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Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 4:02:44 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
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From: Giulia
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Yom Kippur is in the eve of the 8th through to the 9th. As a Christian I am not bound by this but I woke up feeling quite heavy hearted today, like I wanted to give up or something, like some doomed event is ahead or something like that. I got to work and found one of the workers who had received a kidney and liver transplant died two days ago. She struggled all her life with these kidneys and liver disease. She took it well and was always quite cheery and even a little cheeky. It was a shock. then I got a ph call from my mother asking me what the date of my father's death was. I hardly felt like eating but ate anyway because I didn't want to feed into it. I got to my college and decided to look at the days in the Jewish calendar for no particular reason but to see if what I have been feeling all day is in any way connected to anything Holy. I am usually quite a spontaneous person. I do things quite randomly and so there is no rhyme or reason. Living by faith, for me is like that. Anyway, now i understand why I don't feel like eating and feel like someone has died or something like that. It is mostly about repentance, without which there is no atonement. Anyone got any thoughts besides judegmental ones?
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Rejected by the world but loved by heaven
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 4:22:20 AM
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galadriel2
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Thanks for the post, Giulia. It is somewhat difficult to follow what you are saying (for me). Maybe you woke up feeling that something bad was going to happen because our economy is sagging and so bad things could happen. Maybe you are gifted with some sort of spiritual gift (I don't know what you would label it under), but a gift that enables you to sense when something bad is going to happen - if that is a spiritual gift and not just something psychological. The sad things that you are thinking about that you wrote about would tend to kill someone's appetite, it seems to me. I have trouble seeing how you get from a sense of foreboding to repentance, though, and the Day of Atonement. Is it that you feel that the bad things that happen are a result of our sin and so we need to repent? I can give you some classic verses on forgiveness?...not that I am a proponent of quickly getting over our sin. We get over them way too easily in this day and age, but Scripture teaches that 'as far as the east is from the west so far has He removed our transgressions from us' (Ps. 103) and 'if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' (1 John 1:9) and 'but I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh' (Gal. 5:16).
God bless,
Galadriel
It is curious to me how you equate living by faith with living randomly and with no rhyme or reason. That isn't what living by faith is like. That is what the life of a secular existentualist is like. The Christian knows why he/she does what she does....God bless. It is also quite curious to me that you would even post what you did.
< Message edited by galadriel2 -- 10/8/2008 5:04:38 AM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 6:24:24 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 822
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
I have trouble seeing how you get from a sense of foreboding to repentance, though, and the Day of Atonement.
You must have some Jewish friends to grieve and pray for. Since they have renounced God's Lamb, there is no true atonement for them, only gloomy foreboding, a sense of unavoidable judgment to come. As the writer to the Hebrews put it, and you vicariously sensed,
quote:
Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hbr 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Hbr 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Hbr 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hbr 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
A good day for giving thanks to the God who enlightened us, and opened our eyes to behold the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world. A good day to have compassion on those who have no legitimate sacrifice, no place to offer it, and no priest to perform the rite. When God wiped out the Old Testament order in AD 70 (as every Jewish wedding ceremony recalls), He did so thoroughly.
Yet some folks would rather embrace a vacuum than God's lavish provision. May the day of repentance unto life draw near for them.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 7:33:53 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
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From: Giulia
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quote:
It is curious to me how you equate living by faith with living randomly and with no rhyme or reason. That isn't what living by faith is like. That is what the life of a secular existentualist is like. The Christian knows why he/she does what she does....God bless. It is also quite curious to me that you would even post what you did.
That is the way I live by faith. Saying there is no rhyme or reason is not true because IT IS a rhyme and reason in itself. I do things out of the ordinary when feel led by God. I pray for people when led by God and not by my own planning. I know why but not when or how. Existentialist is spelt like that, by the way (not being smart, just in case you want to know in the future). A Christian is also not an ambitious person yet the world is full of ambitious Christians who care way more about their home on earth than they do for the sick and hungry. I know exactly why I do what I do. Sometimes, however, I completely go against the norm of my usual daily habit to do something God places on my heart. I don't watch TV from a guide or schedule I watch it by faith, same with programs on the net. So tell me. Why do you think it's curious that I should post about the day of Atonement and my feelings in the day and what led me to understand what day it is? Do you celebrate Christmas? That is curious to me! Why people celebrate the birth of Christ on a day which is not the birth of Christ. God placed this feeling of heaviness on my heart and fact is: death to self is a constant thing we ought to do everyday and not just once. For me death feels dreadful and terrifying. Not something I terribly like to embrace with open arms and certainly not something I sing and dance about. Christ did not come to abolish the law but fulfil it, why do you think He said that?Not one jot will disappear;what does that mean to you?. I like to hear if other Christians observe this day or if it's only Christmas which the world has established that people observe and why.
quote:
Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hbr 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Hbr 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Hbr 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hbr 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Yes. Jesus DID say not one jot of the law will be wiped and for me salvation is a process which has begun the flame of glory and cleansing in the heart of my being. Each day I need to die to myself because myself likes to have it's own way and my flesh likes things which are contrary to the Spirit of Christ and I cannot have both my fleshly desires and cleansing and glory in my soul at the same time. Just does not go together. Sin which lives in my flesh is at war with the Spirit in my soul. I can only see the sin in my flesh when I have the Spirit in my soul.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 10/8/2008 7:51:47 AM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 3:53:34 PM
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Brenyada
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If you feel lead by the Spirit to partake in the Day of Atonement then do it. Romans 8:1"There is therefore now no condemation for thos who are in Christ Jesus." Follow your spiritual awakenings and lean toward the Lord where those awakening feelings come from and do not listen to man tell you don't have to do that. There is nothing wrong with repentance and restoration to draw yourself closer to God. That is the only way to draw closer to Him. God cannot be in the realm of unholiness and not one of us is free from sin, but we sure can get a little closer when we recognize our sin and repent. Luke 1:48 "For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave...... Sounds like Day of Atonement to me.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 4:46:43 PM
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drussell52
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Brenyada
If you feel lead by the Spirit to partake in the Day of Atonement then do it. Romans 8:1"There is therefore now no condemation for thos who are in Christ Jesus." Follow your spiritual awakenings and lean toward the Lord where those awakening feelings come from and do not listen to man tell you don't have to do that. There is nothing wrong with repentance and restoration to draw yourself closer to God. That is the only way to draw closer to Him. God cannot be in the realm of unholiness and not one of us is free from sin, but we sure can get a little closer when we recognize our sin and repent. Luke 1:48 "For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave...... Sounds like Day of Atonement to me.
I fully agree with Brenyada on this! Also suggest you look at the devotional The Voice Of The Lord, today's reading, 10/08, at studylight.org, quickest way to access it is type voice of the lord devotional in google. It talks of Jesus taking our sins on Himself using as an illustration a slave whose name is Onessimus recorded in the new testament epistle of Philemon. Your choice and for that matter, anyone elses too.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/8/2008 5:43:23 PM
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Giulia
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Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
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Thanks for your responses from both those who agree and those who don't in participation of this day. The Lord is Jewish and my heart is Jewish as I seek His praise more than the praise of man. Sometimes I struggle with this but it is certainly my aim and desire in life. Sometimes I go for days running on my own will, doing my own thing. Still praying and reading the bible but doing it my way. When I realise this and let go it is sad. I get sad. As I said I don't like to die. Repentance in essence is death to self, without which we cannot participate in His life.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/9/2008 7:44:33 AM
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galadriel2
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Giulia...thanks for your responses to our responses. Thanks for the correction of the spelling of 'existentialist' - for you judgement is 'judgment' unless you are reading from some older versions of the Q'uran (or is it Qur'an). I think you are confused on some issues and then more sincere on other issues - unless your post is just a joke in its entirety which suspect it is but I'm not judging as you asked. I'll leave that to God.
I think though that RJR hit the nail on the head, not to be too critical, but it is a helpful insight. I think you are confusing repentence and what it accomplishes and faith and what it accomplishes and because you (as far as I can tell) are not defining saving faith exactly correctly in your thinking it messes things up. You say 'Repentence in essence is death to self, without which we cannot participate in His life'. There is something wrong about what you are saying and I'm not sure I can put my finger exactly on it only to say that faith is the essence of death to self - not repentence. Repentence is changing your mind about something and consequently you change your direction. Faith is 'the gaze of the soul towards God' to borrow a phrase from A. W. Tozer. It is the most selfless activity that a person can do. Whereas after Adam and Eve sinned they 'knew that they were naked' the people in Matthew 25 who make it into heaven aren't even aware of the fact that they are doing acts of love for Christ. Adam and Eve's focus turned to themselves after they sinned and away from God.
It almost seems that you believe (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that your feelings manipulate external (sp?) events. Again, I think you are erring in your understanding of what faith is and what it does. The 'prayer of faith' (Js. ch. 5) manipulates external events - but not our feelings. And faith isn't random. Faith understands doctrine and then works it out into everyday life so the Christian understands why they do what they do. It isn't random at all.
Death is scary for sure, but God helps us. That is a 'pat' answer for sure. I can't think of anything else to say on that right now.
The Day of Atonement bit - well - it is a picture of Christ not the reality of Christ - the same way Christmas is. Just so long as you understand that. I would say that the Day of Atonement is a picture of Christ authorized by God Himself whereas Christmas came about through God's providence not His specific command.
With regards to ambition - nothing wrong with ambition as long as it is for Christ and what He has to give. In fact, you can't pursue Christ without it. Ambition becomes sinful when it is acting as a desire that is so strong that is acts like a command over our soul - when - let's say a hobbie is what we live for instead of Christ.
[Edited by moderator - TOS 6]
God bless you,
Galadriel2
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/9/2008 10:31:59 PM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/9/2008 6:23:56 PM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
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quote:
Giulia...thanks for your responses to our responses. Thanks for the correction of the spelling of 'existentialist' - for you judgement is 'judgment' unless you are reading from some older versions of the Q'uran (or is it Qur'an). I think you are confused on some issues and then more sincere on other issues - unless your post is just a joke in its entirety which suspect it is but I'm not judging as you asked. I'll leave that to God.
Yes, thanks for the correction. I misspell that word often. That e hides effectively behind the d & g  . Not sure how you think what I'm saying is a joke and not sure why you thought it curious I posted this either. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate (did someone else say that? )
quote:
I think though that RJR hit the nail on the head, not to be too critical, but it is a helpful insight. I think you are confusing repentence and what it accomplishes and faith and what it accomplishes and because you (as far as I can tell) are not defining saving faith exactly correctly in your thinking it messes things up. You say 'Repentence in essence is death to self, without which we cannot participate in His life'. There is something wrong about what you are saying and I'm not sure I can put my finger exactly on it only to say that faith is the essence of death to self - not repentence. Repentence is changing your mind about something and consequently you change your direction. Faith is 'the gaze of the soul towards God' to borrow a phrase from A. W. Tozer. It is the most selfless activity that a person can do. Whereas after Adam and Eve sinned they 'knew that they were naked' the people in Matthew 25 who make it into heaven aren't even aware of the fact that they are doing acts of love for Christ. Adam and Eve's focus turned to themselves after they sinned and away from God.
It almost seems that you believe (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that your feelings manipulate external (sp?) events. Again, I think you are erring in your understanding of what faith is and what it does. The 'prayer of faith' (Js. ch. 5) manipulates external events - but not our feelings. And faith isn't random. Faith understands doctrine and then works it out into everyday life so the Christian understands why they do what they do. It isn't random at all.
Firstly repentance is spelt like that. Without faith there is no repentance because there would be no need for it without faith. Though people can also repent for their unbelief, in which case there is also some faith there because they have faith their unbelief can be helped. I never said that my feelings manipulate external events. What I was trying to say is that my soul sometimes anguishes. This does not dictate anything but certainly an attitude of repentance contains anguish or grief of some sort otherwise it would not be repentance. Let me know when you get that finger on what you think is wrong with my relating repentance closely to death to self.
Thanks for trying to correct me in my faith. Faith is not, however, something which can be corrected. It is characterised by an action borne from belief and is quite spontaneous though sure. The Good Book says "the righteous shall live by faith", this eludes some people simply because they are not righteous, neither do they understand its meaning. the darkness does not understand the light. I am talking about the righteousness of Christ and not self righteousness, they are two different things.
[Edited by moderator - responding to deleted material]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/9/2008 10:33:53 PM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/10/2008 7:46:04 AM
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galadriel2
Posts: 405
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I think, Giulia, that repentance (got spelling right) can be done without any type of saving faith attached to it. It can have the false faith that James talks about, but repentance can exclude saving faith.
It seems that we both got warned and edited by ta_mosquito. Again, if I mistook you for someone else - please forgive me. I have some very wicked people involved in my life right now and they have been for several years. Sometimes because of what a person may say or do it is similar in some ways to what these 'evil' people do and I make a mistake about the person doing something similar - I mistake them for these 'evil' people. So I again beg your forgiveness if this is the case.
I can't figure out exactly why repentance isn't equal with death to self except to repeat what I said earlier - that faith is death to self, not so much repentance. Changing your mind - well - as an example - you can change your mind from serving one lust to serving another. Lets say someone is addicted to sex. Now lets say he/she wants to get over this and so they go to 'therapy' and the analyst tells them - you are better than this (then why are you doing it?). The analyst says other things like, 'This is harming you'. 'Think of your reputation.' So the person musters up a bit of will-power and voila - no more sex addiction. And in fact, this person falls in love with another person and they get married and so now the sex addict is only having sex with one person who happens to be their spouse. Has this person through all this exercised Christian, saving faith? No. Has there been any death to self? They have repented (changed their mind), but in repenting they have exchanged one lust for another. The pride of life has replaced the lust of the flesh - assuming the person followed his analyst's advice and realized that this addiction was hurting his reputation, self, and self-esteem. There has been no death to self and indeed repentance can't produce a death to self - only exchanging one lust for another - unless it is accompanied by Christian, saving faith. Saving faith as opposed to a false faith which is merely intellectual assent to the tenets of Christianity and perhaps a moral commitment to obey the commandments or something - but not a realization of personal helplessness and sinfulness in front of a holy God and a need to entrust oneself and one's life entirely to the saving work of Christ as Lord and Savior.
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/10/2008 1:40:15 PM
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splost
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I am a believer and I observe this day. About two years ago I struggled with observing it because it seemed solomn and the heaviness of it turned me off a little.
But, I just finished observing it. I felt the Lord's presence and came out feeling renewed. It is a day of publicaly (with other's) confessing your sins and focusing on the fact that Jesus is our atonement. It is a solomn day, but not a day without mercy.
Please don't shy away from it because it feels heavy. I am led to do it and it is the Lord's way of drawing me closer to him. He is not waiting with a baseball bat.
Blessings to you.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 3:17:00 AM
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GraceBro
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You can't trust your feelings. If you're feeling down, it is due to having "down" thoughts. Experiences surrounding the death of co-workers and family can definitely fuel those thoughts. There is nothing irregular about getting down from time to time, but don't mistake that for needing to participate in Jewish traditions that, actually, deny the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Christ's death is not an atonement. Atonement is a temporary covering of sin. The death of Christ took away the sins of the world for all eternity. By participating in these types of traditions you run the risk of missing what we have already received from God through faith in Christ. What is the Day of Atonement if it is not a time to perform sacrifices for sins? But, the New Covenant paints a totally different scenario for Christians.
"Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10: 17-18
As my pastor, who became a Christian during Yom Kippur while studying to be a rabbi, boldy proclaimed, "The promise certainly came through the Jews, but that has nothing to do with our needing to burden our lives with practicing Jewish traditions." We have to be careful not miss what we have in Christ participating in festivals geared towards foreshadowing what He was coming to do and has finished.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 4:18:54 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
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Faith brings us to repentance, which then brings us to death and subsequent resurrection. If you are trading one lust for another you have merely sewn on patches on the old garment. When the power of sin is broken in our lives we are no longer enslaved to sin. I am not replacing this day for anything. Just acknowledging it as a day my forefathers held sacred . I assume most people whop object to this, but you tell me. Do you celebrate Christmas on the 25th of Dec? The difference is that one was influenced by some rule made up by who knows who, the other was a custom of our forefathers. Where are our values, I ask.
quote:
But, I just finished observing it. I felt the Lord's presence and came out feeling renewed. It is a day of publicaly (with other's) confessing your sins and focusing on the fact that Jesus is our atonement. It is a solomn day, but not a day without mercy.
Yes, of course it is solemn. They can't celebrate until all the chosen have come to the faith. They stand in intercession for us as Jesus does first. There will be tears in heaven for those who don't make it.
It is different for us. When we are filled there is joy. A burden for the lost and the restoration of righteousness and justice. It is when you sow in tears and travail in the soul that it produces the most and best fruit, as when you toil the dirt to get a better crop.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 10/11/2008 4:25:25 AM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 9:50:24 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1211
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
You can't trust your feelings. If you're feeling down, it is due to having "down" thoughts. Experiences surrounding the death of co-workers and family can definitely fuel those thoughts. There is nothing irregular about getting down from time to time, but don't mistake that for needing to participate in Jewish traditions that, actually, deny the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Christ's death is not an atonement. Atonement is a temporary covering of sin. The death of Christ took away the sins of the world for all eternity. By participating in these types of traditions you run the risk of missing what we have already received from God through faith in Christ. What is the Day of Atonement if it is not a time to perform sacrifices for sins? But, the New Covenant paints a totally different scenario for Christians.
"Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10: 17-18
As my pastor, who became a Christian during Yom Kippur while studying to be a rabbi, boldy proclaimed, "The promise certainly came through the Jews, but that has nothing to do with our needing to burden our lives with practicing Jewish traditions." We have to be careful not miss what we have in Christ participating in festivals geared towards foreshadowing what He was coming to do and has finished.
Grace and Peace
In support of what GraceBro has written...
Colossians 2:13-17
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 10:47:22 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave His law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Gal 3:19
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 6:01:48 PM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
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From: Giulia
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God gave the law for those who were not able to keep it. To show up their sin. The law is a teacher but when we are in Christ we are free because Christ has fulfilled the law and we have love, which fulfils the law. Nevertheless many of us celebrate Christmas and Easter when in reality they are days which have been changed. We ask no questions but follow blindly these traditions which in reality have nothing to do with us. These are the traditions we ought to follow. It should make us happy because it makes Christ happy.
quote:
As my pastor, who became a Christian during Yom Kippur while studying to be a rabbi, boldy proclaimed, "The promise certainly came through the Jews, but that has nothing to do with our needing to burden our lives with practicing Jewish traditions." We have to be careful not miss what we have in Christ participating in festivals geared towards foreshadowing what He was coming to do and has finished.
I didn't come from the Jewish faith. For me it is not a burden to observe a tradition my Lord observed. It does not foreshadow what Christ came to do, it enforces it, for me.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/11/2008 8:40:04 PM
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GraceBro
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Giuila, whether you consider it a burden is not the issue. The Day of Atonement is a religious tradition that is in direct contradiction to the finished work of Christ. You are free to participate, but I don't believe you are accepting of Christ's finished work by doing so. Christmas and Easter may have been changed, but nobody denies that they are celebrations of the birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Day of Atonement denies Christ propitiating sacrifice for the sins of the world. You can't say Jesus took away all my sins and then go and involve yourself in a practice designed to get more forgiveness. They don't wash. When you try and live in law and grace you destroy both. The Law is robbed of its power. Grace is robbed of its liberty.
"Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." Matthew 9:17
Grace and Peace
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/12/2008 1:57:32 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
The Day of Atonement denies Christ propitiating sacrifice for the sins of the world. You can't say Jesus took away all my sins and then go and involve yourself in a practice designed to get more forgiveness. They don't wash.
I love Jewish people. In fact, the founding pastor of our church is one. Judaism, OTOH, consists of a cluster of anti-biblical traditions that were deliberately chosen in place of the Bible. As Jesus said, "If you truly believed Moses, you would honor Me, for he (Moses) wrote of me."
Jesus is not dispensable, no matter how many hundreds, now going on thousands, of years that a cult has managed to sustain itself after dispensing with Jesus.
And what atonement remains for people who have lost their hilasmos (mercy seat) and hilasmos (propitiation)?
My memory of the Greek might be imperfect. I do recall that when the publican prayed "O Lord, be thou merciful to me a sinner," merciful was the verb form of the noun referring to the mercy seat, the place of atonement. He was saved by the blood, not by his humility.
God's atonement is quite good enough, thank you. Accept no man-made substitutes!
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/12/2008 4:35:58 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 927
Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
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quote:
Giuila, whether you consider it a burden is not the issue. The Day of Atonement is a religious tradition that is in direct contradiction to the finished work of Christ.
I don't agree at all. I think the two can compliment each other quite nicely. It is written "you shall not exalt yourself against the branches" (to paraphrase)- Romans 11:18.
quote:
The Day of Atonement denies Christ propitiating sacrifice for the sins of the world. You can't say Jesus took away all my sins and then go and involve yourself in a practice designed to get more forgiveness. They don't wash. When you try and live in law and grace you destroy both. The Law is robbed of its power. Grace is robbed of its liberty.
I never said to go and live in the law and I never denied the day of grace. What I did say is that I was led to this day supernaturally and when I live in grace the law is fulfilled. I am saying that if you want to observe a day observe this one before you choose Christmas day (as we know it in the Westernised world).
I am not making any rule out of it as the law still stands if you do not choose Christ. Whether I say anything or not. Grace is not robbed of it's liberty at all because grace is what destroys the power of the punishment of the law. Jesus did not say he came to do away with the law but to fulfil it. In Christ the law is fulfilled in us. We are not bound by it. It is written on our hearts by the Finger of God. This is not a man made religion. This is a religion that stretches out across time to our ancestors. Some of which were also Christians.
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God's atonement is quite good enough, thank you. Accept no man-made substitutes!
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Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
I never said to judge. I never said to make this a law. I was sharing my experience and thought someone would relate; fellowship, I thought. It is meaningful to me as I have a Jewish heart. A heart bought by the blood of Christ and watered with the pure Living Waters that proceed from His throne.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 10/12/2008 4:46:18 AM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/12/2008 1:30:51 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4164
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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Yom Kippur can be and is observed by Messianics world wide as a celebration of Messiah's death and resurrection for us. The themes of repentance, forgiveness and redemption are not limited to the Mosaic covenant.
It also gives a clear example for traditional Jews of the shortcomings of Rabbinic Judaism and how the rabbis of Yavna missed it in regards to atonement for sin. There is no remedy for sin apart from shed blood, both in the Mosaic and New Covenants. In Yeshua/Jesus we have that. Rabbinic Judaism does not.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/12/2008 6:54:47 PM
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splost
Posts: 48
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I agree Dave
I understand some of you feel it's legalistic, but please understand that Christians can observe this in a Christ centered fashion if they wish.
Many Christians take days to fast. Just because some Christians happened to fast on the day of atonement to get closer to Jesus is not denying what CHrist did on the cross! Especially since the main meet of the service I went to was how we all need Jesus. The fast is mentioned in Acts 27:9 as well.
< Message edited by splost -- 10/12/2008 7:02:20 PM >
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/17/2008 12:09:32 AM
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GraceBro
Posts: 295
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We are all free in Christ. Therefore, you are all certainly free to participate in any traditions, rituals or festivals your heart desires. However, I believe to do so is an indication that you don't know what it is you already have received in Christ.
To quote my pastor, "I grew up with Jewish traditions, and continued to practice them for several years after I came to know Jesus as my Messiah, and in all honesty, I found no value in them at all. In fact, they were a serious hindrance with regards to my personal growth as they enforced a focus on myself, and completely distracted me from the love of God."
I don't expect to change any minds, nor am I interested in arguing law and grace. My desire is to give those onlookers, afraid or unwilling to enter this thread, the truth as it pertains to our life in Christ. We have something so much better than the shadows of Jewish traditions could ever provide.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/17/2008 3:19:53 PM
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Brenyada
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Lev. 16:29 "And this shall be a permanent statute for you......." permanent hears means without end. The world hasn't past away so I believe that is still in effect.
He knew the end from the beginning. If He knew the end why wouldn't it say it shall be a statue for you until My Son comes. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Romans: 11:1 " I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Gal. 3:7 "Therefore be sure it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. Remember you are grafted into the root. Hebrews 11:18 "do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, the the root supports you.
We absolutely don't look toward the law for salvation for Jesus is the High Preist who was the final sacrifice, but Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. (His words not mine.) He came to abolish the emnity of the law. Our ten commanents and many foundations are from the law and to say they are done away with means we don't have to follow the commandments, I am not agreeing to that. Nor can we be saved or justified by the works (sacrifices) of the Law, but by faith of Jesus.
Rev. 14:12 "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
It doesn't say just those who just keep the commandments.
And not those who just keep their faith in Jesus.
But BOTH, keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus.
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RE: Day of Atonement - 10/18/2008 2:42:24 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 295
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quote:
He knew the end from the beginning. If He knew the end why wouldn't it say it shall be a statue for you until My Son comes.
You said it, not me. "..until My Son comes."
"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come...So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3: 19, 24-25
Christ is the end of the law. As you say, He didn't come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill it because we could not and cannot live up to its standard of perfection. The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ by showing us our sinfulness and need for life eternal. Once we accept Christ by faith, we are no longer led outwardly by rules designed to show our sinfulness, but inwardly by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is why the Word says we are no longer under the supervision of the law. The law has not been abolished. But, we must understand that the law is for the lost, not the godly.
"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." 1 Timothy 1:8-11
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