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ORIGINAL: EricPR239

Desperation = Lack of faith and or obedience of God's Will.

Specifically in the sense of being single, some people only the negative aspect of being single. When analyzed thoroughly, the negative aspects of being single are generally taken from misinterpreted verses in the Bible, secular/worldly pressure, friends' immature experiences and so forth.

It is somewhat understandable that a 16 year old person could get desperate for a romantic partner especially when friends of them are in a relationship. Considering also that the media press people to feel interest in romanticism, now including sex, the lack of faith in God to wait for the right person increases, and when we go forth on the analysis we can discover easily why >60% of marriages fail and a higher percent of relationships before also fail.

1> A selfish attitude: Selfishness is a very important ingredient for a relationship's demise, because God's structure for a human romantic relationship is not based on me, or you, but both. In another thread I explained for example my opinion on having children. I WOULD LIKE (or have liked, since I'm a permanent single) to have children, but it is not as easy as just give birth to him/her. Children grow, they become men, and they become aware of good and evil, and unfortunately, evil is way over good in this planet, since the devil and the demons are rampaging around Earth and this people are getting more tolerant to some sins. But my opinion of the aspect, in a relationship, does not count alone, if I have a girlfriend I have to listen to her opinion about having children. Most women WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN no matter how, but they are more skilled in children's education than men; but for a Christian not only a good physical and emotional development counts, but also a spiritual one. This means that there is no way possible I can have a relationship with an atheist woman, because atheists do not pursue or care about spiritual development. Because I already know there is no way I can get along a relationship with an atheist I do not waste my time pursuing such a relationship and then try to impose my will, because it would be selfish.
2> tolerance towards sin. Christians are, basically, opposed to killing, stealing, gossiping, and such sins which directly harm an individual, but they are becoming more tolerant towards premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion and other things that are not in the order of the nature that God created. I can respect people who decide for a premarital life, or an homosexual life, but there is no way I can agree with such. Premarital sex is unnecessary, a clear sign of distrust between two partners, and a lazy decision as people want to escape from the responsibilities of a marriage. Hanging out together on the daytime should be enough for a relationship to know how much they love each other, they do not have to freakin' test or prove it on a bed. What if you have an accident and you lose the genitals? Does the "true love" depends on sex? Please...

3> lack of communication and inability to admit mistakes. Yes, "love" can be killed when one or both of the people in a relationship do not admit mistakes, blame the other on the mistakes, and worst of all, refuse to try to improve in that aspect. If I were a husband, I would never scream on my wife because I do not have my food prepared when I come from work. I can ask her, kindly, what happened because sometimes in life things happen. Neither I would make her iron or wash my clothes; I expect help from her, not obligations. We are a society who should be able to do the things we need to learn to do. If a problem happens, I explain or seek an explanation with my mind open for rightful understanding, and not thinking on the negative only. I also do not impose my way of thinking. And expect her to not impose me ideas, she tells me and I decide to agree or disagree. The most basic and serious disagreements will be known from a friendship phase, that means I will not become the husband of a woman who sponsors and recommends premarital sex. She might be "indifferent" or "respectful" toward the matter, but she cannot sponsor it. Sin sponsors are not equally yoken with Christians.

These are only three of many reasons.

A relationship has to be fed not only by love but consideration, honesty, patience and the will to admit each other with the virtues and defects. If the defects are too serious, such relationship cannot be created. I believe a healthy relationship comes from a friendship phase, in which we know the virtues and defects. If we can handle the defects, good. But we cannot "bet" and then discover we can't handle the defects. And if a serious defect is born while in a relationship, pertinent help (from a pastor, a professional psychologist, family member, etc.) should be searched before considering a break-up or a divorce.

Because divorce must be avoided, it is a sin when is not justified and for the record, the only two acceptable reasons for a divorce is a willful unfaithfulness or abuse which can endanger someone's life. Anything else- "the in-laws intervene too much", "I can't stand his loud voice", economic reasons, and especially "he/she is useless in bed" are all rubbish.

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1> A selfish attitude: Selfishness is a very important ingredient for a relationship's demise, because God's structure for a human romantic relationship is not based on me, or you, but both.

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Premarital sex is unnecessary, a clear sign of distrust between two partners, and a lazy decision as people want to escape from the responsibilities of a marriage. Hanging out together on the daytime should be enough for a relationship to know how much they love each other, they do not have to freakin' test or prove it on a bed. What if you have an accident and you lose the genitals? Does the "true love" depends on sex? Please...

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3> lack of communication and inability to admit mistakes. Yes, "love" can be killed when one or both of the people in a relationship do not admit mistakes, blame the other on the mistakes, and worst of all, refuse to try to improve in that aspect

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A relationship has to be fed not only by love but consideration, honesty, patience and the will to admit each other with the virtues and defects. If the defects are too serious, such relationship cannot be created. I believe a healthy relationship comes from a friendship phase, in which we know the virtues and defects. If we can handle the defects, good. But we cannot "bet" and then discover we can't handle the defects. And if a serious defect is born while in a relationship, pertinent help (from a pastor, a professional psychologist, family member, etc.) should be searched before considering a break-up or a divorce.

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ORIGINAL: EricPR239
1> A selfish attitude: Selfishness is a very important ingredient for a relationship's demise, because God's structure for a human romantic relationship is not based on me, or you, but both. In another thread I explained for example my opinion on having children. I WOULD LIKE (or have liked, since I'm a permanent single) to have children, but it is not as easy as just give birth to him/her. Children grow, they become men, and they become aware of good and evil, and unfortunately, evil is way over good in this planet, since the devil and the demons are rampaging around Earth and this people are getting more tolerant to some sins.

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This means that there is no way possible I can have a relationship with an atheist woman, because atheists do not pursue or care about spiritual development. Because I already know there is no way I can get along a relationship with an atheist I do not waste my time pursuing such a relationship and then try to impose my will, because it would be selfish.

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2> tolerance towards sin. Christians are, basically, opposed to killing, stealing, gossiping, and such sins which directly harm an individual, but they are becoming more tolerant towards premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion and other things that are not in the order of the nature that God created.

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I can respect people who decide for a premarital life, or an homosexual life,

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A relationship has to be fed not only by love but consideration, honesty, patience and the will to admit each other with the virtues and defects.

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I believe a healthy relationship comes from a friendship phase, in which we know the virtues and defects.

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Because divorce must be avoided, it is a sin when is not justified and for the record, the only two acceptable reasons for a divorce is a willful unfaithfulness or abuse which can endanger someone's life. Anything else- "the in-laws intervene too much", "I can't stand his loud voice", economic reasons, and especially "he/she is useless in bed" are all rubbish.

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ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

EricPR,

What an interesting essay. But allow me to pick your brain for a moment?

How do the three points you listed below tie in with desperation? This question is not meant in jest, but seriously. Are you suggesting desperation leads people to make poor moral choices, or are you suggesting that desparation causes the breakdown of relationships? Although the title and thesis of your post seems to reflect something of singles being desperate, the rest of your post talks about the failure of relationships based on things other than desperation.

On to your three points . . .

1. Selfishness:

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1> A selfish attitude: Selfishness is a very important ingredient for a relationship's demise, because God's structure for a human romantic relationship is not based on me, or you, but both.

While I completely agree that selfishness is a detriment to a relationship, and both people should honor the other in a biblical relationship leading to marriage or marriage . . . I do believe the center of a relationship should be God. People who hinge their relationships on each other, often feel it is OK to bail out when the other person doesn't hold up their end of the bargain. Marriage is something God creates; and we as Christians find ourselves remiss not to put honoring Him and keeping His word at the center of our unions.

I also believe that a relationship should be God-centered. But we have to understand that not everybody who marry are Christians (for example, a marriage between atheists, or islamic, or buddhists, etc.) and what I try to explain is a way that marriage should be regardless of what we know from God and the Bible. While two people might have their religion or lack of religion, at least if they really love each other they should not think in a selfish way but in a way that both have a happy life together.

2. Tolerance Toward Sin:

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Premarital sex is unnecessary, a clear sign of distrust between two partners, and a lazy decision as people want to escape from the responsibilities of a marriage. Hanging out together on the daytime should be enough for a relationship to know how much they love each other, they do not have to freakin' test or prove it on a bed. What if you have an accident and you lose the genitals? Does the "true love" depends on sex? Please...

Good point. Never thought of it that way.

3. Lack of Communication

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3> lack of communication and inability to admit mistakes. Yes, "love" can be killed when one or both of the people in a relationship do not admit mistakes, blame the other on the mistakes, and worst of all, refuse to try to improve in that aspect

All of it seems pretty okay, except the part I bolded. How can love be killed?

Love is patient, love is kind, love is longsuffering, love is gentle, love bears all things, proves all things, hopes all things, love NEVER fails (ceases/ends).

The Bible tells me love truly NEVER fails. If someone tells me, Oh, I fell out of love with someone, my thoughts are, maybe you never loved them to begin with. Most people associate love with good feelings. If I stop having good feelings about you, and you become incooperative, hostile or mean, then I've fallen out of love. This is why the divorce rate is so high. When people fall out of "good standing" with another, they break a covenant vow they made with God and their spouse because they are no longer in good standing with the individual they married. God is not so conditional, though. He stands by His words, and commands us to be people of our word. Love is not merely a feeling or a situation of good graces between people, true love is tested when the recipient of your love couldn't give a flying fig. The bible says, "herein is love, that while you were still sinners, Christ gave His life for you." God loved you while you were an enemy of the Cross, gave the ultimate sacrifice while you still cursed Him and waited patiently for your return and reconcilliation. Today, we don't know what love is. We say it can be "killed" and that is the reason a marriage, "didn't work out."

This is why I said "love", and not love without the quotation marks. People believe that "love" is what is shown in TV and movies.

Your last comment brings a certain scripture to mind:

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A relationship has to be fed not only by love but consideration, honesty, patience and the will to admit each other with the virtues and defects. If the defects are too serious, such relationship cannot be created. I believe a healthy relationship comes from a friendship phase, in which we know the virtues and defects. If we can handle the defects, good. But we cannot "bet" and then discover we can't handle the defects. And if a serious defect is born while in a relationship, pertinent help (from a pastor, a professional psychologist, family member, etc.) should be searched before considering a break-up or a divorce.

The bible says that before setting out on a journey or building a house, sit down and count up the cost. The Bible also makes the same analogy to those who would accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. When we say yes to Jesus Christ, we are saying yes to be His Bride. As singles, we must "count up the cost" when considering marriage. Definately evaluating whether we are able to handle defects and ramifications. Likewise we are to do the same before entering a covenant with Jesus Christ to be His bride. Count up the cost. I believe, many singles and pre-married are not counselled adequately about what marriage really means.

There is a HUGE GI-NORMOUS difference between breaking up and divorce. A breakup is between two separate individuals. Divorce seeks to break a covenant or a vow made between two people AND God. BIG OLE difference. Anytime you are going to make a covenant with God, whether it is becoming a Christian or Two becoming one as in marriage, it is a consideration of NO little import! It is to be considered with GREAT weight and gravity. Count up the cost. Breaking a covenant with God is not a good thing to do--and in both circumstances, rejecting Jesus Christ's grace after coming to the knowledge of Him, and breaking your word with Him in a marriage vow is frightful thing. Paul said, those who reject Him, by going on into knowing sin, have only a fearful expectation of His wrath, because they've trampled on His blood which is His covenant. It's not good to trample on God's covenant, whether it was made in flesh (marriage) or Blood (salvation).

I personally believe that, though they are not the same (and you made the description very good), a break-up should be avoided if the problem that would provoke it is really not significant. Because a relationship status before marriage is basically a practice for marriage: two strangers will never marry unless they test how they work together as a couple. For example: if a boyfriend is having a discussion with his girlfriend because of an economic situation, they should end up with a good solution, if they have problems they have to do the best in them to reconcile differences. This of course depends on the seriousness of the situation. If the situation has a solution breaking up quickly before trying to save the relationship would mean that the person needs to learn patience in order to enter marriage. We have to try to understand all implications in a moment of problem between two people who love each other. We cannot begin breaking up with all people who are not like we want them to be. A good thing to learn while in a relationship before marrying is to stop blaming the other for some reason when a situation occurs: that shows mediocrity and is not a good sign for a good marriage. Instead we have to think: "Why did she/he do that? Did I do something to cause this? What are the reasons? Maybe she/he was forced, or could not handle the situation appropriately but was not the intention, etc.

Welcome to the forums!

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ORIGINAL: John_O

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricPR239
1> A selfish attitude: Selfishness is a very important ingredient for a relationship's demise, because God's structure for a human romantic relationship is not based on me, or you, but both. In another thread I explained for example my opinion on having children. I WOULD LIKE (or have liked, since I'm a permanent single) to have children, but it is not as easy as just give birth to him/her. Children grow, they become men, and they become aware of good and evil, and unfortunately, evil is way over good in this planet, since the devil and the demons are rampaging around Earth and this people are getting more tolerant to some sins.

Exactly the way it was in Christ's day, and in David's day, and in Moses's day, and in our father's day. No nothing is new under the sun. We can either quit and run and hide or we can go forth and be fruitful and multiply (By making new converts and/or by raising new Christians)

No. It is NOT the same. In Moses', Christ's and David's day evil has prevailed over good like now, but TODAY the evil has been JUSTIFIED and DEFENDED, not only by the society but by the superior human authorities including government and the church. Today, we are seeing some Christian divisions marrying homosexual couples, we are seeing governments approving abortions, because of the "woman's right to decide over her body", premarital sex is highly defended, etc. So it is not exactly the same. The society today is much more libertine than before.

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This means that there is no way possible I can have a relationship with an atheist woman, because atheists do not pursue or care about spiritual development. Because I already know there is no way I can get along a relationship with an atheist I do not waste my time pursuing such a relationship and then try to impose my will, because it would be selfish.

All of your reasons, while good, are trivial. God says Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. You can't have a relationship with an atheist becasue God says not too. What more do you need?

I don't need any other explanation, but some people do. A very good thing that Christians should do in order to convert unbelievers and re-save weak Christians and some agnostics is to explain why the Bible forbids something. You know, to say that "this is not right" because "the Bible says no" is like a child asks his parents why he can't do something and the parents reply "because I say so".

We know that God is perfect so we do not really need a thorough explanation of why God forbids something, but it is always good to know in order to convert others who are more "arrogant" and want to have good reasons to not do something. If you checked the original post I explained my opinion of why premarital sex is wrong. It is not necessarily because of lust, but because of other reasons. I can say "Because the Bible says fornicators will not inherit heaven, but you know such will never convince an atheist, or a rebel weak Christian or a person from another religion. If the reasons do not convince them then let they decide with their free will what they want. God will do proper judgment. I, instead, do not like condemning people to hell, that is not merciful.

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2> tolerance towards sin. Christians are, basically, opposed to killing, stealing, gossiping, and such sins which directly harm an individual, but they are becoming more tolerant towards premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion and other things that are not in the order of the nature that God created.

Can you be a Christian and be anti-Christ and anti His bible? Personally I don't think so. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing. We need to judge their fruit to see if they are real. (Just as living in a garage does not make one an automobile, going to church does not make one a Christian)

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I can respect people who decide for a premarital life, or an homosexual life,

I can't. I can pray for them, feel pity for them, but can't respect them.

Respect and acceptance are not the same. When Jesus came he did not hang out with pure-hearted people, but with prostitutes, criminals, unbelievers and the like. What I mean by respecting fornicators and homosexuals is that I don't ignore them, or act in prejudice against them. I do not oppose that they have housing, jobs and a normal life EXCEPT that I do not accept or respect the idea of them simulating the natural order of a man and a woman. God did not make Adam and Steven, or Eve and Mary. Two men do not reproduce. And taking the reproduction away from the matter, the though of a man feeling sexual attraction to another man makes no sense whatsoever to me. I have always questioned myself if a couple of homosexuals are really a couple of friends who have confused the meaning of true and unconditional friendship with that of sexual/physical attraction. I do oppose that they marry by the church (but am indifferent if they marry by law, since human law is not perfect and an unmarried homosexual relationship or a man-only approved marriage of homosexuals does not make any difference and they are still sinning against God. And I absolutely oppose the idea of them adopting children or raising children, not only it is an abomination but they are psychologically exposing their children to unnecessary school bullying (like: "Hey! Look the boy who have two dads! LOL!", etc.). See? But I do not dare to say they are going to hell, yet. Why are they homosexual? What happened? Were they raped? Did someone contribute to such behavior? Were they raised properly? I cannot judge gays. As per fornicators, I can say the similar. I explained why it is wrong, apart from what the Bible says. But maybe they think in another way and God knows if they have their reasons or if they are just looking for cheap justifications.

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A relationship has to be fed not only by love but consideration, honesty, patience and the will to admit each other with the virtues and defects.

Correct. But all these things are an outgrowth of deciding to love that person.

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I believe a healthy relationship comes from a friendship phase, in which we know the virtues and defects.

Big can of worms here. We'll have to disagree on this. To most men, "Friends first" mean "marriage never"

Well I am not that kind of man. (Though it does not matter anymore since I'm not looking for a relationship anyway I would only look for friendship). I cannot understand why or how could I become the boyfriend of a stranger. Physical characteristics and "sympathy" are not enough for me. I do not know what are her religious views and unless we are friends I cannot know that for sure. Today people lie and I believe we need to be careful. What if she is utterly decided to have four children, when I struggle to even consider one? I cannot say I won't have children, and I said why I struggle with the idea. I like children and would like to have but life is not a fairytale and this world offers to much scum to children and adolescents. I cannot be with my children when I work or when they are in school. By now, I discard having four. It is crazy in my opinion. Children are not free, and if I have children I want the best for them. Back to the friend-relationship matter: What if she believes in premarital sex and she struggles and struggles to convince me just to fail in the end? I refuse to see sex as a vital thing to test in a relationship. If I have a terrible accident and I lose my genitals I do not want her to leave me. Do you understand my point?

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Because divorce must be avoided, it is a sin when is not justified and for the record, the only two acceptable reasons for a divorce is a willful unfaithfulness or abuse which can endanger someone's life. Anything else- "the in-laws intervene too much", "I can't stand his loud voice", economic reasons, and especially "he/she is useless in bed" are all rubbish.

You missed abandonment. If they choose to leave you can let them.

Some interesting discussion But I wasn't able to determine what point you were trying to make. Please help me out of my mental muddle here and be blatant.

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ORIGINAL: EricPR239

Again, my responses are in bold blue.

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ORIGINAL: John_O
Exactly the way it was in Christ's day, and in David's day, and in Moses's day, and in our father's day. No nothing is new under the sun. We can either quit and run and hide or we can go forth and be fruitful and multiply (By making new converts and/or by raising new Christians)

No. It is NOT the same. In Moses', Christ's and David's day evil has prevailed over good like now, but TODAY the evil has been JUSTIFIED and DEFENDED, not only by the society but by the superior human authorities including government and the church. Today, we are seeing some Christian divisions marrying homosexual couples, we are seeing governments approving abortions, because of the "woman's right to decide over her body", premarital sex is highly defended, etc. So it is not exactly the same. The society today is much more libertine than before.

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This means that there is no way possible I can have a relationship with an atheist woman, because atheists do not pursue or care about spiritual development. Because I already know there is no way I can get along a relationship with an atheist I do not waste my time pursuing such a relationship and then try to impose my will, because it would be selfish.

All of your reasons, while good, are trivial. God says Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. You can't have a relationship with an atheist becasue God says not too. What more do you need?

I don't need any other explanation, but some people do. A very good thing that Christians should do in order to convert unbelievers and re-save weak Christians and some agnostics is to explain why the Bible forbids something. You know, to say that "this is not right" because "the Bible says no" is like a child asks his parents why he can't do something and the parents reply "because I say so".

We know that God is perfect so we do not really need a thorough explanation of why God forbids something, but it is always good to know in order to convert others who are more "arrogant" and want to have good reasons to not do something. If you checked the original post I explained my opinion of why premarital sex is wrong. It is not necessarily because of lust, but because of other reasons. I can say "Because the Bible says fornicators will not inherit heaven, but you know such will never convince an atheist, or a rebel weak Christian or a person from another religion. If the reasons do not convince them then let they decide with their free will what they want. God will do proper judgment.

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I, instead, do not like condemning people to hell, that is not merciful.

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I can respect people who decide for a premarital life, or an homosexual life,

I can't. I can pray for them, feel pity for them, but can't respect them.

Respect and acceptance are not the same. When Jesus came he did not hang out with pure-hearted people, but with prostitutes, criminals, unbelievers and the like. What I mean by respecting fornicators and homosexuals is that I don't ignore them, or act in prejudice against them. I do not oppose that they have housing, jobs and a normal life EXCEPT that I do not accept or respect the idea of them simulating the natural order of a man and a woman. God did not make Adam and Steven, or Eve and Mary. Two men do not reproduce. And taking the reproduction away from the matter, the though of a man feeling sexual attraction to another man makes no sense whatsoever to me.

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I have always questioned myself if a couple of homosexuals are really a couple of friends who have confused the meaning of true and unconditional friendship with that of sexual/physical attraction.

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I do oppose that they marry by the church (but am indifferent if they marry by law, since human law is not perfect and an unmarried homosexual relationship or a man-only approved marriage of homosexuals does not make any difference and they are still sinning against God. And I absolutely oppose the idea of them adopting children or raising children, not only it is an abomination but they are psychologically exposing their children to unnecessary school bullying (like: "Hey! Look the boy who have two dads! LOL!", etc.).

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See? But I do not dare to say they are going to hell, yet.

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Why are they homosexual? What happened? Were they raped? Did someone contribute to such behavior? Were they raised properly? I cannot judge gays. As per fornicators, I can say the similar. I explained why it is wrong, apart from what the Bible says. But maybe they think in another way and God knows if they have their reasons or if they are just looking for cheap justifications.

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Big can of worms here. We'll have to disagree on this. To most men, "Friends first" mean "marriage never"

Well I am not that kind of man. (Though it does not matter anymore since I'm not looking for a relationship anyway I would only look for friendship). I cannot understand why or how could I become the boyfriend of a stranger. Physical characteristics and "sympathy" are not enough for me. I do not know what are her religious views and unless we are friends I cannot know that for sure. Today people lie and I believe we need to be careful. What if she is utterly decided to have four children, when I struggle to even consider one? I cannot say I won't have children, and I said why I struggle with the idea. I like children and would like to have but life is not a fairytale and this world offers to much scum to children and adolescents. I cannot be with my children when I work or when they are in school. By now, I discard having four. It is crazy in my opinion. Children are not free, and if I have children I want the best for them. Back to the friend-relationship matter: What if she believes in premarital sex and she struggles and struggles to convince me just to fail in the end? I refuse to see sex as a vital thing to test in a relationship. If I have a terrible accident and I lose my genitals I do not want her to leave me. Do you understand my point?