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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/1/2008 1:07:42 PM
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rcjames
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I do not see how any "Christian" Catholic, Evangelical, or Reformed could vote for someone so firmly intent on killing the unborn, being born, and just born innocent children and using their tax money for the carnage.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/1/2008 4:43:22 PM
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tinydancer2
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I do come with a different perspective that it seems that nations that was colonized and Roman Catholic church as the first church on their lands are the nations the now days abortion is illegal with no expections or with few exceptions. Most Latin American nations polls reggarding abortion laws says it should not modify it and it must to remain illegal.
And I do think in the same nations death penalty is not allowed but life in prison.
Abortion laws around the world
I sure conclude in my heart and mind that USA is not a Christian nation anymore for a while and I do think there is washing of hands as Pilates did just because we choose a pro-life party and those elected Representatives have not doing much to change the laws or if not possible change the laws, come up with vote and the decide who is the ones who want abortion and who are the ones who does not. And if is really women choice issue than let just women to vote and then we will settle that and it may go like in the ladies DL: organ donor and pro-choice.
It just not make any sense really how politicize abortion that is a sin, and the way it is dealth in this country goes as a coletive sin from 1 party and everybody else but not "me". And it gets morbid in details about learly or late abortions and how the baby will die, but each detail goes into documents and politicians vote and discuss and all of it dealth in the most horrible ice cold manner of execution..Lord have mercy!
Where abortion is illegal for exemple in Brasil, the ones who go to jail are the women and "the doctor" (and maybe a relative if the women is a minor..) but mostly the women go to pay the penalty for the killing of her baby.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/1/2008 10:13:36 PM
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mapachito13
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What have Republicans done to reverse Roe? We have 2/3rds of the judges appointed by pro-life Presidents? We don't need the administration or congress to reverse it, just the nine men and women of the court. Where have been all the Republican's administrations (3) efforts to bring forth a suit before SCOTUS to give Roe the death it deserves?
It's just a political flag for Republicans to wave while they never really do anything about stopping it - not limiting it or withholding fundung for it - STOPPING IT!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/1/2008 10:31:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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The Republican's lack of resolve on the issue makes it ok to support it?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 7:44:59 AM
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Born_Again
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I do not see how any "Christian" Catholic, Evangelical, or Reformed could vote for someone so firmly intent on killing the unborn, being born, and just born innocent children and using their tax money for the carnage.
Thanks
RC
If you bring abortion , then death penalty should also dictate the decision. I know some of you “evangelical Christians” believe death penalty is Biblical, however Catholic strongly believe death penalty is a sin. Catholic can’t support either party.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 7:58:27 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The Republican's lack of resolve on the issue makes it ok to support it?
I am not supporting it but since, by your own admission, the Republicans lack the resolve to fight for one of their planks in their party platform, it makes the issue moot as a source of who to choose to put in office. This issue is not going to change until SCOTUS reverses itself and they need to rule on a suit brought forth before them to do that.
I am not going to put another politician in office just because he "says he's pro-life" but lacks the resolve to do anything about that and then destroys the economy and gets us involved in costly foreign wars that have no bearing on defeating Osama!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 8:41:50 AM
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ken1906_4
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From: Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The Republican's lack of resolve on the issue makes it ok to support it?
I am not supporting it but since, by your own admission, the Republicans lack the resolve to fight for one of their planks in their party platform, it makes the issue moot as a source of who to choose to put in office. This issue is not going to change until SCOTUS reverses itself and they need to rule on a suit brought forth before them to do that.
I am not going to put another politician in office just because he "says he's pro-life" but lacks the resolve to do anything about that and then destroys the economy and gets us involved in costly foreign wars that have no bearing on defeating Osama!
Republican politicians use abortion as a way to convict Christians to vote for them, as if they're the Holy Spirit or something. Shouting from the hills, "I'M THE PRO-LIFE CANDIDATE", then once in office abortion goes to the back of the line. They will continue to pimp anti-abortion rhetoric from now until Jesus comes back, but unfortunately it will never be outlawed. Republican politicians need abortion to exist because without it many of them have nothing else to run on. A republican politician could suck at everything when it comes to moral (abortion excluded of course), social, economical, domestic and foreign issue, but he/she will still get a free pass as long as he/she is against abortion. Getting rid of abortion is a false fantasy to keep us feeling guilty and convicted, so they can retain power. That is what this is really about, unsincere politicians using our faith as a means to gain and maintain power. I played that game in 2004 and I'm still kicking myself for help putting that "donkey's backside" in the white house. 
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
True colors are being revealed
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 8:59:51 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
If you bring abortion , then death penalty should also dictate the decision. I know some of you “evangelical Christians” believe death penalty is Biblical, however Catholic strongly believe death penalty is a sin. Catholic can’t support either party.
Equating the murder of an innocent baby to the death of a cnvicted felon is just plain silly or else just truely uninformed .
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:03:56 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
If you bring abortion , then death penalty should also dictate the decision. I know some of you “evangelical Christians” believe death penalty is Biblical, however Catholic strongly believe death penalty is a sin. Catholic can’t support either party.
Equating the murder of an innocent baby to the death of a cnvicted felon is just plain silly or else just truely uninformed .
Thanks
RC
Very, very true!!!
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:05:32 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7621
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quote:
If you bring abortion , then death penalty should also dictate the decision. I know some of you “evangelical Christians” believe death penalty is Biblical, however Catholic strongly believe death penalty is a sin. Catholic can’t support either party.
Actually, the Catholic Church has, and does support the death penalty in certain instances.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:07:51 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I am not supporting it but since, by your own admission, the Republicans lack the resolve to fight for one of their planks in their party platform, it makes the issue moot as a source of who to choose to put in office. This issue is not going to change until SCOTUS reverses itself and they need to rule on a suit brought forth before them to do that.
I am not going to put another politician in office just because he "says he's pro-life" but lacks the resolve to do anything about that and then destroys the economy and gets us involved in costly foreign wars that have no bearing on defeating Osama
The SCOTUS will not reverse itself until it has judges willing to do so; and voting for Barack Obama is tantamount to putting pro-abortion judges on the courts, and I would say any Christian who does so bears responsibility for that.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:37:35 AM
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relady
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quote:
Equating the murder of an innocent baby to the death of a cnvicted felon is just plain silly or else just truely uninformed . To someone TRULY pro-life (as opposed to just anti abortion) ALL life is worth protecting, regardless.
quote:
Actually, the Catholic Church has, and does support the death penalty in certain instances. If so, it is very very limited. NONE of my Catholic friends are pro-death penalty. But I do have a few that are prochoice.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:41:30 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Thank you! Someone finally gets it. Keep voting for the same thing, keep getting more of the same. Most of these guys can't govern but as long as they SAY they are prochoice they keep getting elected. It's insanity.
I personally have no qualm with someone for not voting for Candidate X because he/she is a poor candidate other than his/her pro-life stance; what is not morally permissible for a Christian (Catholic or otherwise) is to vote for candidate Y who makes it clear he/she will support the killing of the unborn if elected.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:44:41 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
If so, it is very very limited. NONE of my Catholic friends are pro-death penalty. But I do have a few that are prochoice.
Well the stance of the Church is not equivalent to the beliefs of one's friends who happen to call themselves Catholic, though I will say in recent years the Catholic Church leadership has become much more opposed to the death penalty except in certain narrow circumstances; it has never supported a pro-choice position, and in fact considers such people in error and sin.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 9:49:44 AM
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relady
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quote:
it has never supported a pro-choice position, and in fact considers such people in error and sin. True, especially publicly. However, most of my friends went through their catechism in the 50s and 60s and they were taught, and are still told by their church (not publicly), to search their hearts and minds and to pray about it, and if they feel they can vote for someone who might be prochoice but otherwise be a good candidate then they can feel free to do so.
Again, you have a disconnect between what is being taught privately and what is being spouted publicly by the Catholic Church. Perhaps we are just in an area where the "church" tends to be a little more liberal, but being in the midwest that would surprise me. I do know most of my friends cannot stand the current Bishop.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:00:18 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
True, especially publicly. However, most of my friends went through their catechism in the 50s and 60s and they were taught, and are still told by their church (not publicly), to search their hearts and minds and to pray about it, and if they feel they can vote for someone who might be prochoice but otherwise be a good candidate then they can feel free to do so.
Again, you have a disconnect between what is being taught privately and what is being spouted publicly by the Catholic Church. Perhaps we are just in an area where the "church" tends to be a little more liberal, but being in the midwest that would surprise me. I do know most of my friends cannot stand the current Bishop.
Well, I'm not Catholic, though oddly I often find I know more about what their church teaches than many Catholics do, but the church as of late has denied openly pro-choice Catholic candidates communion. I don't know how a Catholic in good standing could 'vote their conscience', and vote for someone whom the church has denied an essential sacrament.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:06:09 AM
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relady
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quote:
I don't know how a Catholic in good standing could 'vote their conscience', and vote for someone whom the church has denied an essential sacrament. I know a lot of American Catholics who just disagree with what the church is doing. I am married to a recovering one and his family is strongly Catholic and they don't use the prochoice/prolife issue as a litmus test for whom to vote or not vote for. I think the majority of Catholics don't, that's why there are so many Democratic Catholics in America. Not sure about that, just speaking from what I've seen and been exposed to personally. I'm not Catholic either.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:17:23 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I know a lot of American Catholics who just disagree with what the church is doing. I am married to a recovering one and his family is strongly Catholic and they don't use the prochoice/prolife issue as a litmus test for whom to vote or not vote for. I think the majority of Catholics don't, that's why there are so many Democratic Catholics in America. Not sure about that, just speaking from what I've seen and been exposed to personally. I'm not Catholic either.
Well I agree many Americans disagree with the Catholic Church, but I would say that is because they really don't understand how the Catholic Church works - disagreement with fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church, even by a majority of Cathoilics, don't constitute the beliefs of the Catholic Church, just as fundamental disagreement of American Protestants with certain aspects of Scripture don't constitute the teachings of Christ. These people would be seen as out of step with their respective institutions, not representative of them.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches in part that:
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined....
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."
And barring their election to the heiarchy of the Church, the opinions of the average American Catholic would not overide this.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:25:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5919
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The Republican's lack of resolve on the issue makes it ok to support it?
I am not supporting it but since, by your own admission, the Republicans lack the resolve to fight for one of their planks in their party platform, it makes the issue moot as a source of who to choose to put in office. This issue is not going to change until SCOTUS reverses itself and they need to rule on a suit brought forth before them to do that.
I am not going to put another politician in office just because he "says he's pro-life" but lacks the resolve to do anything about that and then destroys the economy and gets us involved in costly foreign wars that have no bearing on defeating Osama!
A vote for those who champion the cause is supporting it, by your own admission...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:27:30 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5919
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I am not supporting it but since, by your own admission, the Republicans lack the resolve to fight for one of their planks in their party platform, it makes the issue moot as a source of who to choose to put in office. This issue is not going to change until SCOTUS reverses itself and they need to rule on a suit brought forth before them to do that.
I am not going to put another politician in office just because he "says he's pro-life" but lacks the resolve to do anything about that and then destroys the economy and gets us involved in costly foreign wars that have no bearing on defeating Osama
The SCOTUS will not reverse itself until it has judges willing to do so; and voting for Barack Obama is tantamount to putting pro-abortion judges on the courts, and I would say any Christian who does so bears responsibility for that.
Amen!
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:39:24 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5919
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
To someone TRULY pro-life (as opposed to just anti abortion) ALL life is worth protecting, regardless.
Only to those folks who would stand back and allow one to take life because they feel the the need to "protect" the life of the one taking it... Which of course isn't a pro-life stance... And anyone who can't discern the difference between a convicted person and one who isn't doesn't understand justice, nor the difference between the innocent one on the cross and the two guilty parties receiving their due reward for their deeds as written in Luke 23... Christ was murdered, the two thieves justly received their due reward... Po-life to the point of ignoring God's justice isn't really pro-life...
quote:
If so, it is very very limited. NONE of my Catholic friends are pro-death penalty. But I do have a few that are prochoice.
Actually I bet they are since they are pro-choice and believe that the child of a rape should be put to death due to the actions of the father.... They condemned the child at the same time give the father a free pass in comparison...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:47:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5919
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
True, especially publicly. However, most of my friends went through their catechism in the 50s and 60s and they were taught, and are still told by their church (not publicly), to search their hearts and minds and to pray about it, and if they feel they can vote for someone who might be prochoice but otherwise be a good candidate then they can feel free to do so.
Given the vagueness of the above I am sure they can gather that from whatever the priest and or church told them... Having gone to Catholic schools most of my life I am not aware of the catechism changing from parish to parish all that much since I was in more than a few...
quote:
Again, you have a disconnect between what is being taught privately and what is being spouted publicly by the Catholic Church. Perhaps we are just in an area where the "church" tends to be a little more liberal, but being in the midwest that would surprise me. I do know most of my friends cannot stand the current Bishop.
The disconnect is more about the actions of those who claim to be Catholic regardless that their actions are in clear conflict with church doctrine and teaching...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Catholic Case Against Barack - 10/2/2008 10:52:21 AM
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tinydancer2
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What I do know because I grew up in a country where Roman Catholic Church was official church and still my original country today are considered the larger RC nation in the world (although I do desagree with that because it seems RC Church count their membership based on babies baptism and many people in Brasil do not practice catholicism but many times baptizing babies are tradition etc) the moral standing starts even before women get pregnant as RC Church in Brasil may not embrace contraceptives. Than people is not suppose to engage in sexual activities anyways and than would not abort any babies.
In more "free" societies and individual freedoms on the top of everything, people are living their freedoms, including engaging in sexual activities using contraceptives and when those fail the request abortions. What I do not understand what happens here in USA is how people gave their freedoms to the State to sign the executing and provide the execution services. The Gov ends up executing the criminal on death roll and the babies also. But the criminals went throu a process where they were finded guilty, what guilty does a baby commited, what crime did a baby commited to have to die? This issue is very much serious and moral by making abortion legal there is no scape at least in my head that we end up all guilty of what the State is doing because its a law! Inocent blood is all over this land we walk in it, we breath in it and etc. I do see how can we not be all guilty coletively by what the Gov is doing under our names.
You know people, the concept of shame, moral decay, descency are all gone everywhere..is everything wrap up in the lack of respect for life by killing, not only aborting babies but abusing and raping them when they are born, by the brake down of families and high divorce rates, by neglect and abandon them all together...I see it all as a coorporate braking and mockering of the Laws of the Lord if we thing we all have nothing to do with the matter...and I'm sorry but what we see for a couple of days is that we may cry out and let our voices be heard in anger when the economics will hurt our plans and lives, but there is not any cry out of this sort for our voices to be heard and where we stand reggarding the killing of the babies in this land for decades.
I'm sorry but individualistic brokeness is good but is not enough, as there is many times in the Bible, Lord God call for humble ourselves and go coorporate ways of brokeness, and than with repentance, The Lord will heal the land, and countries.
Sorry for my vent and my gramatical errors..thanks.
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