Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
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Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists - 7/3/2008 3:13:35 AM
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iknownothing
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2005
Status: online
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121486821701117583.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
This article made me so angry I almost can't see straight. I makes me wonder, why do we - the Western World - even bother to fight terrorism in the first place? If judges are going to make decisions like this, then maybe we should just accept sharia law and dhimmitude, an be done with it. It would save a heck of a lot of money. During the past few years, libertarians have been telling us that we cannot treat the fight against terrorism as a war - we have to treat it as a law enforcement problem. Well, that is exactly what the Brits have tried to, and look where it got them. I can imagine that all over the world, the Islamo-fascists are celebrating and laughing their butts off, seeing how easy it was for them to game our system. I just have one question: after reading this article, can anyone see the wisdom of of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld when they established GITMO? After all, what happened in England - terrorists being set free by judges - is exactly what is going to happen the minute the terrorists get access to our civilian courts.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 4:15:42 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 188
Joined: 6/5/2008
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I think Britain is one of the major places for violent jihad recruiting. Maybe how they are choosing to deal with it has something to do with that -but - now that I read your post - I think it is a law enforcement issue because people who terrorize other people in the name of God are non-State actors. Some countries support them, but they are still not a government employee, so to speak. The problem isn't with our system or using good police work. If you can't prove in a court of law that these civilians are committing crimes then you better let them go. It is a war in a spiritual sense. We have spiritual weapons for that (Eph. ch. 6, 2 Cor. ch. 10) Ronald Reagan dealt with terror by way of police action and they were very successful in their results. Sun Tzu says that if you know yourself and your enemy you need not fear the outcome of any battle/conflict. The problem is that the West doesn't know either itself or the enemy and so we lose at times in our battles. One problem is because the West is so secular now that a major way to fight the violent jihadists by dealing with the lack of assurance of salvation that they have - well - we can't do that. I mean they do what they do hoping to go to Paradise, but they have no assurance they are going to get there despite what they say. If we were clinging to our texts - the Bible being one of them - we could go after them on this very big weak point. But we can't go after them because we are so secular.
God bless abundantly,
Galadriel2
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 4:16:51 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 280
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
OR… perhaps it shows that we (Europe) actually take our freedoms seriously. You know, the right to a fair trial, the outlawing of torture and all those pesky things that are nice and fuzzy to talk about, but gets really dirty when the you’re in trouble.
From the article:
quote:
Neither Abu Qatada nor "U" has been prosecuted in Britain, because U.K. authorities possess no evidence to charge these men with plotting terrorist acts.
They had NO evidence. Locking people up forever without a trial or any evidence against them are the ways of tyrannies, old-time communist blocks and, recently, a disturbing trend with some of our allies.
Don’t ask youself why are they released, but why are there no evidence? Who made a huge blunder here?
Or do you suggest we scrap our rights to get the bad guys?
Furthermore most European nations have rules against deporting people to cruel and unusual punishments.
It is a drag, I agree, but the same rules that prevent say Saudi Arabia to get a rape victim extracted to public whippings also prevent us handing over prisoners to the US, if they risk the death penalty.
I hope you have similar rules.
Someone didn’t do their homework. We cannot convict people without evidence.
I say mandatory wiretaps and the whole work, until one of them either blinks or turn out to not be involved.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 8:33:57 AM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1372
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: somewhere over the rainbow
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
OR… perhaps it shows that we (Europe) actually take our freedoms seriously. You know, the right to a fair trial, the outlawing of torture and all those pesky things that are nice and fuzzy to talk about, but gets really dirty when the you’re in trouble.
ROFL.
Oh, so we here in the U.S. don't?
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 8:35:23 AM
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everjoyful
Posts: 125
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
OR… perhaps it shows that we (Europe) actually take our freedoms seriously. You know, the right to a fair trial, the outlawing of torture and all those pesky things that are nice and fuzzy to talk about, but gets really dirty when the you’re in trouble.
From the article:
quote:
Neither Abu Qatada nor "U" has been prosecuted in Britain, because U.K. authorities possess no evidence to charge these men with plotting terrorist acts.
They had NO evidence. Locking people up forever without a trial or any evidence against them are the ways of tyrannies, old-time communist blocks and, recently, a disturbing trend with some of our allies.
Don’t ask youself why are they released, but why are there no evidence? Who made a huge blunder here?
Or do you suggest we scrap our rights to get the bad guys?
Furthermore most European nations have rules against deporting people to cruel and unusual punishments.
It is a drag, I agree, but the same rules that prevent say Saudi Arabia to get a rape victim extracted to public whippings also prevent us handing over prisoners to the US, if they risk the death penalty.
I hope you have similar rules.
Someone didn’t do their homework. We cannot convict people without evidence.
I say mandatory wiretaps and the whole work, until one of them either blinks or turn out to not be involved.
WormHeart
Agreed.
I believe that holding people for unlimited time with no evidence or charges is just wrong. If you begin to allow basic human rights to be taken from some where does it end?
(from a Brit)
_____________________________
john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 8:57:42 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
This article made me so angry I almost can't see straight. I makes me wonder, why do we - the Western World - even bother to fight terrorism in the first place? If judges are going to make decisions like this, then maybe we should just accept sharia law and dhimmitude, an be done with it. It would save a heck of a lot of money. During the past few years, libertarians have been telling us that we cannot treat the fight against terrorism as a war - we have to treat it as a law enforcement problem. Well, that is exactly what the Brits have tried to, and look where it got them. I can imagine that all over the world, the Islamo-fascists are celebrating and laughing their butts off, seeing how easy it was for them to game our system. I just have one question: after reading this article, can anyone see the wisdom of of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld when they established GITMO? After all, what happened in England - terrorists being set free by judges - is exactly what is going to happen the minute the terrorists get access to our civilian courts.
If you can't actually prove in court that they're terrorists, then how do you know that they're terrorists?
What is happening in Britain should not be taken as an ideal example of what liberals want from courts, I should think, in the war on terror. It certainly isn't what I want from courts, though I'm not liberal on this issue. However, it is how courts should respond when the state detains someone but is unwilling or unable to actually charge them, present convincing evidence, and get them convicted. These are basic legal rights in the Anglo-Saxon legal system. I'm frankly surprised that the rule of law as a limit on the power of the state is now a liberal or libertarian rather than conservative issue.
I'm also rather surprised at the WSJ's apparent naivete on the issue of Jordan and torture. Britain's interpretation of the Convention against Torture does seem pretty broad here, but nevertheless, allegations of torture in the Jordanian legal system are pretty widespread. It's not like they were pulled out of thin air on this issue.
And the other case mentioned, Salina Malik, seems basically to have been convicted for possession of the Islamist equivalent of the Anarchist Cookbook. Again, a worrying sign perhaps, but I would be much more worried if the legal system was willing to convict people for possession of subversive literature. This to me would be a much more disturbing trend in the growth of the power of the state.
A couple of final points I meant to put in - according to the WSJ, the British government could charge them with certain terrorist offences and decided not to. If that's the case, I think they could absolutely have been charged.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 9:05:17 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everjoyful
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
OR… perhaps it shows that we (Europe) actually take our freedoms seriously. You know, the right to a fair trial, the outlawing of torture and all those pesky things that are nice and fuzzy to talk about, but gets really dirty when the you’re in trouble.
From the article:
quote:
Neither Abu Qatada nor "U" has been prosecuted in Britain, because U.K. authorities possess no evidence to charge these men with plotting terrorist acts.
They had NO evidence. Locking people up forever without a trial or any evidence against them are the ways of tyrannies, old-time communist blocks and, recently, a disturbing trend with some of our allies.
Don’t ask youself why are they released, but why are there no evidence? Who made a huge blunder here?
Or do you suggest we scrap our rights to get the bad guys?
Furthermore most European nations have rules against deporting people to cruel and unusual punishments.
It is a drag, I agree, but the same rules that prevent say Saudi Arabia to get a rape victim extracted to public whippings also prevent us handing over prisoners to the US, if they risk the death penalty.
I hope you have similar rules.
Someone didn’t do their homework. We cannot convict people without evidence.
I say mandatory wiretaps and the whole work, until one of them either blinks or turn out to not be involved.
WormHeart
Agreed.
I believe that holding people for unlimited time with no evidence or charges is just wrong. If you begin to allow basic human rights to be taken from some where does it end?
(from a Brit)
Gitmo comes to mind.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 9:26:15 PM
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iknownothing
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2005
Status: online
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fiat_lux wrote: "If you can't actually prove in court that they're terrorists, then how do you know that they're terrorists?"
Look, I am not interested in arguing legalities or semantics with you. I frankly don't care whether or not they have "been convicted in court." The article said that these men belong to al Qaeda, so to me, they are terrorists.
But if if makes you feel better, maybe we can refer to them as "walking pieces of Islamo-Fascist garbage". Is that better?
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 9:42:13 PM
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iknownothing
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2005
Status: online
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Correction: Samina Malik is not a man, she is a woman, which to me is worse. Please go to the following link to read some of poetry written by this follower of "the Religion of Peace":
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17954
This is my question: why was this writing not enough to have this women be put in prison for a hate crime? After all, we all know that if a Christian wrote such inflammatory poetry while living in the EU, and if it was directed at Muslims, he or she would be put on trial for a hate crime and be put in prison before the day was out - just like Mark Steyn in Canada
So I want you European and British liberals to answer this question: why the double standard?
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 10:09:58 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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When are we, in the West, goint to to start listening and reading what Islamic extremists have said and written over the years?
THEY ARE AT WAR WITH US.
They are a world wide network of militaristic style terrorist organizations that honor no flag or leader other than the one immediately over them. They wear no uniform and hold all kinds of legitimate jobs.
THey are not criminals.
They do not commit criminal acts. They commit acts of war.
Evidence of their connections and acts can not be easily obtained because that evidence is either in war zones or is protected by contries and governments that are either being propped up by terrorists, or house and support terrorists.
As another Wall Street Journal Opinion piece stated; if we in the West continue to demand that terrorists be treated as criminals you are going to see a lot more of these "criminals" killed in action.
As Osama Bin Laden has stated when this Islamic extremist war against the West took on the scope it has today: the difference between us and them is that we value death. They value life.
Islamic extrmeists have identified our weakness and aim to turn our strengths-our liberties and sense of justice- against ourselves because they see our liberties and our way of life in opposition to their God, and the way their God intends for life on Earth to exist.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/3/2008 11:47:36 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
fiat_lux wrote: "If you can't actually prove in court that they're terrorists, then how do you know that they're terrorists?"
Look, I am not interested in arguing legalities or semantics with you. I frankly don't care whether or not they have "been convicted in court." The article said that these men belong to al Qaeda, so to me, they are terrorists.
Well, someone told you they belonged to al Qaeda. That someone must have some evidence to back up that belief. If they want them locked up, then that evidence ought to be presented in a courtroom in order to get a conviction. According to the article linked to, there was in fact evidence to do so, but the British preferred to go for the deportation route. I think that was a mistake. I think they should have been convicted there. If they were already restrained in jail, then the British could go about worrying about whether Jordan wants them afterwards to try them for some other crime. This would seem to prevent the problem of spending enormous amounts on police surveillance while they walk around on the streets.
I find the notion that civil rights are mere "semantics" to be rather worrying. I find the fact that you consider jailing someone without a conviction to be "semantics" to be equally worrying. But then, I'm a smaller-government, pro-civil rights sort of person.
quote:
But if if makes you feel better, maybe we can refer to them as "walking pieces of Islamo-Fascist garbage". Is that better?
I would first and foremost refer to them as human beings. If it makes you feel better to come up with derogatory slurs, that of course is your privilege.
quote:
Correction: Samina Malik is not a man, she is a woman, which to me is worse. Please go to the following link to read some of poetry written by this follower of "the Religion of Peace":
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17954
Why is it worse that she is a woman? Women can be convicted, too. I don't see how this changes anything. That literature is, I agree, disgusting. However, it is poetry. It's fairly tough to charge someone for writing poetry.
Some of the terrorist literature advocating and prescribing killing, however, would be illegal, as the appeals court itself actually stated in its decision:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2145506/'Lyrical-Terrorist'-Samina-Malik-cleared-on-appeal.html
On this basis it suggested that the prosecutors re-try the case focusing on that material rather than on the poetry, but at this point the prosecutors haven't decided to go forward yet. Personally I would not complain if they do. At the end of the day, they pointed out, the only thing that Malik is guilty of is possession of terrorism-inciting materials, not actually being a member of a terrorist organization or of plotting terrorist acts. And for that reason, if they did re-try her, the offence would probably result in a sentence of time already served, covering the time she's already been jailed.
quote:
This is my question: why was this writing not enough to have this women be put in prison for a hate crime? After all, we all know that if a Christian wrote such inflammatory poetry while living in the EU, and if it was directed at Muslims, he or she would be put on trial for a hate crime and be put in prison before the day was out - just like Mark Steyn in Canada
I think you may have some exaggerated ideas about foreign legal systems. For one thing, no one is putting Steyn in prison.
That said, if this is a hate crime, then it should certainly be prosecuted as such. Apparently we agree on that point.
quote:
I can see the wisdom of Gitmo, I do not wish some fool with a bomb to kill my family or me, just because he thinks he is getting to have relations with 72 virgins. That ia perverted to say the least anyway. Can they not find seventy two in their country. Why blow yourself up, and when they are not virgins anymore then what do you do in muslim heaven? Yes, keep them locked up.
Not to justify the terrorists, but most of them aren't motivated by this. That's a bonus for a few, I guess, but we're dealing with a lot more serious movement here than just some fools who think they're going to get virgins as payment. And you're right, they can surely be "locked up." Once we prove they're terrorists and convict them of that, because, yes, anyone plotting to kill your family with a bomb is definitely committing a very serious crime.
However, our system of justice is based on evidence, not on accusation alone. Until that evidence is presented so that there can be a conviction, I think it is extremely dangerous as a precedent for us to simply accept that these individuals are dangerous terrorists. Try them, convict them, lock them away. That's how our system works. If you're going to let the government take away basic judicial rights of the citizenry, then we are not winning this war.
quote:
They are a world wide network of militaristic style terrorist organizations that honor no flag or leader other than the one immediately over them. They wear no uniform and hold all kinds of legitimate jobs.
THey are not criminals.
They do not commit criminal acts. They commit acts of war.
Excellent. Then let's treat them as prisoners of war. We have laws for those, too.
quote:
Evidence of their connections and acts can not be easily obtained because that evidence is either in war zones or is protected by contries and governments that are either being propped up by terrorists, or house and support terrorists.
The people in question lived in Britain for many years. And if the government can't summon evidence to support the charge that they're a terrorist, then it can't convince me that the individual in question is a terrorist.
I think the problem here is simply the level of trust we're willing to place in big governments. I simply don't trust big governments very much. The legal system, and the rights people possess within that system, is a check on their power that makes sure that power won't be abused. Historically, out-of-control governments have killed a lot more people than out-of-control terrorists.
quote:
As another Wall Street Journal Opinion piece stated; if we in the West continue to demand that terrorists be treated as criminals you are going to see a lot more of these "criminals" killed in action.
I'm not sure what the WSJ is driving at here from what you've said, but if it's suggesting that the terrorists be killed "in action" to avoid the technicalities of the legal system, that in my opinion that would be summary execution, ergo murder.
quote:
Islamic extrmeists have identified our weakness and aim to turn our strengths-our liberties and sense of justice- against ourselves because they see our liberties and our way of life in opposition to their God, and the way their God intends for life on Earth to exist.
The solution to a war on my way of life, surely, is not to abandon that way of life, but to continue to practice it in the face of any adversity.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 12:53:34 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
I think the problem here is simply the level of trust we're willing to place in big governments. I simply don't trust big governments very much. The legal system, and the rights people possess within that system, is a check on their power that makes sure that power won't be abused. Historically, out-of-control governments have killed a lot more people than out-of-control terrorists.
quote:
As another Wall Street Journal Opinion piece stated; if we in the West continue to demand that terrorists be treated as criminals you are going to see a lot more of these "criminals" killed in action.
I'm not sure what the WSJ is driving at here from what you've said, but if it's suggesting that the terrorists be killed "in action" to avoid the technicalities of the legal system, that in my opinion that would be summary execution, ergo murder.
quote:
Islamic extrmeists have identified our weakness and aim to turn our strengths-our liberties and sense of justice- against ourselves because they see our liberties and our way of life in opposition to their God, and the way their God intends for life on Earth to exist.
The solution to a war on my way of life, surely, is not to abandon that way of life, but to continue to practice it in the face of any adversity.
First of all I feel I must apologize, a little bit, for using the sited Wall Street Journal as the basis for my post. I am writing from America and I know that the cases sighted, and the judgements argued will more than likely be echoed here in the States, if they haven't already. They may very likely set the standard for the way a number of people here see the way we need to treat those that are at war with us.
Point #!. What does the issue of big government have to do with being at war? What does that have to do with trying captured prisoners of war as prisoners of war? The arguement/ question of big government has more to do, is more the property of people who see these people as nothing more than criminals and not terrorists bent on killing innocents for any number of reasons.
Point #2. The opinion piece I sighted did indeed warn that because of the problems raised by seeing terrorists as nothing but criminals will likely cause a greater amount of these people being killed in action because it would be the only way that their guilt or innocense would actually stand a chance of meeting the standards of proof that the government is being expected to provide in the timely manner that it is also expected to meet.
The point being that by viewing these people merely as criminals and should be tried as such will, in the long term, actually do more harm than good.
Point #3 No one is advocating the abandonment of our way of life, or even the way we hold people accountable for their actions. I am advocating that we do just that. I am advocating that we try criminals as criminals and prisoners of war as prisoners of war. There is a real diffference and standard at work in both instances.
I am advocating that people stop confusing the two and let each process work as they were designed to.
Now, I know that people will state that we should not try these people as POWs solely because we have not declared war against them. The fact, the acknowledgement that these peole (Islamic extremists/ terrorists) have declared war on us is all that is actually needed.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 4:07:59 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
Point #3 No one is advocating the abandonment of our way of life, or even the way we hold people accountable for their actions. I am advocating that we do just that. I am advocating that we try criminals as criminals and prisoners of war as prisoners of war. There is a real diffference and standard at work in both instances.
If you think they ought to be treated as prisoners of war, then you and I have no disagreement. I'd be happy to see that happen.
So far it doesn't seem to be happening, but if that's what's going to happen, that's fine.
quote:
Point #!. What does the issue of big government have to do with being at war? What does that have to do with trying captured prisoners of war as prisoners of war? The arguement/ question of big government has more to do, is more the property of people who see these people as nothing more than criminals and not terrorists bent on killing innocents for any number of reasons.
What concerns me is that many Western governments don't seem to have made up their mind whether to treat them as prisoners of war or as criminals, and is therefore opting for a strange grey middle area where virtually anything goes. Then, every so often (which is what usually happens with nonlegal grey areas), there's a court ruling that sets back those plans, and someone gets released who realistically might have been charged and convicted.
What concerns me are the implications of this position, because in my mind we're in danger of a situation in which the government proclaims the power to detain indefinitely, without charge, enemies of the state who don't qualify as criminals to be charged, or as prisoners of war to be detained until the end of hostilities. That, in my mind, would be an expansion of government power open to wide abuse in the future depending on who's at the top and making the decisions. And as I say, historically we have more to fear from governments than from terrorists.
However, if we were going to treat captured terrorists as prisoners of war, I think I'd be fine with that too.
In any case, however, the key problem remains in this case, which is that while I completely agree with you that there are terrorist groups out there who have declared war on us, in this case we're talking about individuals, arrested in Britain, not on a battlefield and not in uniform. In such a situation I believe we should expect our governments to be able to follow a due process to ensure that government power is not abused. The legal system is not perfect, but it does offer such a process, which is why I was defending it.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 7/4/2008 4:19:49 AM >
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 4:17:22 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 280
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
OR… perhaps it shows that we (Europe) actually take our freedoms seriously. You know, the right to a fair trial, the outlawing of torture and all those pesky things that are nice and fuzzy to talk about, but gets really dirty when the you’re in trouble.
ROFL.
Oh, so we here in the U.S. don't?
I dont know.
You used to take is seriously, but there is a amazing amount of people here, that are fine with skipping the fair trial and outlawing of torture bit.
Case in point:
quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
I frankly don't care whether or not they have "been convicted in court." The article said that these men belong to al Qaeda, so to me, they are terrorists.
But if if makes you feel better, maybe we can refer to them as "walking pieces of Islamo-Fascist garbage". Is that better?
So if I point out a militia in your area as “terrorist”, then they don’t need a trial? Neat.
Fiat_lux did a really good job at pointing out the problems with just locking people up, but I will say this:
Do you think terrorism started with 9/11?
Do you think it is a new kind of war?
Britan has seen bombings for DECADES by the IRA. London has lived with constant, real threat of bombings for longer than most of you have lived. The IRA terrorist were just as fanatic as these people.
People in Northen Ireland were killing their neighbours for a long time. Protestants against Catholics and reverse.
Were the IRA people to be treated as POWs or criminals?
Britan has dealt with terrorists in a long time – perhaps you could learn a bit from them, before you skip a lot of the very freedoms you claim to defend.
Wikilink:
The Troubles
Germany lived with RAF (Rote Armee Fraction) for quite a while too. Almost 30 years. Stuff like: Bombing of US barracks, Bombing of a police station in Augsburg and the Bavarian State Criminal Investigations Agency in Munich, Attack against US 42nd Field Artillery Brigade at Gießen.
Those weren't considered PoWs either. (They were also killed in very suspecios circumstances, by the way)
WormHeart
EDITED: A typo
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 6:17:14 AM
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everjoyful
Posts: 125
Joined: 1/4/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
Do you think terrorism started with 9/11?
Do you think it is a new kind of war?
Britan has seen bombings for DECADES by the IRA. London has lived with constant, real threat of bombings for longer than most of you have lived. The IRA terrorist were just as fanatic as these people.
People in Northen Ireland were killing their neighbours for a long time. Protestants against Catholics and reverse.
Were the IRA people to be treated as POWs or criminals?
Britan has dealt with terrorists in a long time – perhaps you could learn a bit from them, before you skip a lot of the very freedoms you claim to defend.
WormHeart
EDITED: A typo
It's true we have been under threat my entire life and before. As a child visiting London I already knew to report unattended luggage and to stay away from parked cars and rubbish bins.
In the uk we are not so scared of Al quida...They are just another group of lunatics that want to hurt us and to be honest they are not very good at it. Just google how many failed attemps and arrests there have been. (Now the IRA-they were scary!)
The threat of bombing is undeniably bad and we all fear for our families but we cannot let paranoia take over. And use fear as a reason to take away human rights.
I fear that one of my children may be hit by a car but am not going to take all drivers and lock them up just in case.
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john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 6:53:37 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 188
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
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See, the issues are rights, fair trial, and also the fact that the people who terrorize others in the name of God are civilians. It is the same issue with the Abu Graib people going after the contractors. You can't have a military tribunal (or whatever) to deal with the prisoners because no one involved in the cases are government officials or employees - neither the contractors or the prisoners. Everyone is a civilian.
The other perspective on the issue is that violent jihadists' crimes involve killing a lot of people. In other crime situations we allow room for the possibility of a criminal going free over the possibility of an innocent person being locked up - people have to be proven to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But when it comes to acts of terror you are risking a lot of people being killed when you let a terrorist go which, generally speaking, isn't the case in other crimes. That is why people are so reluctant to go by traditional American law (anyway) that you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. My own position is to trust the system and I think a guilty person can be proven beyond reasonable doubt to be so in a court of law - so put them on trial. It is also a good example of behavior to the watching and quick to condemn world.
God bless everyone,
Galadriel2
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 7/4/2008 7:12:56 AM >
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 7:09:53 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 188
Joined: 6/5/2008
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As far as Leon...'s comment that their writings show that they are at war with us and Usama bin Laden has declared war on the U.S. - this is very true and we should read their material if we want to be more informed about what is going on - but we should not go completely by their material. Usama and his friends may view themselves as soldiers. According to the Bible I am a soldier too. I have armor I should be wearing all the time, etc., - does that make me a soldier in the secular world, in the kingdoms of this world? What makes a person a soldier is if they are employed by a government. What makes a war a war in this world is if State actors are fighting. But we are fighting. I won't go along with Fareed Zakaria and make it seem like there has been barely any fighting at all - well - like so then we don't need John McCain's soldiering experience in our President - but anyway - let's just say - we are fighting - and they are organized - not lone workers here and there. They are organized, non-State actors.
God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel2
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 11:30:51 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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fiat_lux,
It seems that you and are are thinking pretty much allong the same lines.
Wormheart,
I believe your question about whether not terrorism is a new kind of war strikes to the heart of the issue. There are some, I believe (myself included) who see the present scope and use of terrorism as a new way for people groups to conduct war on one another. It is a form of warfare that has evolved and has proven very effective in a number of ways, in a number of areas throughout the world since World War II (the Israeli-Palestianian conflict)
My view of how great a threat terrorism really is as a form of warfare came out of my experience in Germany in the early 70s when the RAF (Bader-Meinhof Group) went on a bombing spree throughout Germany like you discribed.
Terrorists are free to network, organize and draw well trained recruits and material from any number of sources.
Terrorists are only loyal to the man above them, or the cause they choose to fight for. As an added bonus countries/ causes that inspire/ hire/ support/ use terrorists to conduct acts of war are free to deny their connection to such terrorists especially if such connections are well camouflaged.
Since they ususally do not swear allegiance to any one country or government, their status as either a criminal or a POW undoubtedly will cause disruption in the country/ countries in which they are to be tried for their actions. This is not to mention the added propangda and disruption that will be caused by such disruption.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 7/4/2008 11:44:59 AM >
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To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 11:42:43 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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everjoyful,
I feel that you are confusing human rights with freedoms and liberties.
Unfortuneately this seems to be another problem in the discussion as to how we, in the West, are to treat terrorists, and guard against them.
It is our freedoms and liberties that are the target of most terrorist actions because we look to the government to protect our freedoms and liberties. Unfortuneately, in order to respond to terrorist actions the government must curtail, or more strigently regulate our freedoms and liberties until the threat of terrorist action has been overcome.
It is also through the curtailing and strigent regulation and enforcement of regulations that helps the government identify and weed out individuals who maybe part of some threat to the country, our freedoms, and our liberties.
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!
Do not come back at me with that Ben Franklin quote about those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will have neither. I think that that is the most mis-used and misunderstood quote people like to use to defend their position that we are free to do whatever we like and our government has absolutely no responsibility to insure our security so that we could truely enjoy the human rights and freedoms that God offers everyone.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 7/4/2008 12:06:00 PM >
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To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 4:18:07 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 300
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
They had NO evidence. Locking people up forever without a trial or any evidence against them are the ways of tyrannies, old-time communist blocks and, recently, a disturbing trend with some of our allies.
And a disturbing trend in some of our allies is that they are appeasing radical Islam in a way very reminiscent to the appeasing of Hitler. There seems to be a kind of cognitive dissonance or willful blindness to the tyrants within their own borders, even as they point accusatory fingers at us.
quote:
Don’t ask youself why are they released, but why are there no evidence? Who made a huge blunder here?
There apparently WAS evidence enough to deport them. Quoting the article quote:
"Abu Qatada could have faced charges for lesser offenses under Britain's terrorism law. But since these would have imposed only short prison sentences, the government considered it preferable to deport him to stand trial for more serious crimes in his home country". The issue was NOT locking them up for life. It was releasing them back into society (with full priveledges of the British Nanny State) instead of deporting them. Get the facts straight, it will help you understand the cause of the next rash of suicide bombings on your side of the pond.
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RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/4/2008 8:26:37 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 280
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
Wormheart,
I believe your question about whether not terrorism is a new kind of war strikes to the heart of the issue. There are some, I believe (myself included) who see the present scope and use of terrorism as a new way for people groups to conduct war on one another. It is a form of warfare that has evolved and has proven very effective in a number of ways, in a number of areas throughout the world since World War II (the Israeli-Palestianian conflict)
My view of how great a threat terrorism really is as a form of warfare came out of my experience in Germany in the early 70s when the RAF (Bader-Meinhof Group) went on a bombing spree throughout Germany like you discribed.
Terrorists are free to network, organize and draw well trained recruits and material from any number of sources.
Terrorists are only loyal to the man above them, or the cause they choose to fight for. As an added bonus countries/ causes that inspire/ hire/ support/ use terrorists to conduct acts of war are free to deny their connection to such terrorists especially if such connections are well camouflaged.
Since they ususally do not swear allegiance to any one country or government, their status as either a criminal or a POW undoubtedly will cause disruption in the country/ countries in which they are to be tried for their actions. This is not to mention the added propangda and disruption that will be caused by such disruption.
I actually agree with most of your points, except the timeframe.
I realised later today, that probably the greatest example of terrorism comes from your own back yard.
How did the US fight the Ku Klux Klan?
They were the very epitome of terrorists – using lynchings, public burnings and mutilations as a mean to strike terror into the local blacks. They were even worse than Al Quada is today.
Someone sitting in a cave thousands of miles away and plotting against us?
Back then (and it is not long ago) blacks couldn’t go to the police because the police probably WAS KKK.
You remember the Rosewood massacre?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi | | |
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Can they not find seventy two in their country. Why blow yourself up, and when they are not virgins anymore then what do you do in muslim heaven? Yes, keep them locked up.
