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66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 1:06:48 AM
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RedStone
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In another thread the subject came up...about the 66% of New Yorkers who essentially reject the official version of what happened on 9/11. Some were expressing disbelief about this statistic.
But the fact is...not only did this Zogby poll show that 66% reject the official government-approved conspiracy theory (yes, all of those who buy into the "official story" are, in fact, conspiracy theorists)...
...beyond that, fully HALF of New Yorkers believe the government, at a minimum, had foreknowledge of the attacks.
From Zogby International-- http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855
"Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals."
"Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5."
"The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%)."
---
Another Zogby poll just recently showed that fully 42% of Americans all across the nation believe there has been a "9/11 cover-up" http://www.zogby.com/features/features.dbm?ID=231
An additional 10% "aren't sure" if there was a cover-up or not.
---
I've seen a lot of criticism of so-called "conspiracy theories". Truth be told, I have no interest in "theories" either. Now..."facts"-- that's another story.
One of the theories out there about 9/11 is that...there was this guy (Bin Laden) who seems always to be wearing what appears to be a bathrobe(?), carrying a cell phone, and sitting in a cave 10,000 miles away...who pulled off the entirety of 9/11.
As conspiracy theories go, the one about "the guy in the bathrobe with a cell phone" takes the cake, for me.
Here is an entire website of architects and engineers who summarily reject the official theory and have concluded regarding "controlled demolition"-- http://ae911truth.org/
And I don't know how anyone could read through this list of 9/11 anomalies put together by 9/11 researchers, and not come away with serious questions about what we've been told by our 'leaders' about this tragic day. http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/topanomalies.html
Also: http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html
Also of interest from Zogby-- "On May 26th the Toronto Star reported a national poll showing that 63% of Canadians are also convinced US leaders had 'prior knowledge' of the attacks yet declined to act."
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 2:09:36 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 436
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1. This is the umteenth time someone has visited and fexed this forum with this conspiracy theory. Those who believe in it are going to believe in it no matter what the real facts are. They are going to believe it not so much on whether it has any real credibility or not but because of politics.
2. IMO you are reading way too much into this poll that is really there. The fact that such a percentage of people are scepitcal about the official/ government report on 911 (IMO) reflects more on the low opinion and trust that people have towards the government and politicians than anything else.
In short this poll does not reflect your apparent theory that it some how gives greater creedance to your conspiracy theory. It reflects the fact that people are not as trusting of government and politicians as they once may have been.
3. Any report put together by politicians, from both political parties, in Washington DC is not going to reveal all the facts. It certainly will not fix responsibility on those that truely deserve to be held responsibile.
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To whom much is given, much is expected.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 8:11:05 AM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1683
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nice mischaracterization of facts in the title of the thread. Specifically the article says
"66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress "
That does not in any way say that they reject the official story. It means that they have unanswered questions. You can try to spin the figures however you want but the facts will remain. The way the polls were worded were also poor for making any kind of conclusion in my book since they gave an either or approach and if you don't fit wholy into one slot you end up in the other which leaves the actual middle ground, where most people actually stand, completely unrepresented in the poll.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 9:38:23 AM
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brotherbrian
Posts: 825
Joined: 3/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
In another thread the subject came up...about the 66% of New Yorkers who essentially reject the official version of what happened on 9/11. Some were expressing disbelief about this statistic.
But the fact is...not only did this Zogby poll show that 66% reject the official government-approved conspiracy theory (yes, all of those who buy into the "official story" are, in fact, conspiracy theorists)...
...beyond that, fully HALF of New Yorkers believe the government, at a minimum, had foreknowledge of the attacks.
From Zogby International-- http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855
"Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals."
"Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5."
"The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%)."
---
Another Zogby poll just recently showed that fully 42% of Americans all across the nation believe there has been a "9/11 cover-up" http://www.zogby.com/features/features.dbm?ID=231
An additional 10% "aren't sure" if there was a cover-up or not.
---
I've seen a lot of criticism of so-called "conspiracy theories". Truth be told, I have no interest in "theories" either. Now..."facts"-- that's another story.
One of the theories out there about 9/11 is that...there was this guy (Bin Laden) who seems always to be wearing what appears to be a bathrobe(?), carrying a cell phone, and sitting in a cave 10,000 miles away...who pulled off the entirety of 9/11.
As conspiracy theories go, the one about "the guy in the bathrobe with a cell phone" takes the cake, for me.
Here is an entire website of architects and engineers who summarily reject the official theory and have concluded regarding "controlled demolition"-- http://ae911truth.org/
And I don't know how anyone could read through this list of 9/11 anomalies put together by 9/11 researchers, and not come away with serious questions about what we've been told by our 'leaders' about this tragic day. http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/topanomalies.html
Also: http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html
Also of interest from Zogby-- "On May 26th the Toronto Star reported a national poll showing that 63% of Canadians are also convinced US leaders had 'prior knowledge' of the attacks yet declined to act."
New Yorkers also elected Hillary the Carpet Bagger and Rangel--I take that as a sign of impaired judgement.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 10:12:33 AM
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michlang
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
New Yorkers also elected Hillary the Carpet Bagger and Rangel--I take that as a sign of impaired judgement.
Wasn't there a state that kept electing Strong Thurman? Oh wait, that was one of those red ones...
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 11:33:07 AM
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cog41
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From: tejas
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quote:
Wasn't there a state that kept electing Strong Thurman? Oh wait, that was one of those red ones...
There is also a state that keeps electing "former" Klansman Robert C. Byrd to the once prestigous US Senate.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 3:26:45 PM
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brooklynsblessed1
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This stat is convuluted (so called stat) 9/11 drastically changed NYC---on the morning of 9/11 I voted in the primary (yes, these facists even through off a NY election that day) for a liberal, pro-union latino dem---after that I began to see the weakness of dems & since then turned to the GOP & conservative candidates.
Most of my life I was an extreme/atheist left winger, arrested @ protests,etc..
After 9/11 I stood literally side by side w/ the NYPD,FD,EMS & my fellow citizens @ a memorial service for the 1st NYer killed (a Catholic priest giving last rites although warned to leave); started wearing (& still do) patriotic hats, etc.;rallied w/ the NYPD for pay raises (having a permanent assault on a NJ police officer on my record from my pre-college days & joining them in booing Hillary-having been a former Bill-Gore volunteer); & having spoken to 100s of my fellow NYers have never had anyone buy into the Rosie O'Donnell, et. al kooks conspiracy theories.
I still get tears in my eyes when I see documentaries or films about that day.
NY & probably even our muslim communities wouldn't by a 66% margin think it was some kind of govt. conspiracy.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 4:09:34 PM
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rhippie
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From: Rich The Hippie
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As for the OP and the 66% that believe it was a government conspiracy.....let's not forget all of the folks that think that the Devil doesn't exist or the large percentage of folks that claim to be going to heaven, especially when a study of the evidence would prove otherwise!!
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 5:23:41 PM
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RedStone
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I posted this because there have been these repeated, disparaging references to a "few lone nuts" who question 9/11. That is the furthest thing from the truth.
There are also many prominent government 'whistle-blowers' who have spoken out--
Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of Treasury under President Reagan and author of the bestseller "The Tyranny of Good Intentions" has stated:
"Any physicist or engineer who maintains that buildings can “pancake” at free fall speed has obviously been bought and paid for or is a total incompetent fool."
Dr. Robert Bowman, the former Head of Advanced Space Programs ("Star Wars") who won over 40% of the popular vote in his recent bid for Congress, strictly on a "9/11 Was An Inside Job" platform:
"Why did John Ashcroft and top Pentagon officials cancel plans to fly commercial airlines the morning of 9/11? If they knew what was about to happen, why wasn’t it stopped?"
"What was President Bush doing sitting in a classroom for half an hour after he was told that the country was under attack? Why didn’t the Secret Service rush him away from where everyone knew he was, unless they knew he wasn’t a target?"
Then there's Morgan Reynolds Ph.D., professor emeritus at Texas A&M and a former Chief Economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term:
"Fact: Authorities abstained from standard operating procedures to respond to hijackings for a crucial 80 minutes."
"Fact: Collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC 7 building could not have been caused by the two airliner crashes and subsequent jet fuel fires, leaving demolition (controlled explosions) as the best explanation. Further, government officials prevented a forensic examination of the debris, especially the steel, suggesting a cover-up."
Barbara Honegger, former top Presidential advisor to Reagan, and who resigned in protest over the October Surprise fiasco. She later wrote a book detailing all of this, as to how George Bush Sr. arranged to have the American hostages held in Iran until after the Carter/Reagen election.
Her comments about 9/11:
"From the start, the Bush Administration has insisted that anything like the 'planes-as-weapons' scenario of 9-11 was 'unthinkable' before 9-11. That is a huge lie. On Sept. 11, 2001 they had a brand new counter-terror emergency response plan in place at the Pentagon for exactly that scenario, and had a counter-terror 'war-game' set to begin on exactly that scenario that very morning in the nation's capitol." [Wow! Good grief!]
And Catherine Austin Fitts, former Assistant Secretary of Housing under President George Bush Sr.:
"Something is rising from the ashes of September 11: the spectre of questions that will haunt our country until answered." and "A full 66 percent of New York City residents in the survey agreed the case of 9/11 should be reopened by Congress"
The list of government insiders, whistle-blowers, experts, scientists, researchers, eyewitnesses, and investigators goes on and on. But they have been forbidden entry into Pleasantville.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 5:26:39 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1835
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oh wow...no wonder they say ignorance is no excuse for not obeying the law. C'mon people rise up and be who God calls us to be.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/5/2007 5:28:33 PM
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tony.nz
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Well, the two linked articles between them disclose a large amount of uncertainty, and show that the majority are inclined to at least have some scepticism about the official version. And, the OP does raise a good point, should we treat the official version as a conspiracy story? It is, after all, a story about a conspiracy! Further more, this story was used (rightly or wrongly) as the reason for action in Afghanistan and Iraq. Which appears to have further ramifications, specifically advancing the causes of those who make money from military expenditure and oil. And, depending on your point of view, may have ramifications in terms of leading to a one world government.
Maybe, it is just a matter of which conspiracy story we are most inclined to believe.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 2:37:58 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1072
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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An majority of college and university profs do not believe there is a God, or atleast not the Christian God. Does this mean that because so many believe such it must make it true? RedStones' attitude would seem to argue that very point. Why is it that you use "names" of people to support your view, but when a whole lot of names do not support your views, you disregard them?
RedStone do you know what Ad Verecundiam means?
Do you know why you are in violation of that fallacy with your last post?
Chances are you can not honestly answer those two questions, which is why, esspecialy with the former question, it is so hard to have a rational debate with you.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 3:04:04 AM
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RedStone
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Boy, I sure wish a few of you folks could calm down with all the jabs, the pokes, the poison, the bitterness. Can’t you have a normal calm, civil conversation with someone, Stephanos? Good grief.
I’m happy to have an exchange with you, just stop with all the slapping and smacking already.
I carefully explained here why I posted the stats—Because many here had made the claim that only a “few lone nuts” didn’t believe in the officially sanctioned conspiracy theory...about Bin Laden.
Now…that is not really a valid argument but…I’m not running into much rational thought here so I attempt to approach these folks on their terms by showing that there are in fact, more than just a “few” of us.
You’re right though---in terms of pure logical thinking, if even only one person believes the right way, it doesn’t matter if billions believe a different way. The truth is the truth.
BUT THEN…as you can see in their responses here…they came back with—“Yeah but most New Yorkers are liberal wackos…” and other similar comments. Therefore, I am showing them that many of their own people…conservative leaders in government, are also rejecting the Bin Laden story.
What is it you’re missing about that progression? It’s just the normal progression of a discussion, Stephanos. My couple of posts here are not the ‘be all, end all’ contributions to the 9/11 debate. You’re being way too harsh…approaching the whole thing in this ‘sawed off’ manner.
I’m more than happy to have some (calm, non-insulting) discussion about the pros and cons of 9/11. If you looked more carefully, you would’ve noticed that I accompanied each individual that I named, with a very nice synopsis of some of their own argumentation…much of it, I would think, is rather thought-provoking
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 8:28:51 AM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1683
Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
I carefully explained here why I posted the stats—Because many here had made the claim that only a “few lone nuts” didn’t believe in the officially sanctioned conspiracy theory...about Bin Laden.
The problem is that you are attempting to use the stats to back a view that alqaeda didn't carry out the attacks. The actual 66% poll numbers reflect the number who have unanswered questions. You are taking an unrelated number and attempting to use it to back your position.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 10:30:33 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1072
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
Boy, I sure wish a few of you folks could calm down with all the jabs, the pokes, the poison, the bitterness. Can’t you have a normal calm, civil conversation with someone, Stephanos? Good grief.
I’m happy to have an exchange with you, just stop with all the slapping and smacking already.
I carefully explained here why I posted the stats—Because many here had made the claim that only a “few lone nuts” didn’t believe in the officially sanctioned conspiracy theory...about Bin Laden.
Now…that is not really a valid argument but…I’m not running into much rational thought here so I attempt to approach these folks on their terms by showing that there are in fact, more than just a “few” of us.
You’re right though---in terms of pure logical thinking, if even only one person believes the right way, it doesn’t matter if billions believe a different way. The truth is the truth.
BUT THEN…as you can see in their responses here…they came back with—“Yeah but most New Yorkers are liberal wackos…” and other similar comments. Therefore, I am showing them that many of their own people…conservative leaders in government, are also rejecting the Bin Laden story.
What is it you’re missing about that progression? It’s just the normal progression of a discussion, Stephanos. My couple of posts here are not the ‘be all, end all’ contributions to the 9/11 debate. You’re being way too harsh…approaching the whole thing in this ‘sawed off’ manner.
I’m more than happy to have some (calm, non-insulting) discussion about the pros and cons of 9/11. If you looked more carefully, you would’ve noticed that I accompanied each individual that I named, with a very nice synopsis of some of their own argumentation…much of it, I would think, is rather thought-provoking
I will take this as a no to my two questions. And yet you wonder why I have a hard time trying to have a rational discussion with you on certian topics.
Did you even look up what Ad Verecundiam truly means? I will give you a hint, none of your people you referenced would fall under this. Want the answer? It is called Appeal to Inappropriate Authority. These people you named while apart of the Beltway food chain, have no credibility when it comes to 9/11. None of them have any first hand expeirience with 9/11. And yet you hear from someone like Brooklyn who does. I could ask my little brother for his thoughts on thermodynamics. And he could make things up and give me a few of his thoughts on the subject. But seeing as he has no education, no training, no experience in the feild of thermodynamics, nothing he says about it would be correct. He could have hundreds of degrees in other subjects, but if he has no training in thermodynamics it is still wrong.
As a historian, i know and utilize the difference between primary and secondary sources. In that, it is greatly preferable to use the actual guts of a issue, rather than read about someones thoughts on the guts of an issue. But furthermore, when you DO use secondary sources, use some that are appropraite! I will not go to someone who is an expert in Japanese History, for imformation and opinions on Colonial America.
The problem with your so called experts on 9/11 is they have no appropriate authority to speak on such a topic, or rather they have no reason for their opinions to hold any weight. It is well and fine for them to have a personal opinion, we all have personal opinions. But for you to take their word as truth, is Ad Verecundiam at its finest.
We on this board are frankly tired of 9/11 threads. We have had them before. We have argued them before. ANd here is a big hint for you. Those who come here trying to argue these points. None of them are still here. Truth wins out in the end.
So if we do not show you all our documentation on refuting every point that you will try to make on 9/11 to show it was a "false flag" (which BTW is frankly offensive to some and I would ask you do not continue to use it), it is not because we can not, or that your arguments are too good. NO it is because we are tired of saying the same thing over and over and over again.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 10:44:39 AM
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Katie-Scarlet
Posts: 158
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quote:
66% of New Yorkers who essentially reject the official version of what happened on 9/11.
There was a poll on this? Hmmm... I guess one would have to take into account New Yorkers like me who didn't know about it and so did not vote. Given the fact that I can gaurantee there are many more like me I don't think any poll is correct.
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Are you ready to join the war? Know your enemy, prepare yourself.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 10:47:39 AM
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brooklynsblessed1
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^^^Quick poll as another NYer I have never personally heard any other NYer discuss 9/11 as some kooky conspiracy theory..have you/personally or any other NYer?????
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Is Obama devotee of monkey-god idol?/Obama Religious Affairs Adviser: 'Jesus Was an Illegal Alien'
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 1:48:23 PM
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RedStone
Posts: 199
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Stephanos—
If this is a tiresome subject, then why do you stop by? Don’t come to this thread if you’re ‘done’ with this subject. Could the logic be any simpler? You say-- “We on this board are frankly tired…” You speak for the whole board? I’m on this board and I’m not “tired”. (?)
And if it’s true there are no dissenters left then…that’s too bad. As I said before—All you have then is a big happy choir, with everyone singing in unison. One would think you would welcome varying views since this is a “discussion” board as opposed to an “agreement” board.
You setting up a straw man when you refer to these Republican VIPs…as “so-called experts”. I didn’t call them ‘experts’. You also attempt to disqualify me and disqualfy these Repubs…from any discussion about the inner workings of 9/11. That is absurd. You can’t go around disinviting American citizens from the townhall meeting.
If the discussion of thermodynamics (your illustration choice) is so completely beyond our ability to assess…then how come YOU are able to assess it? You make the assessment that this subject is too complicated for us mere laymen. How do you know? Maybe it’s within reach of the common man. Maybe if I sit down and read through some materials, over time I am able to get a good grip on the basic facts.
You’re using a typical ‘liberal’ elitist argument that…only those with the “proper credentials” are allowed to make judgment calls. They justify their entire “power elite” philosophy on such. That’s not going to happen on my watch. The basic facts of thermodynamics are within the grasp of normal people like me…otherwise the experts, both pro and con, wouldn’t bother trying to explain it to us, would they?
Everlearning—
I’m missing your point. The poll says 66% of New Yorkers are calling for a new investigation. That’s tantamount to rejecting the current ‘version’ of 9/11 events. They want a new version.
And I see no way of ‘spinning’ the other stat--- 49% believe that there were those in our government who had foreknowledge of the attack. In other words, 49% believe there are evil psychopaths who sat there knowing thousands of Americans would die…and they alerted no one. That is believed by 49% of New Yorkers, according to this Zogby poll.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 1:53:28 PM
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brotherbrian
Posts: 825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: michlang
quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
New Yorkers also elected Hillary the Carpet Bagger and Rangel--I take that as a sign of impaired judgement.
Wasn't there a state that kept electing Strong Thurman? Oh wait, that was one of those red ones...
It's "Strom", and that state isn't in question.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 1:58:38 PM
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brotherbrian
Posts: 825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
As for the OP and the 66% that believe it was a government conspiracy.....let's not forget all of the folks that think that the Devil doesn't exist or the large percentage of folks that claim to be going to heaven, especially when a study of the evidence would prove otherwise!!
Okay--if you subscribe to the "inside job" theory, please give me a couple of reasons why people smart enough to plan and execute such a thing would be DUMB enough to plan a straight down drop for the demolition of Towers one and two, KNOWING that would look "fishy" to the Tinfoil Hat Brigade?
A list of pros and cons for that type of demolition would be helpful.
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RE: 66% of New York rejects official 9/11 yarn. - 7/6/2007 1:59:27 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1683
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
Everlearning—
I’m missing your point. The poll says 66% of New Yorkers are calling for a new investigation. That’s tantamount to rejecting the current ‘version’ of 9/11 events. They want a new version.
No it specifically stated that the new yorkers have unanswered questions, not that they don't believe the official version.
quote:
And I see no way of ‘spinning’ the other stat--- 49% believe that there were those in our government who had foreknowledge of the attack. In other words, 49% believe there are evil psychopaths who sat there knowing thousands of Americans would die…and they alerted no one. That is believed by 49% of New Yorkers, according to this Zogby poll.
Having foreknowledge that we were a target of islamic terrorists (the word DUH comes to mind) does not mean we could have stopped them, nor does it mean that the government is a part of the attacks. These are people looking at it all in retrospect saying well they should have monitored all flights or some such, well we have trouble doing that now with all of the people whining about rights, how do you think that searching arab travelers would have gone over pre-attack. Then what would have happened if they had been planning a completely different kind of attack? See it is easy to monday morning quarterback the whole situation and say what should have been done but it is something completely different to actually deal with the situation in real time.
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When you go through menopause they don't tell you what you are becoming. 
