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Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/12/2008 11:42:15 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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I've just read a very interesting piece about the Ten Commandments and the U.S. Government:
HERE is the link.
It's no wonder why our country is messed up so bad, with violent crime on the rise, lack of moral standards, unborn babies being heartlessly slaughtered, lack of respect for the elderly, etc. I can't hardly wait for Jesus to come back to straighten it out.
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Melissa
<---Smokey
Tribute to a Good Friend (Blog Entry)
MY CAT POST
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 6:53:52 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2028
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Why is everybody so concerned about the commandments hanging in various public spaces? Most of the commandments aren't laws:
1) You shall have no other gods before me (NOT A LAW)
2) You shall not make for yourself an idol (NOT A LAW)
3) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God (NOT A LAW)
4) Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (NOT A LAW)
5) Honor your father and mother (NOT A LAW)
6) You shall not murder
7) You shall not commit adultery (NOT A LAW)
8) You shall not steal
9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (ONLY A LAW SOMETIMES)
10) You shall not covet your neighbor's house (NOT A LAW)
11) You shall not covet your neighbor's wife (NOT A LAW)
(I realize there are 11 - different religions group them differently)
Those that aren't already laws would be pretty difficult to codify into laws (not to mention enforcing) without some fundamental changes to our legal system. 1-4 are exclusively judeo-christian - unless you want a theocracy, you can't have those as laws. For #5, how do you legally define "honor" and would it still be consistent with the idea of individual liberties? I can see an argument being made for #7, but how do you legislate covetousness for 10-11?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 9:33:07 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2028
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Why is everybody so concerned about the commandments hanging in various public spaces? Most of the commandments aren't laws:
Dan,
By that reasoning, we should not worry about anything being displayed. What does being a law have to do with it?
The general attitude amongst many evangelical Christians seems to be that our legal system is based upon the 10 commandments. It isn't.
Perhaps my point isn't totally relevant to the OP, but it's come up before.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 10:32:22 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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What I find ironic is that in their zeal for displaying the commandments, people break the commandments.
We should worry more about obeying the commandments, and less about hanging them up everywhere.
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 11:21:55 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1428
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I've just read a very interesting piece about the Ten Commandments and the U.S. Government:
HERE is the link.
It's no wonder why our country is messed up so bad, with violent crime on the rise, lack of moral standards, unborn babies being heartlessly slaughtered, lack of respect for the elderly, etc. I can't hardly wait for Jesus to come back to straighten it out.
I find it VERY odd that that "article" did not mention what you see when you enter the courtroom at the U.S. Supreme Court.....
"friezes" in the marble....giving credit to the MANY who, in some way or another, had influence over the way our laws, here in the U.S. are today......
The 18 lawgivers looking down on the justices are divided into two friezes of ivory-colored, Spanish marble. On the south wall, to the right of incoming visitors, are figures from the pre-Christian era -- Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius and Octavian (Caesar Augustus). On the north wall to the left are lawmakers of the Christian era -- Napoleon Bonaparte, Marshall, William Blackstone, Hugo Grotius, Louis IX, King John, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Justinian.
now....why did they mention that the 10 commandments were on the door walking in.....but, FAILED to mention that the images of Muhammad, Confucious and the others are right there with it?....
so, ALONG WITH the 10 commandments....perhaps some "context" and acknowledgement of other influences would be appropriate.....instead of the "agenda" that it was the 10 commandments, and nothing else, that shaped the laws as they now are.
btw...violent crime is at historic lows in many areas of the country.....and abortions have ALWAYS occurred (they didn't just start up the day after roe v. wade)....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 11:27:39 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
I find it VERY odd that that "article" did not mention what you see when you enter the courtroom at the U.S. Supreme Court.....
"friezes" in the marble....giving credit to the MANY who, in some way or another, had influence over the way our laws, here in the U.S. are today......
The 18 lawgivers looking down on the justices are divided into two friezes of ivory-colored, Spanish marble. On the south wall, to the right of incoming visitors, are figures from the pre-Christian era -- Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius and Octavian (Caesar Augustus). On the north wall to the left are lawmakers of the Christian era -- Napoleon Bonaparte, Marshall, William Blackstone, Hugo Grotius, Louis IX, King John, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Justinian.
now....why did they mention that the 10 commandments were on the door walking in.....but, FAILED to mention that the images of Muhammad, Confucious and the others are right there with it?....
so, ALONG WITH the 10 commandments....perhaps some "context" and acknowledgement of other influences would be appropriate.....instead of the "agenda" that it was the 10 commandments, and nothing else, that shaped the laws as they now are.
btw...violent crime is at historic lows in many areas of the country.....and abortions have ALWAYS occurred (they didn't just start up the day after roe v. wade)....
FYI - this is why that article has it slightly wrong. Displays where the 10 commandments are shown in the context of other historical lawgivers are fully constitutional. Displays where it's the ONLY lawgiver shown are not.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 11:57:21 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1428
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
I find it VERY odd that that "article" did not mention what you see when you enter the courtroom at the U.S. Supreme Court.....
"friezes" in the marble....giving credit to the MANY who, in some way or another, had influence over the way our laws, here in the U.S. are today......
The 18 lawgivers looking down on the justices are divided into two friezes of ivory-colored, Spanish marble. On the south wall, to the right of incoming visitors, are figures from the pre-Christian era -- Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius and Octavian (Caesar Augustus). On the north wall to the left are lawmakers of the Christian era -- Napoleon Bonaparte, Marshall, William Blackstone, Hugo Grotius, Louis IX, King John, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Justinian.
now....why did they mention that the 10 commandments were on the door walking in.....but, FAILED to mention that the images of Muhammad, Confucious and the others are right there with it?....
so, ALONG WITH the 10 commandments....perhaps some "context" and acknowledgement of other influences would be appropriate.....instead of the "agenda" that it was the 10 commandments, and nothing else, that shaped the laws as they now are.
btw...violent crime is at historic lows in many areas of the country.....and abortions have ALWAYS occurred (they didn't just start up the day after roe v. wade)....
FYI - this is why that article has it slightly wrong. Displays where the 10 commandments are shown in the context of other historical lawgivers are fully constitutional. Displays where it's the ONLY lawgiver shown are not.
Exactly....and even the ACLU has "supported" that very premise....displays in which the 10 commandments are shown "in context" with other influences of the law......(but, "agendas", like the one of that Roy Moore guy, get in the way of that being possible)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 1:40:16 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
OK. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I believe our laws should be more of a reflection of the Commandments. Society certainly would be in better shape. IMHO, that is an aside for the base argument though.
agreed...if we are to have any morality what-so-ever, then we need to define the basis of it, where it comes from...
fulfill reason with history. if people want to have other lawmakers posted, then fine post them...doesn't bother me...10 commandments will always be the most popular...
and believe me, the more junk that surrounds the Truth, the more the Truth shines...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 3:17:01 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1428
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
the more junk that surrounds the Truth, the more the Truth shines...
how can the other items be considered "JUNK"?....it would only ACCURATELY illustrate that the origins, and influences, of our laws come from more than just one source.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 4:28:18 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2992
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
7) You shall not commit adultery (NOT A LAW)
In some states it is still a law and one can sue for the alienation of affection.
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/13/2008 10:45:40 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 686
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
I find it VERY odd that that "article" did not mention what you see when you enter the courtroom at the U.S. Supreme Court.....
"friezes" in the marble....giving credit to the MANY who, in some way or another, had influence over the way our laws, here in the U.S. are today......
The 18 lawgivers looking down on the justices are divided into two friezes of ivory-colored, Spanish marble. On the south wall, to the right of incoming visitors, are figures from the pre-Christian era -- Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius and Octavian (Caesar Augustus). On the north wall to the left are lawmakers of the Christian era -- Napoleon Bonaparte, Marshall, William Blackstone, Hugo Grotius, Louis IX, King John, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Justinian.
now....why did they mention that the 10 commandments were on the door walking in.....but, FAILED to mention that the images of Muhammad, Confucious and the others are right there with it?....
so, ALONG WITH the 10 commandments....perhaps some "context" and acknowledgement of other influences would be appropriate.....instead of the "agenda" that it was the 10 commandments, and nothing else, that shaped the laws as they now are.
btw...violent crime is at historic lows in many areas of the country.....and abortions have ALWAYS occurred (they didn't just start up the day after roe v. wade)....
FYI - this is why that article has it slightly wrong. Displays where the 10 commandments are shown in the context of other historical lawgivers are fully constitutional. Displays where it's the ONLY lawgiver shown are not.
Exactly....and even the ACLU has "supported" that very premise....displays in which the 10 commandments are shown "in context" with other influences of the law......(but, "agendas", like the one of that Roy Moore guy, get in the way of that being possible)
What do you want to bet that even in context they wouldn't allow the 10 commandments to be displayed at your kids "totally awesome" public school, or any other public place where they aren't already on view. Do you think that if a public display incorporating all of the other influences on law were to be commissioned, sans the 10 commandments, that the ACLU would step in and say "whoa there, this isn't in context, we cant allow this"?, of course not. The context argument is phony.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 10:02:40 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1428
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
What do you want to bet that even in context they wouldn't allow the 10 commandments to be displayed at your kids "totally awesome" public school, or any other public place where they aren't already on view. Do you think that if a public display incorporating all of the other influences on law were to be commissioned, sans the 10 commandments, that the ACLU would step in and say "whoa there, this isn't in context, we cant allow this"?, of course not. The context argument is phony.
the 'context argument' is what makes them "constitutional" to be displayed at the U.S. Supreme Court....in a PUBLIC government building....
and, actually, I wouldn't really be wanting the 10 commandments posted at school. what would be the point of doing so? for many, it's the political spectacle of it all.
do the people who are REALLY 'Gung Ho' on posting the 10 commandments, ready to post similar texts of many other religions, as well? (especially taking into consideration the diversity of our school)
note that this has to do with government endorsed/public property displays....there is NOTHING that prohibits any display on any private property/business, nor has anyone challenged any such display.....
so, our public school is still "totally awesome".....children are free to "exercise" their rights to practice their religion (the ACLU REGULARLY upholds the rights of kids to pray and read their religious texts, or other activity, when done so on their own initiative).....and, government stays out of the "endorsement" business....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 10:32:01 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
the more junk that surrounds the Truth, the more the Truth shines...
how can the other items be considered "JUNK"?....it would only ACCURATELY illustrate that the origins, and influences, of our laws come from more than just one source.
you misunderstood me...yes, the other essences of law come from those sources (i.e. confucious, muhammed, etc.), but all good moral law is inherently derived from the Bible (10 commandments-the laws from God, and then, Jesus's commandments). thus, all of the other lawmakers of past religions, cultures, etc. are junk compared to God's...
man's works are filthy rags compared to the finger of God on the 10 commandments. (and believe me, I am being modest by calling it junk, rubbish)
what gets me is that they should build a statue of Montesquiue if they want to ACCURATELY display our origin of gov't...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 11:43:54 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
What do you want to bet that even in context they wouldn't allow the 10 commandments to be displayed at your kids "totally awesome" public school, or any other public place where they aren't already on view. Do you think that if a public display incorporating all of the other influences on law were to be commissioned, sans the 10 commandments, that the ACLU would step in and say "whoa there, this isn't in context, we cant allow this"?, of course not. The context argument is phony.
No, the context argument has been very well tested in the courts and upheld consistently. Would the ACLU step in to say "whoa there, the 10 commands are missing from your collection of legal influences?" Not specifically, no they would not. If your display however had a primarily Eastern flavor to it, or was out of balance in some other fashion that made it appear that any one particular flavor was being favordd, they might well point that out and argue for a broader display. They would likely not however argue for the inclusion of any one specific source - that would violate the underlying principles behind "context".
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 4:03:01 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 686
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
No, the context argument has been very well tested in the courts and upheld consistently.
Actually that is not true:
"In 2000 the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a Ten Commandments monument on the lawn of the City of Elkhart's Municipal Building be moved. Now, another Ten Commandments display has been ordered removed from an Elkhart County office building. The reason it wasn't unexpected is surely because they know that the courts don't approve of governments trying to support and endorse particular religious beliefs or principles. The fact that this Ten Commandments display was in the context of other historical documents might have saved it in some cases, but if the record makes it clear that the other documents were just an excuse to promote the Ten Commandments, then the court couldn't have justified ruling any other way. Why can't people learn that the government has no authority to promote their religion? ". source http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/04/01/elkhart-ten-commandments-monument-ordered-removed.htm
So it seems context is not ironclad if it is determined (mind reading) that the addition of other sources in the display are only a means to an end. Can you show any other case concerning the public display of historical sources for law or government that were slanted towards another belief system (secular humanism being one) that have been deemed unconstitutional?
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 4:03:27 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
4) Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (NOT A LAW)
It was (A LAW) when I was growing up. Nothing was open - even pharmacies. You planned knowing that the local grocery store was going to be closed all day Sunday.
Then it became a limited law, where only certain things were sold and certain kinds of businesses were open.
And even now, in the places I've lived as an adult, alcoholic beverages could not be purchased in stores or restaurants on Sunday.
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RE: Did You Know? The 10 Commandments & U.S. Gov't - 8/14/2008 6:17:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
No, the context argument has been very well tested in the courts and upheld consistently.
Actually that is not true:
"In 2000 the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a Ten Commandments monument on the lawn of the City of Elkhart's Municipal Building be moved. Now, another Ten Commandments display has been ordered removed from an Elkhart County office building. The reason it wasn't unexpected is surely because they know that the courts don't approve of governments trying to support and endorse particular religious beliefs or principles. The fact that this Ten Commandments display was in the context of other historical documents might have saved it in some cases, but if the record makes it clear that the other documents were just an excuse to promote the Ten Commandments, then the court couldn't have justified ruling any other way. Why can't people learn that the government has no authority to promote their religion? ". source http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/04/01/elkhart-ten-commandments-monument-ordered-removed.htm
So it seems context is not ironclad if it is determined (mind reading) that the addition of other sources in the display are only a means to an end. Can you show any other case concerning the public display of historical sources for law or government that were slanted towards another belief system (secular humanism being one) that have been deemed unconstitutional?
Not really.
The City of Elkhart case was decided in conformity to the principal of secular context. The issue of secular context was voided when the city explicitly gave religious meaning to the monument by, among other things, having the principal speakers at the dedication ceremony be a priest, a rabbi, and a protestant minister (sounds like the beginning of a bad joke!)
There was more than just mind reading at stake. Context can be read to include the events and circumstances under which a display is erected. In this case, Elkhart shot themselves in the foot via their dedication ceremony which was implicitly religious.
Granted, it's a bit of a fringe case. Initially, the courts ruled in favor of Elkhart but it was overturned on appeal. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear the case, letting the appeal ruling stand. Three justices, however, dissented and thought the case should have been heard. This leaves portions of the question of context open to judicial review, but the general principal remains well tested and consistently applied where there aren't unique little twists involved like the City of Elkhart introduced.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/14/2008 6:44:58 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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