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Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 6:15:19 PM
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4given_1
Posts: 11
Joined: 3/31/2008
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Hello. I am new here but thought you all may be able to give some advice on a bad situation. Our church voted a pastor in a couple of years ago after being without one for sometime. The first thing this man done was to go from home to home talking about others in the church.Then when he figured out who would be "with him" and who would not he got one of his chums to make a motion to do away with all the past rules of the church. Then at the same business meeting, he got another man to make a motion to remove all deacons, elders.....EVERYONE from ALL positions. To say the least alot of people got hurt and left. When we all finally decided to go back, he got the same man to stand up and do away with all members from the past. Now that leaves his 8 - 10 people that he controls like robots. Now my question is Can this be done???? We have always went by Roberts Rules and NONE of this had enough votes to pass . What are your suggestions?? We are ready to see him move on!!
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RE: Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 6:33:32 PM
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eldermary
Posts: 22
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First, so you have a denomination to turn to for help?
The old bylaws should state how they are to be amended...and if he violated that, you have grounds to regroup and fire him. best wishes to you.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 7:03:26 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1101
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If his people are making motions, and the motions are not passing, then those motions failed and are not in effect. The leaders/members still stand -- as they were before anyone attempted to pass a motion to get rid of them. A meeting held with these people (as long as all others were invited and quorum rules were met, according to your bylaws) would have the authority to fire the pastor, stop paying him and request that he no longer enter the building,
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RE: Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 7:21:42 PM
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4given_1
Posts: 11
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Thanks to all who have posted. We are hoping this is settled soon. Please remember us in your prayers .
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RE: Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 7:33:29 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4826
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4given_1
Thanks to all who have posted. We are hoping this is settled soon. Please remember us in your prayers .
Can you please tell us what denomination (if any) your church belongs to?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Advice ............Please - 3/31/2008 11:29:10 PM
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4given_1
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Sorry about that. We are a Baptist church.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 10:24:22 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4623
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4given_1
Hello. I am new here but thought you all may be able to give some advice on a bad situation. Our church voted a pastor in a couple of years ago after being without one for sometime. The first thing this man done was to go from home to home talking about others in the church.Then when he figured out who would be "with him" and who would not he got one of his chums to make a motion to do away with all the past rules of the church. Then at the same business meeting, he got another man to make a motion to remove all deacons, elders.....EVERYONE from ALL positions. To say the least alot of people got hurt and left. When we all finally decided to go back, he got the same man to stand up and do away with all members from the past. Now that leaves his 8 - 10 people that he controls like robots. Now my question is Can this be done???? We have always went by Roberts Rules and NONE of this had enough votes to pass . What are your suggestions?? We are ready to see him move on!!
Of course I am not familiar with the rules by which the Church operates, but evidently everything that has taken place with rule changes etc. was voted on by the congregation, no matter who or why the motion was made.
Please explain how that there were not enough votes and something passed anyway?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 11:59:25 AM
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4given_1
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By the rules that our church has always followed since the church adopted them back many years ago. You must have a 2/3 vote of those present to pass. There was not 2/3 of those present who voted with them to do away with these things.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 12:07:03 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3450
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
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I don't understand how it could happen without the votes, either.
Do you have a state convention or other leadership that you can turn to, to help sort this out?
Praying
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 12:35:51 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4623
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4given_1
By the rules that our church has always followed since the church adopted them back many years ago. You must have a 2/3 vote of those present to pass. There was not 2/3 of those present who voted with them to do away with these things.
And just how do you know this?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 2:01:57 PM
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4given_1
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If you are asking how I know that the church adopted these rules years ago, then it is because it is in writing in the church minutes that this is what is followed by the church and if you are asking me how I know how the vote was 2/3 or not was because the votes are not by ballot they are by show of hands and are recorded in the minutes at the time of the vote. So its not difficult to know how many voted how.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 2:04:16 PM
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4given_1
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Yes, we do have a convention that is aware of these things. Thanks.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 4:59:27 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
If you are asking how I know that the church adopted these rules years ago, then it is because it is in writing in the church minutes that this is what is followed by the church and if you are asking me how I know how the vote was 2/3 or not was because the votes are not by ballot they are by show of hands and are recorded in the minutes at the time of the vote. So its not difficult to know how many voted how.
What we (I think) are asking is this... If the minutes clearly record that the motion failed, why did anybody get kicked out?
If I moved that we paint my Church purple, and not enough people voted 'yes'... the Church would stay the same colour it is now. That's why anybody who was attacked by these failed motions has not actually lost their status.
A failed motion is only talk. One person says, "Let's do this." the rest of the people say, "No, let's not." and the issue is done.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 4:59:49 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3450
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
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If you haven't already, could you sit down and talk with them face to face? Would they be willing to go to or oversee a meeting at your church about this?
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 5:18:46 PM
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4given_1
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I see what you are asking. You must understand that this man, ever since he has come has decided that any of the church rules should not apply to anything he does. That he is in control and that there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Even telling some of the members that they cannot vote on these issues. For example: There was 10 people at the last business meeting, when it was brought to a motion to dismiss all previous members five of us were not allowed to vote I assume that was because we were voting agaist it . I do not think he had the right to tell us that we were not allowed to vote. Am I wrong?And yes our assistant pastor, who was also removed, has talked with the association and they are working with us. As far as them coming o sit in on any meetings, well I don't know if they will decide to or not.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 8:50:23 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1367
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4given_1
Hello. I am new here but thought you all may be able to give some advice on a bad situation. Our church voted a pastor in a couple of years ago after being without one for sometime. The first thing this man done was to go from home to home talking about others in the church.Then when he figured out who would be "with him" and who would not he got one of his chums to make a motion to do away with all the past rules of the church. Then at the same business meeting, he got another man to make a motion to remove all deacons, elders.....EVERYONE from ALL positions. To say the least alot of people got hurt and left. When we all finally decided to go back, he got the same man to stand up and do away with all members from the past. Now that leaves his 8 - 10 people that he controls like robots. Now my question is Can this be done???? We have always went by Roberts Rules and NONE of this had enough votes to pass . What are your suggestions?? We are ready to see him move on!!
His first name isn't 'Ray' is it? 
Years ago I was involved in a church where a very similar situation took place. The pastor ended up bilking the church in a horrendous scandal.
One of the things these charletons and con men count on is that they know Christians are loath to sue in court. However, a church, to keep it's tax exempt status, must follow certain legal steps and be run as a not-for-profit in terms of by-laws. In addition, changes to major rules must be reflected in the minutes of each business meeting. For instance, I cannot believe that it could possibly be legal to drop members as appears to have been done. And, I definitely do not believe that he is functioning in a legal fashion to deny members voting rights. Like it or not, this is one of those instances that you have to consult a lawyer even if you do not intend to sue or go to arbitration. This is nothing short of a coup.
Frankly, and this is just me, if that happened in my church... after seeing the devastation of a former church that was literally taken over by a like-minded man, I would:
1) Hire a lawyer and have him write to the pastor and current deacons, informing them that they did not act in legal conformity with the bylaws of the church. And, be ready to get tougher if needed.
2) Hire a private investigator to check his past history in churches. My guess that his resume was cooked and that he has, in actuality, left a trail of destruction in his actual past.
Listen, I KNOW for a FACT that there are con men out there posing as pastors and some of them are phenominal preachers that know all the right 'spiritual' words to preach.
I was able to find an account of what can happen to a church under one of these guys. It ain't pretty. They went from over 3000 to less than 800.
And... if you want some additonal fun put in "Shiloh Ministries"+"Hagerstown" (With Quotes) into Google and step through some of the more interesting links. The former pastor at Montrose founded Shiloh Ministries shortly after leaving.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 4/1/2008 9:22:38 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 9:17:10 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3450
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
Status: offline
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I have to agree. Taking a vote and telling members they're out or can't vote, can't be a legal vote.
I agree with TMeeks, it sounds more like a coup. Like he wants to turn your church into his own little cult.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 10:11:23 PM
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bry180
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Joined: 4/1/2008
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Find a new church unless God has put on your heart to stay. I believe in being faithful but there are times when you need to make the change. A church that is ALIVE is worth the DRIVE.... Find somewhere with life and make the drive...
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/1/2008 10:30:30 PM
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BibleL7
Posts: 412
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: online
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I would advise you to get a copy of the By-Laws and check the rules of membership, the rules for Pastors office, and rules for Deacons. In some By-Laws the new Pastor has the right to replace Deacons. Usually the Pastor has right to be a leader in any and all committees. However if the membership does not approve actions the Pastor can be removed by a 2/3 vote of members. The Pastor can not go against the By-Laws as far as who is or is not a member. Unless your By-Laws are really off from the usual Baptist ones there are only certain conditions that a member can be voted out, and it must be done according to rules and vote member by member. The usual reasons being either death, joining another church or non association for a period of time such as a year. You might after checking the By-Laws talk to members and have a meeting to vote out this Pastor. Check the By-Laws to see if there is a problem with the procedures and if necessary a vote of 2/3s can make changes to them.
Oh and talking to a lawyer is advisable with a copy of By-Laws and find out what the laws of your state have to say about your corporation, and who actually has control of the church. Many Baptist Churches are owned independently whether they belong to an association or not so the association may not be able to help much in this other than support wise. If however the association has participation in running the church then they can do more.
This is a bad situation no doubt but it will depend on the membership and following the By-Laws to come up with the answer. Oh and if you have a problem with finding a copy of the By-Laws just check with the State government for they should be on file. I dont know about your State but Nevada requires a copy to be sent in every few years to continue sales tax exemption. And most States to form a Church organization they must file a copy of Articles of Faith, Constitution and By-Laws among the other paper work in order to be a church. And if your church filed a 501c3 then the federal government should also have it on file.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/2/2008 7:49:33 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3450
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
Status: offline
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I was thinking about this last night. The easy thing to do would be to find another church. And that may be what you will need to do.
The other thing to do is to fight. In that case TMeeks and BibleL7 have given you a place to start. Sometimes we need to stand.
When we get right down to it, any church isn't really "our" church, it's the Lord's. I suggest first, pray, pray, pray, seeking what God's will is in this.
If it's "flight" find another church that teaches God's word, and where you can grow and serve Him. If it's "fight" rally the troops (other outed members), and form a battle plan. Let the Lord lead you.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/2/2008 9:34:25 AM
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4given_1
Posts: 11
Joined: 3/31/2008
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Thanks to all who have responded. I find all this advice quite helpful. We have tried other churches and although they were fine churches the Lord keeps bringing us back. I believe that we will overcome this with the Lords help. It has been a nightmare which has lasted way too long. And you know, never does he(the pastor) say that you should do things for the Lord but it is always that it is to be done for him(the pastor). Even though the people that are following him so, act as if he is their GOD, he is not mine and I refuse to let him control me and tell me what to do. EX: He even tells them when to get out of their cars when they come to church. Strange HUH?? And yes the CULT thing has been brought up. A friend of mine who also attends the church , after the last business meeting, asked his right hand man if they were in fact Baptist, then went on to say that it was more like a cult. There are so many unbelievable things that have went on. I have been in church all of my life and I have seen some pretty odd things go on, but never like this...NEVER. Yes, he was asked to leave his last church, they pretty much had to bar him since he kept coming back, maybe hoping that they were just joking. But this man is not God led and it doesn't take long to see it. I just cannot understand how an association will keep putting a person on their list of available pastors that has messed up churches in their association like this.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/2/2008 10:27:47 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1101
Joined: 4/29/2005
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If you know the Church he was last asked to leave, a good idea would be to contact a congregational leader there who went through the experience. That person would have a lot to offer you as far as insight and advice.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/3/2008 3:37:25 PM
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4given_1
Posts: 11
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline
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TMeeks, read up on your suggestions. Boy, does alot of this sound so very familiar to me! Makes me wonder, do these people have the same M.O. or what!! The financial part, the getting rid of those who do not agree with them or question them! Interesting reading though, I have wondered how are they (the church) doing now.
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RE: Advice ............Please - 4/3/2008 10:50:41 PM
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Closie
Posts: 418
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Because each Baptist church is sovereign and under its own control, there is nothing the association can do besides provide advice. There is no legal authority.
OP says that he is led to stay. Certainly continue to seek the Holy Spirit's direction. Continue to communicate with the others who are disenfranchised. Eight or ten people can't control a church family without something else being askew.
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