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Church Discipline - 3/30/2008 4:16:23 PM
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LaurainAL
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Have you ever had an situation at your church in which scriptural church discipline was carried out?
If so, how long ago was the situation?
Also, with being too specific and venturing into the gossip world, what was the situation about? How did it end?
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/30/2008 7:56:47 PM
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elliemaejune
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
Have you ever had an situation at your church in which scriptural church discipline was carried out?
Yes.
quote:
If so, how long ago was the situation?
Over 30 years ago.
quote:
Also, with being too specific and venturing into the gossip world, what was the situation about? How did it end?
It was adultry. We had a meeting Sunday evening of members only. The two adulterers confessed their sin; the husband confessed that he had been unloving to his wife (he had some physical limitations that were part of the problem). We all asked the wife's forgiveness for any lack on our part, such as not noticing that she was lonesome or in need of fellowship, and as a congregation we accepted their confessions and forgave them.
There was a baby out of this relationship. We had a baby shower for the mother, but it was not announced in the church bulletin. Also, the mother was a singer, and she was not allowed to sing in church for several months (I forget how long...it has been over 30 years, after all!).
A divorce followed. The "other man" disappeared. The wife remarried. I don't know what happened to the husband.
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/30/2008 8:08:39 PM
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LaurainAL
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Thanks for the response ellimaejune. Was the church in agreement on how to handle it?
It has been my experience that there are always some who don't want church discipline practiced at all.
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/31/2008 4:16:21 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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From: Kansas City, MO
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There are always churches that venture into the area of "unsanctified mercy" (giving mercy without repentence), but that is what God tagged Thyatira and Pergamos for in Revelation 2 and 3. The other side of the coin is that I have see churches that have done the so-called biblical discipline thing incorrectly as well. Were the American church to do what the Bible actually says to in that situation, there would be a good many fewer in the churches of our nation. The number of people claiming to be "christian" in our country is actually an indictment on what we call "saved" and not a mark of good favor on the church.
The last time I saw this happen was about two years ago when a respected minister to my church returned to an alcohol addiction. His friend (our pastor) approached him about it, some time later approached him again with a couple fellow ministers, and then they took it to the church and told us all about it. We are still waiting for an outcome... but God knows what He is doing.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/31/2008 5:11:14 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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Our pastor's long time friend who was the choir leader committed adultery and had to be dismissed. The choir leader got a divorce and married the woman who also divorced her husband. Thirty years later I found out that the pastor and this man are serving together at another church. I don't have any more details but have wondered what has taken place.
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/31/2008 12:11:16 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4626
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In forty five years of ministry, dicipline has never had to go so far as for the Church as a body to shun someone.
There have been many occassions where folks have chosen sin over their faith, and it has been dealt with first by me personally, then if necessary by the board, but it was always resolved by that point and has never advanced to the Church as a whole.
I think the reason for this is that the person knows full well that I will take ti before the Church and they either choose to get right or get gone before that happens.
When I was in high school a man at our Church started an affair, and was even so brazen as to bring his girl friend to Church (when his wife and children were there). He was brought before the Church, refused to repent, and then pubically rebuked and told to leave the Chruch.
He came back a couple of weeks later and the Pastor had him physically thrown out of the Church. He never came back after that.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/31/2008 7:40:25 PM
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rlj
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quote:
He came back a couple of weeks later and the Pastor had him physically thrown out of the Church. He never came back after that.
That reminds me of The Apostle when Robert Duvall and I believe it was Billy Bob Thornton got into it. ; )
I remember seeing church discipline twice. Once was for a man who beat his wife constantly and she wouldn't press charges. I believe she left him and he got the boot. The other time was a man who it was believed was needy, the church gave him money, loaned him money and ultimately we found out he robbed us and was dealing drugs and what he ultimately got went to feed his habit. Both of these things happened almost 20 years ago. I am not sure what happened to the first man the second got himself straightened up and made it through a tech school but I have no idea if he ever actually repented.
I don't believe seeing something like this is a common thing partly because sin usually doesn't get exposed to the point of the congregation hearing about it. As RC said many people ultimately decide they want their sin over their faith or else they repent and try to get things straightened out before it gets "shouted from the rooftops".
I think if I ever witnessed a church where this kind of discipline was common I would almost think that it is an incredibly judgemental church. I have no problem or objection with biblical discipline exactly as I've heard it described here but some christians (myself at one time included) would expect the church to be just as much an inquisitorial board as a place of fellowship.
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-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Church Discipline - 3/31/2008 9:50:04 PM
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LaurainAL
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I would also hope that the church leaders would take the matter to the individual first before it is put before the church.
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/1/2008 5:26:09 AM
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Doghouse
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This is an interesting thread.
Question: What is the "due process" in this, to which every American is entitled, via the United States Constitution - for Churches located in the US?
Or - does the pastor and elder board get to render judgement without such a trial of the facts?
Any Churches worried about getting sued for defamation, invasion of privacy or civil rights violations for these kinds of behaviors? It could happen, based on a couple of the statements above, if these statements are indeed fact.
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"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/1/2008 5:54:24 AM
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rlj
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In the two cases I mentioned I am not aware that there was "a trial" so to speak in front of the entire congregation. It was brought to our attention what we as a congregation were supposed to do which was decided by the leadership. I am not aware that we pressed charges against the one man we could have pressed charges against.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/1/2008 11:19:34 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Question: What is the "due process" in this, to which every American is entitled, via the United States Constitution - for Churches located in the US?
The "Due process" is what is laid out in Scripture; one person approaches the person and tries to lead them back from their sin, if that does not work then a group will approach him (usually the board or Elders" if that does not work, then they are brought before the Church, the person is ask to repent, if that doesn't work the the congregation votes on banishment.
quote:
Or - does the pastor and elder board get to render judgement without such a trial of the facts?
Only in the case of a heretic (someone causing division) the ruling Scripture for that is;
(Tit 3:10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
quote:
Any Churches worried about getting sued for defamation, invasion of privacy or civil rights violations for these kinds of behaviors? It could happen, based on a couple of the statements above, if these statements are indeed fact.
If Scripture says do it; I do it. A Church is not a public institution; it is an association with membership that cam be given and taken away by however the Charter states. The person should know coming in what will get them booted out.
That brings up another point. Most Churches let anyone joijn that has an itch to do so, and get a lot of members who are not true Christianss. That is just asking for trouble down the road. Scripture tells us that those that "Believed" were added, not the non-believers.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/16/2008 6:41:32 AM
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Tomb
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Hi, the church I attend has disciplined many members over the years. I am one of those members. It is a sad but very powerful (encouraging) thing to go through. Out of 5 members who was disciplined,three have repented and returned to the church. Pretty good odds.
The scriptures we would use are (Luke 17:3,4) (Mt.18:15-17) (1Cor.5:5) (2Thess.3:6,14,15) (Phil.3:16,17). I would like to point out the little word "if" in several of the scriptures I listed. You see, it is up to the offender to put a stop to the discipline procedures. All he/she has to do is repent. But if the person in error refuses to repent, discipline procedures will continue if we love those in error (James 5:19,20) (Gal.6:1,2).
The reason for discipline can be found in (Acts 5:11).
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Watch GBNtv.org
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/17/2008 5:40:00 AM
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BibleL7
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Have seen three instances in past couple years. One a member openly entered into a relationship with a man and when she was asked about it she admitted to a sexual relation with the man and she was told as long as she was in the relationship she could not take part in ministry she decided she would leave church and was voted off role. One an officer of the church had a man move in with her she was asked and she claimed it was totally friendship and they had separate rooms. Shortly afterwards she was moving to another place and told the guy he would not be moving in to the new place. No action was needed on church part but the officers felt we did have to ask and let her explain. The third was a minister was recorded making inappropriate comments about another member. He was confronted by the pastor, deacon and minister witnessing. He agreed he was wrong and voluntarily signed up for an anger management program and made apology to the member and the membership. His license to preach was suspended till he had attended a few classes and the counselor said he was making progress with anger problem. He followed everything he said he would and his license was reinstated as per agreement. He was asked to be an interim pastor afterwards at another local church and will be installed as pastor Sunday.
At our church to become a member you must have made a profession of faith and been baptized. We ask all from other churches to give a testimony to the fact. They are usually always known by someone as we live in a very small town. If the pastor extends the right hand of fellowship then at the next business meeting they would be voted in by membership. Each is told that they are voted in as a formality so if it were necessary the could also be voted out. All done as our church By-Laws state and anyone can get a copy of them that asks. Many times we give a copy of Articles of faith and constitution before they decide to become members. We are an independent fundamentalist Baptist church and we follow the Bible.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 4/17/2008 6:13:26 AM >
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/17/2008 4:05:37 PM
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SweetPea83
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I can understand it if the person in question is in the ministry or on the board in a leadership roll in the congregation. (i.e., pastor, choir director, Sunday School teacher, etc.). OR, if the member's particular sin is disrupting or causing dissension in the congregation.
< Message edited by SweetPea83 -- 4/18/2008 11:14:07 AM >
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/30/2008 1:26:19 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 532
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
This is an interesting thread.
Question: What is the "due process" in this, to which every American is entitled, via the United States Constitution - for Churches located in the US?
Or - does the pastor and elder board get to render judgement without such a trial of the facts?
Any Churches worried about getting sued for defamation, invasion of privacy or civil rights violations for these kinds of behaviors? It could happen, based on a couple of the statements above, if these statements are indeed fact.
Why would any church subject itself to the US Constitution? I don't see any applicability?
Which kind of behavior would be subject to suit? I think some people are trying to attack church teaching and practice via Employment Law, but I am not clear on how someone might attempt to use a Civil Rights suit to attack Biblical practices in the church.
btw - the Constitutional "right to privacy" is questionable in my mind (especially in contemporary application) and I do not see any Biblical basis for a blanket "right to privacy" in the church either. I would not support a blanket right to pry and expose either...
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/30/2008 2:27:26 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4626
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetPea83
I can understand it if the person in question is in the ministry or on the board in a leadership roll in the congregation. (i.e., pastor, choir director, Sunday School teacher, etc.). OR, if the member's particular sin is disrupting or causing dissension in the congregation.
How about if the person's public sin is creting an unGodly reputation on the congregation of the Saints.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Church Discipline - 4/30/2008 2:51:11 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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My Church disciplines.
I have seen several cases of Church discipline. It's one of the marks of a true Church, one that teaches the whole counsel of God.
The most important case I ever witnessed, was a case when an Elder was repeatedly teaching false doctrine. He had been approached according to Matthew 18, privately, and then with other witnesses, but he refused to stop. Finally, the matter was brought before the entire Church.
We had a Church trial. The Elder in question was called in to testify for himself and another Elder was given him as an advocate. There were witnesses, a "prosecuting" Elder, and an Elder from outside the local Church to judge the matter. We even hired a court reporter, and the Congregation was invited to witness.
Everything was bathed in prayer. The offending Elder didn't even come, but his advocate, many times with tears in his eyes, fought his POV on his behalf. Everything was done in a way that gave honour to Christ...very humble, very sad, that things had come to this point. The Elder was stripped of his ordination and expelled from the Church.
Much grief. Many hugs. Lots of prayer. I cannot tell you how wounding this was to the men involved... I believe that if this wasn't called for in Scripture, they would not have done it.
In my denomination, everything has checks and balances, so all the Church court proceedings were sent to Presbytery for review.
Also, there is an order to how these things are done and at what point. Church court is the final step and is done with the purpose of bringing one to repentance. It's neither punitive, nor retaliatory.
In this case, the Elders had worked with this man for over a year before things reached this point...
But the model for all Church discipline is Matthew 18. My Church has done it over two teen-age lads repeatedly having fist-fights (once, a knife fight) in the Church car-park (confession before the Church and that was it); a women who had two children whilst unwed (again, confession before the Church and that was it); a man repeatedly arrested for drug dealing (after numerous confessions and repentances, he was asked to refrain from communion for a while). Most things are handled privately. My late Husband was an Elder....
Anyway, that's been it for the last 15 years. Usually, people are quick to repent and move on. But, sometimes...you know we are all stiff-necked folk!!! LOL!!!
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: Church Discipline - 5/9/2008 5:37:01 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 13261
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
Have you ever had an situation at your church in which scriptural church discipline was carried out?
If so, how long ago was the situation?
Also, with being too specific and venturing into the gossip world, what was the situation about? How did it end?
At the first church body that I attended back in the 80's, the Pastor fell into sin. He confessed to the leaders and took a sabatical. He later decided to go back into sin and the church followed Matthew 18 in its order and finally told the church body what was going on.
_____________________________
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." - John 13:35
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RE: Church Discipline - 5/14/2008 5:55:17 PM
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JesKlu
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The church I attend does discipline. I do remember Peter telling me one time the church we go to had to boot out a pastor. The board of Elders approached the pastor and said you have to leave, because he was teaching a few unbiblical things (false doctrine).
This was even before I met Peter, so I did not get to witness this.
And if you are continually delinquent in attending services, my church, according to Matthew 18, has the right to ask you to leave. I think that is a good thing.
Your sister in Chirst Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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