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"starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 6:24:08 PM
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creationtalk
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Each evening when it's bedtime, I ask my son (age 7) if he needs anything...no, is he hungry...no. He brushes his teeth, washes his face, takes a bath, gets into bed, I read his story, he plays a little...I tell him lights out and suddenly he is STARVING and must have food...this happens if we ate dinner at 5 pm or 7:30 pm ("bedtime" is 8 pm). He will cry and scream he's starving for literally hours until I let him eat something (usually fruit)...correction does not help. Please note...I DO offer him fruit as soon as he says he's hungry. Usually what he wants is candy or cupcakes, or a TV dinner. He only settles for fruit after this long drawn out battle...which usually has me behaving in ways I really don't want because I'm tired and might still have a lot to do, or have to get up at 4 am for work and need sleep. I'm a single parent, so there isn't anyone who can take over for me.
Suggestions? (Please note: I am asking for suggestions on ways to deal with this specific issue. I do not want anyone telling me I should stay home with my son unless you are planning to pay our bills)
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 6:30:41 PM
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zoebob
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I keep string cheese in the fridge and the kids are all allowed to have one at bedtime. This helps keep that complaint away. Is there something like that that you could just automatically give/offer him at bedtime? However, it sounds like your little guy is just trying to stay up later. I am not sure how to tell you to deal with that one.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 6:34:36 PM
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Karaboo2
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I don't know if you've ever seen the show "Nanny 911" but on there I remember seeing an episode wherein the child had a kit bag ... every night he had to make sure everything he wanted was in that bag (water bottle, stuffie, granola bar, whatever) If it wasn't in that bag, he didn't get to come out to get it -- but he remembered to put it in the bag the next night. He packed his own bag (within reason). After a few nights of this, there was no more pestering for a drink or food or a stuffie or anything else.
Just throwing this out as a possible idea.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 6:38:04 PM
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McGuinessMagee
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Give him a good meal at dinnertime, offer dessert if that's part of your normal routine (I wouldn't add it if it's not normal), and tell him that after dinner is over the only thing on offer is fruit. He can have a drink (although I used to minimise this after a certain time of night too because one of our children had bedwetting issues).
And I would tell him that he will be offered the fruit once. If he refuses it because he's throwing a tantrum about wanting cupcakes he will have nothing.
As an aside, does he carry on like this if a nightlight is left on?
If he doesn't, it may be fear of the dark, rather than food related. This could be dealt with outside of the food issue and you may find you don't even have a food issue anymore if it's about the dark.
If he does still behave this way, even with a light on, then it sounds a lot like a tantrum. And, at least in our household, tantrums don't get responded to by entertaining the issue which the tantrum is about. In fact, if a 'thing' is the cause of disobedience or other misbehaviour the 'thing' would be completely removed from any access whatsoever.
If it's not about the dark, it sounds like your particular 'thing' is sweets after dinnertime.
Kylie 
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 7:18:30 PM
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pbaribeault
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Another thing to remember is that the only "weapon" he has is the noise he can make. It seems that that noise bothers you enough to change your behaviour. Perhaps if you could carry on normally while your son screams his evening away, he wouldn't go to the effort.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/24/2008 9:53:37 PM
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flyboy2610
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I don't mean to sound harsh, but he acts this way because you've taught him he can.
Figure out what his favorite privilege is. Tell him at supper time that if he does not get his snack BEFORE bedtime, he will not get it at all, and if makes the slightest fuss about it after lights out, he will lose that privilege.And he will lose it every night he makes a fuss. Go over this again shortly before bedtime.
I can almost guarantee you he will make a fuss after lights out, just to test you. At the first sound inform him his privilege is revoked. I recommend implementing this on a Friday evening, cause you may not get much sleep that night. But do NOT give in!
He needs to learn that you make the rules, and he must follow them. It can be very tough to break a child of a bad habit, but if you want peace back in your home, ya gots ta did it! 
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/25/2008 1:03:31 AM
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cindybode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flyboy2610
I don't mean to sound harsh, but he acts this way because you've taught him he can.
Figure out what his favorite privilege is. Tell him at supper time that if he does not get his snack BEFORE bedtime, he will not get it at all, and if makes the slightest fuss about it after lights out, he will lose that privilege.And he will lose it every night he makes a fuss. Go over this again shortly before bedtime.
I can almost guarantee you he will make a fuss after lights out, just to test you. At the first sound inform him his privilege is revoked. I recommend implementing this on a Friday evening, cause you may not get much sleep that night. But do NOT give in!
He needs to learn that you make the rules, and he must follow them. It can be very tough to break a child of a bad habit, but if you want peace back in your home, ya gots ta did it!
That's what I was gonna say. He has learned that if he carries on long enough, Mom will give in. You have given him the option of having a snack before bed. You might think about offering something a little more substantial than just fruit - if he really is hungry, then he might do better with some peanut butter crackers or cheese or whatever. If he refuses at that time, then that's it. Get in bed, turn off the lights, and pipe down. If he throws a fit, not only does he not get his snack, but he loses __ the next day. If it were me, I would probably make sure he knew that if Mom is a bit short with him the next day, it's because he was selfish and refused to allow me to sleep.
I understand being tired. Despite being married, I have raised my kids mostly by myself, and I totally get that when it's 11pm and he's still screeching, you are exhausted and you just want him to shut up so you can get some sleep. But if you don't take the time to deal with this now, it's only gonna get worse. As flyboy suggested, start on a night you don't have to get up early the next morning, and stick to your guns.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/25/2008 7:01:09 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
But if you don't take the time to deal with this now, it's only gonna get worse. As flyboy suggested, start on a night you don't have to get up early the next morning, and stick to your guns.
I agree. Nip it in the bud.
Honestly, after teeth are brushed, I don't give anything but water, for dental health reasons. Perhaps that should be the last thing on the bedtime routine, *after* he's been offered a snack. If you offer him a snack just before he goes to bed, and he refuses, and then 10 seconds later starts screaming for food, he's not hungry, he's trying to rule you.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/25/2008 7:56:01 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
He will cry and scream he's starving for literally hours until I let him eat something (usually fruit)...correction does not help. Please note...I DO offer him fruit as soon as he says he's hungry. Usually what he wants is candy or cupcakes, or a TV dinner. He only settles for fruit after this long drawn out battle...which usually has me behaving in ways I really don't want because I'm tired and might still have a lot to do, or have to get up at 4 am for work and need sleep.
I understand why you gave in originally, but the problem is that you gave in.
If he was hungry, he'd have accepted the first thing you offered. The fact that it's usually candy, cupcakes or a TV dinner that he wants shows that we're not talking about hunger here.
Tell him you have a new rule - that there will be NOTHING (not even fruit) after he has cleaned his teeth. That if he wants anything else, it has to be either with his dinner or before he has cleaned his teeth. That after that, nothing will be on offer except a drink of water. No food, nothing at all, not even fruit. I am thinking that because fruit is offered, he thinks other things will be offered too, so rather than just offering fruit, and him thinking he can push for something else, don't offer fruit either.
And if he cries after this, leave him to cry. Tell him he can have a cuddle when he stops, but don't try to pacify him and certainly don't offer him anything. He will soon learn that the new rule is how it's going to be.
Does all this start with the announcement of "lights out"? If so, like McGuinessMagee I wonder if there could be a fear of the dark thing. Instead of "lights out", how about a cuddle, a talk together and a prayer? And does he have a nightlight? With my two, I never had "lights out", I'd say "you can keep your light on as long as you want to" and then would switch it off myself later when they were asleep, in case they forgot. My rule was "keep the light on as long as you like, so long as you're quiet, and stay in your room". This had the effect, not of them staying up really late, but of regulating themselves and being sensible.
< Message edited by manda59 -- 10/25/2008 8:03:14 AM >
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/25/2008 11:20:09 PM
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creationtalk
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Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to implement some of the suggestions and see how it works.
the "lights out" is really kind of an expression. He can leave the light on if he wants, most nights he leaves it on, other nights he turns everything out and complains that I have my office light on and it's keeping him awake.
I have tried taking away privileges...the problem is enforcing it in our situation. The most effective "privilege" is TV or computer time...but he spends his days with a caregiver while I work (two jobs). If it is the days I'm at my primary job, he will be there up to 12 hours on a normal day--sometimes longer. Which means we are home maybe an hour before bedtime, if that. He probably would not watch any TV then anyway, and I cannot enforce a no TV/video rule when he is in another's home. Or he is going to his father's in a couple of days and any restrictions I might have, including bedtime, etc are not enforced.
I had for a very long time the "as long as you are in your room and quiet you can do anything" rule at our house. It worked well, then something happened and he started screaming and crying when he was in his room with the door closed. No idea what. He came home from his father's and wouldn't sleep in the room with the door closed....then the A/C flooded his room; we still have not got the ruined carpet completely out and everything fixed again, so he cannot sleep in his room. He is an asthmatic so I cannot risk keeping him in a room that may have mold, etc. He slept in my room for quite a while and just recently decided to move into the sofa in the living room.
I will say that one reason I have given in on feeding the "starving" child or letting him have water after "bed time" is because I know that if I am thirsty or hungry, no matter how tired I am, I cannot sleep. My son is very like me in so many ways that I think he may be like this also. I may simply make it a habit of feeding him some snack just before sending him to bed.
As for feeding him sweets before bed...the main reason that I won't is because he eats things with sugar all day...dessert, snacks, etc. If he had a lot less sweet stuff during the day, I'd probably be feeding him something like cookies and milk before bed because the combination of sugar and protein is supposed to promote sleep.
And maybe as some have hinted, he's not hungry for food but for cuddles with mom, and I need to remember that and make it a point to make more time for him. I work so that I can provide for him but sometimes I get so wrapped up in working to provide for him that I fail to provide what he needs the most.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/25/2008 11:26:42 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
I had for a very long time the "as long as you are in your room and quiet you can do anything" rule at our house. It worked well, then something happened and he started screaming and crying when he was in his room with the door closed.
My daughter is 15, and has never slept with her door closed in her life! And my son only started closing his door at night when he was about 13.
quote:
I will say that one reason I have given in on feeding the "starving" child or letting him have water after "bed time" is because I know that if I am thirsty or hungry, no matter how tired I am, I cannot sleep. My son is very like me in so many ways that I think he may be like this also. I may simply make it a habit of feeding him some snack just before sending him to bed.
He may be, but if he has had his dinner only half an hour or so before, he's surely not going to be hungry!
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/26/2008 12:41:38 AM
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nicole6598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
I had for a very long time the "as long as you are in your room and quiet you can do anything" rule at our house. It worked well, then something happened and he started screaming and crying when he was in his room with the door closed.
My daughter is 15, and has never slept with her door closed in her life! And my son only started closing his door at night when he was about 13.
quote:
I will say that one reason I have given in on feeding the "starving" child or letting him have water after "bed time" is because I know that if I am thirsty or hungry, no matter how tired I am, I cannot sleep. My son is very like me in so many ways that I think he may be like this also. I may simply make it a habit of feeding him some snack just before sending him to bed.
He may be, but if he has had his dinner only half an hour or so before, he's surely not going to be hungry!
I didn't sleep with my door closed til I was about 13, but my daughter is 4 and she will scream out if her door is left open!
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/28/2008 1:26:20 AM
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locomom
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It really is possible for a child to be hungry a short time after dinner. It happens when you have a child who has a very high metabolism (like her Dad), especially when she or he is growing. We resorted to ice cream to provide enough calories a number of times just to provide enough calories. My daughter, up until a year ago, would eat 6 times a day - 3 meals and 3 snacks. She is now 5'2" and 100 lbs. Her first year of college she had to learn to manage her calories to maintain her wait. She even went to the student health center after her weight dropped to 90 lbs. She had a hard time convincing them of the true nature of her problem!
Having said that, it seems to me that the problem is not about food. He is very vociferously seeking your attention. Given your short evening time with him, I suspect he's a little boy in need of some cuddles and fun with you. Next time he starts the "I'm starving" routine, ask him if he's really hungry or if he just wants to spend 10 minutes more time with you. Try to sneak in little minutes of attention as many ways as possible. Leave him a note in his lunch. Put 1 Hershey hug and 1 Hershey kiss in his lunch, etc. Play a short game or read a short book when you get home. Try doing more crockpot or simpler meals and let him help make dinner.
I'm hoping others can make more suggestions.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/28/2008 10:10:43 AM
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Row1
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"And maybe as some have hinted, he's not hungry for food but for cuddles with mom, and I need to remember that and make it a point to make more time for him. I work so that I can provide for him but sometimes I get so wrapped up in working to provide for him that I fail to provide what he needs the most."
Normally, my answers would be just like other people's answers here - I am farily strict, and don't think it is good for kids to have this kind of control.
BUT
My impression REALLY is that the issue is one of contact and affection. he is at a tender age, and you are away from home a lot.
Maybe: think of some ways to have closer connection with him. It is difficult, I am sure, because when you ARE home, you are probably not too energetic, plus have a lot to do. So, you have to be creative.
MAYBE: adding in some affetion elsewhere in the day could decrease this manipulation to get affection in this night-time way (that people have noted is continuing because it works). Maybe: you could have a planned phone conversation with him for a few minutes mid-day. At your lunch break, while driving from one job to the other, etc.
This could be planned for when he gets home, or daycare possibly could agree if they know it is part of your parenting strategy.
Also: once a day, he could get to open and read a letter you wrote him. You take a couple minutes each day - break, lunch, whenever - and write some note about how you love him, you are proud of him, a nice memory, and maybe draw a picture - anything: "I drew this tree for you" anything. You seal up the letter. Leave it for him to open when he gets home, or at some certain time at daycare, etc. A fifty-pack of envelopes (will last almost 2 months) is only a couple dollars, and crayons are only a couple dollars a box (will last until he finds them and tries to eat them or puts them in his nose, ear, or the blender whichever comes first).
Do you do chores with him? He could help you clean the table and wash dishes every evening. It would go a little slower, but might make the time wasted at bedtime decrease.
Those are a couple ideas, off the top of my head, for providing more affectionate contact without too much energy or expense.
Someone mentioned nanny 911 - I don't think I have seen that one, but I have seen SuperNanny. Supernanny has similar styles of discipline, but she always makes sure that the parents spend 'quality time' with the kids.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/28/2008 5:38:17 PM
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creationtalk
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Thanks to all who have replied. Things have been better the past few days and I'm hoping that will continue when he comes back from being with his father.
About the door closed: my son has always had the choice as to whether or not he closed the door. The only condition on the door being left open, is his light has to go off when I go to bed. If he is asleep, he has to agree to me turning it off, if he is awake, it goes off anyway. If the door is closed, he can do as he pleases with the light. This is because I am a very light sleeper, little sounds or light will keep me awake.
What I've done: When it's time for my son to get ready for bed, he is offered a snack, we get out his music CD and we dance to the music (sometimes he dances for me or we dance together), we read his book and cuddle, then he is to lay down quietly or play quietly until he falls asleep. He's getting to bed later than I really want (can't start earlier because we usually aren't home), but without the fights. Not to mention I think that it is good for both of us to get the exercise.
I really like the idea of writing him a note or letter that he can read during the day. I may start that very soon...possibly send one in his bag to his father's, if not then when he comes back. It will also go a long way to encouraging him to read, with which we are struggling.
Calling while I'm at work is difficult...often we are so busy we do not have time for anything other than work, and it is a "community" phone--no place private, and personal calls are discouraged...cell phones not allowed in the building.
If anyone can think up more ideas, I am ready to hear them. I really want to make bedtime a positive experience for both of us.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/29/2008 2:13:01 AM
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scrappy11
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I would just like to encourage you. As the parents of a 12 yo dd, a 9 yo ds, and a 2 yo dd, we have been through many interesting power struggles, particularly at bedtime. I can totally relate to your statement of not liking your behavior when you have this battle with him and you're tired and you have other things to do, etc. I am re-living the worst of this currently with my 2 yo -- you try to get them what they need, then all of a sudden you find they've got you jumping through hoops, and you're frustrated and augh! It's so hard -- how do you draw the line between getting them what they need (knowing what that is) and going too far? Sometimes you're far down the road before you realize what's happening!
So, I don't really have any additional advice; I think the previous posters gave you some great tips. I know that it is really hard to be firm sometimes, but in the end consistency should pay off.
I wish you well, and have fun dancing!
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/29/2008 3:34:53 AM
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locomom
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You also can reward him with 10-15 minutes extra cuddle time for reading or just talking depending on his behavior during getting ready for bed. Pestering you and fussing result in a loss of this extra time. However, I might wait a while before doing this if you really feel his motivation for the last minute "I'm starving" and carry on are a real cry for attention. Hopefully you can take advantage of this opportunity to teach him further communication and self-understanding skills.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/29/2008 11:00:16 PM
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MrsTracy72
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Can you schedule in a small healthy snack as part of the bedtime routine? Just start 15 minutes earlier and if they accept the snack, then fine, and if not, they can go hungry, but are not allowed to complain.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/30/2008 8:51:43 AM
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Row1
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quote:
You also can reward him with 10-15 minutes extra cuddle time for reading or just talking depending on his behavior during getting ready for bed.
This may not be a big deal...but
In my opinion, I don't think that affection should be used as a reward. Showing your love should come wherever and however you can make it happen. To me, it is like using food as a reward or punishment - I would not withhold dinner for bad behavior. There are just some things our kids need from us no matter how they are behaving (and no matter how many hours we need to put in to how many jobs, etc.).
A kid needs love and attention. Discipline also, but there always has to be the security of affection and love. If you have time to give 15 minutes as a reward, just give the 15 minutes every day anyway. It will go a long way toward his security, and decrease this night-time problem.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/30/2008 9:00:09 AM
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Row1
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quote:
Calling while I'm at work is difficult...often we are so busy we do not have time for anything other than work, and it is a "community" phone--no place private, and personal calls are discouraged...cell phones not allowed in the building.
This is hard to understand.
You have two jobs. You can call going from one job to the next job. You have to have some kind of break for lunch. You can call from the bathroom. You can explain to your supervisor that you work two jobs, and your child at this tender age needs contact with you or he gets whiney at bedtime, so please allow you to make one five minute call per day. They probably will, but you need to get really assertive. I don't know your circumstances, but this sounds kind of extreme - they better be paying you well for these work conditions.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/30/2008 10:21:48 PM
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creationtalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Row1
quote:
Calling while I'm at work is difficult...often we are so busy we do not have time for anything other than work, and it is a "community" phone--no place private, and personal calls are discouraged...cell phones not allowed in the building.
This is hard to understand.
You have two jobs. You can call going from one job to the next job. You have to have some kind of break for lunch. You can call from the bathroom. You can explain to your supervisor that you work two jobs, and your child at this tender age needs contact with you or he gets whiney at bedtime, so please allow you to make one five minute call per day. They probably will, but you need to get really assertive. I don't know your circumstances, but this sounds kind of extreme - they better be paying you well for these work conditions.
This is not a case of some arbitrary rule about personal phone calls; we are conducting classified work. It is a security risk to conduct phone conversations on an open line when there may be classified conversations going on around me. I cannot call from the bathroom. There are no phones there...as I previously stated, cell phones are not allowed in the building. Although I "officially" have a lunch break, the days when I actually have time to take a lunch break are few and far between--it's a matter of taking a break and having to stay later to make up for it, or working until the job is done so I can leave. It's been only in the past 6 months or so since the new hires started to get to the point where they could work independently that I could actually leave within 30 minutes of the time I was scheduled most days. It's getting better.
My second job is teaching. Obviously I cannot call during class, and on mornings I teach, if my son is with me, I spend the afternoon with him either at home or doing something fun. I only work both jobs when my son is with his father. Most of the "work" for the teaching is done at home either while he is otherwise occupied or asleep (or SHOULD be asleep). When I need to work during times he is up, I try to take regular breaks to do something with him--go outside and play baseball, play a board game, work on a craft, do a science experiment, etc.
quote:
You also can reward him with 10-15 minutes extra cuddle time for reading or just talking depending on his behavior during getting ready for bed.
This already kind of happens, though it is more a case of natural consequences. We always read together when he is getting ready for bed. Usually I read to him, but sometimes he will read to me. If he resists getting ready for bed for a long time, then I don't have time to read much...and some days I am too tired to read by that point. I don't really want the time and affection to be a reward...I want to spend time with him...the only time that cuddle time gets cut short is if he is physically rough. He can roughhouse with his father when he's there, but I don't like it and won't encourage it.
quote:
Can you schedule in a small healthy snack as part of the bedtime routine? Just start 15 minutes earlier and if they accept the snack, then fine, and if not, they can go hungry, but are not allowed to complain.
I am working on doing this now. When he says he is hungry, I'll tell him what he can have (usually fruit or cheese). If he says he doesn't want it, he wants something different, then I say if he's not willing to take what is offered, then he must not be that hungry, go to bed...then he will argue, plead, reason, tantrum...and ending up eating the fruit.
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/30/2008 10:36:06 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6145
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
I am working on doing this now. When he says he is hungry, I'll tell him what he can have (usually fruit or cheese). If he says he doesn't want it, he wants something different, then I say if he's not willing to take what is offered, then he must not be that hungry, go to bed...then he will argue, plead, reason, tantrum...and ending up eating the fruit.
Schedule it in BEFORE he goes to bed. Tell him it's the last chance to have a snack before he cleans his teeth and goes to bed. Tell him that if he says no to fruit or cheese, there will be nothing - not even fruit or cheese. And stick to it. Don't reward the arguing etc even by still giving him the fruit.
_____________________________
"I think Manda and I are on the same page"
crankius, January 2009
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RE: "starving" child at bedtime - 10/31/2008 12:01:06 AM
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MrsTracy72
Posts: 2059
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
I am working on doing this now. When he says he is hungry, I'll tell him what he can have (usually fruit or cheese). If he says he doesn't want it, he wants something different, then I say if he's not willing to take what is offered, then he must not be that hungry, go to bed...then he will argue, plead, reason, tantrum...and ending up eating the fruit.
The way we do it in our house is when they say they are hungry, they get a choice of two things. If they say they don't want those things, then we tell them they aren't hungry and to go to bed. It took about a week of standing firm, but once they figured out that we were not going to budge, they started to either take what we offered them or go to bed hungry. My daughter is so stubborn, she will go hungry before she gives in to us. But now she does it quietly.
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