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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/22/2008 8:19:50 PM
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McFatty
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Is an alter istelf biblical, as far as in Christian worship?
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/22/2008 8:42:39 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Is an alter istelf biblical, as far as in Christian worship?
Yes, if you understand the sacraficial nature of the Eucharist.
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/22/2008 9:06:13 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Is a cross on an alter biblical? The answer changes based on what your definition of "biblical" means. If what you are asking is if the idea is specifically outlined in the Bible, the answer is no... because the Bible doesn't specifically outline sanctuaries either. However, if you definition of "biblical" includes derivatives of the concepts contained in the Bible, then yes. Christ was the sacrifice for our sins, so the altar and cross is symbolic of the same.
Adam
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/22/2008 9:16:11 PM
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TrustingGod
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The sacrificial nature of the Eucharist???? The Eucharist sacrificed nothing. I know, I know...it somehow changes molecular structure when the priest (a mere man) blesses it. The Eucharist should be seen as a symbol of Christ's body - not the actual body of Christ.
My church calls our prayer benches "altars" - a place where we can bow down physically before God. The cross is on the wall at the front of the sanctuary. I think we need to be careful not to get hung up on the physical aspects of our places of worship - as long as they are respectful to our God.
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/22/2008 9:48:47 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
If you wish to debate the nature of the Eucharist, please take it to the EUCHARIST THREAD.
Please keep this thread on the topic of the OP.
Note: If your belief is that the cross is appropriate because of the nature of the Eucharist, it is fine to state it here. However, if you do not believe this, please do not use this thread to argue about it.
Posts ignoring this nudge will be removed and a report filed against the user's account. If you posted prior to reading this nudge, please go back and delete you post.
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 7:18:59 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Is an alter istelf biblical, as far as in Christian worship?
I don't know. I'm thinking not, but am open for discussion.
My question has nothing to do with the Eucharist. I didn't know what that was when I made the post.
I am talking about any cross on any alter. Is it unholy for there to be an alter in a church and not have a cross on it?
I ask this because when Christ walked the earth, there is no mention of pulpits, or podiums with crosses on them or crosses period. He hadn't died to give the meaning to the cross yet. So how would a cross on an alter make it holy or unholy or even biblical.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 7:21:37 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
The early Protestant churches often had an open Bible on the altar.
Actually what most churches call the alter isn't truly an alter per se.
Biblically an Old Testament altars were to be made only of earth or else unhewn stone, on which no iron tool was used, and without steps up to them (Exodus 20:24-26). (Most modern altars are wood that has definitely been worked.)
Nowhere is an altar in the sacrificial sense in the Christian church recognized or described in the New Testament, so what goes on that particular piece of church furniture is pretty much up to those who are in charge of decorating the sanctuary.
What (if anything) is placed on it will likely be a symbolic sacrifice, a cross for that of Jesus, the collected tithes and offerings of the congregation (their sacrificial gifts to the Lord), or the communion items (again commemorating Christ's sacrifice).
Tim.
Thank you, that helped!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 2:32:46 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 998
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
Actually what most churches call the alter isn't truly an alter per se.
Biblically an Old Testament altars were to be made only of earth or else unhewn stone, on which no iron tool was used, and without steps up to them (Exodus 20:24-26). (Most modern altars are wood that has definitely been worked.)
Tim.
According to Ha Torah there can be no alter in use but in a temple in Jerusalem. Therefore, it could be said that the alters that many churches use viotate the commandment against any graven image as well as the commandment to make no sacrifice anywhere but in Jerusalem. This is the interpretation of many quakers and other congregational denominations. In those cases, adding a cross to it does not make it any better. In fact, it might even make it worse.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 2:44:22 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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We know that in the New Testament, the primary purpose for gathering was to break the bread for the Lord's Supper, rather than to look at an alter or a cross. This doesn't mean there can't be a cross, but I think we ought to focus on that primary purpose of gathering before we worry about this and that.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 3:02:39 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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.
In EVERY religion, an altar is where sacrafices are performed. If you don't believe in a sacraficial event taking place in your church, then there is no reason to have an altar.
This is why we have an altar:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp
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< Message edited by TheCatholicCrusader -- 7/24/2008 8:38:43 PM >
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/23/2008 8:57:21 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Although I understand your point, the purpose for an altar has ceased. There are no more sacrifices required since Christ made the perfect one. A new temple will not change that.
Even if one believes that there will be no temple in the future. That does not mean it is acceptable to have an alter for another purpose.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/25/2008 12:05:28 PM
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DougHorton
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The altar in the church is NOT for offering a new sacrifice, but for holding the bread and wine which is a very real biblical reminder of a very real sacrifice.
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/25/2008 6:48:52 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 998
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
The altar in the church is NOT for offering a new sacrifice, but for holding the bread and wine which is a very real biblical reminder of a very real sacrifice.
Then it would not be an altar at all, but a table as in the table for bread of the Presence. Altars are for burning things as in the the incense altar.
Also, if that which is on the table is for remeberence, it probably should be unleavened.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/25/2008 7:17:55 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 858
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
The altar in the church is NOT for offering a new sacrifice, but for holding the bread and wine which is a very real biblical reminder of a very real sacrifice.
Then it would not be an altar at all, but a table as in the table for bread of the Presence. Altars are for burning things as in the the incense altar.
Also, if that which is on the table is for remeberence, it probably should be unleavened.
Not all cultures burn their sacrifices. Not even in Leviticus was every sacrifice burned. Some sacrifices were released alive. Some sacrifices were poured on the ground. Some sacrifices were eaten.
As for whether it is leavened or unleavened, that is another discussion.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/25/2008 7:31:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 998
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Those that are not burnt are not placed on the alter.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/26/2008 1:21:25 PM
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iconoclast2
Posts: 3
Joined: 1/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
The early Protestant churches often had an open Bible on the altar.
Actually what most churches call the alter isn't truly an alter per se.
Biblically an Old Testament altars were to be made only of earth or else unhewn stone, on which no iron tool was used, and without steps up to them (Exodus 20:24-26). (Most modern altars are wood that has definitely been worked.)
Nowhere is an altar in the sacrificial sense in the Christian church recognized or described in the New Testament, so what goes on that particular piece of church furniture is pretty much up to those who are in charge of decorating the sanctuary.
What (if anything) is placed on it will likely be a symbolic sacrifice, a cross for that of Jesus, the collected tithes and offerings of the congregation (their sacrificial gifts to the Lord), or the communion items (again commemorating Christ's sacrifice).
Tim.
Thank you, that helped!
If we are saved by grace, then there are no sacrifices that will cause us to gain favor with God. It may not be wrong to have an piece of furniture and call it an altar, but it is a matter of religious tradition rather than scriptural mandate.
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/26/2008 1:33:59 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iconoclast2
If we are saved by grace, then there are no sacrifices that will cause us to gain favor with God. It may not be wrong to have an piece of furniture and call it an altar, but it is a matter of religious tradition rather than scriptural mandate.
Exactly.
So what is put on it also may not be wrong, but is a matter of personal choice or religious tradition rather than scriptural mandate.
Such items can easily become a object of veneration, which borders upon idolatry even though they started out as merely a reminder of some spiritual truth or great work of God.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:9)
He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (John 3:14-15)
It is convenient to have a table to place the communion elements upon, and other items as well...but calling it an alter may well lead giving those items greater import than is truly wise.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Cross on the alter - 7/28/2008 7:44:12 PM
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Bluethread
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BureanAardvark, Adonai has truly blessed you in your ability to connect to dots.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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