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Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 7:02:13 AM
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Tom_Foole
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From: Canada
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Greetings,
I'm an atheist but I want to know more about you. Unlike most atheists, I wasn't a Christian when I was younger. I've been an atheist my whole life. So I'd like to get to know my fellow neighbour.
Do you believe that God is actively taking part in this world? I see nothing that has convinced me yet that he does.
I remember after some tragedy that people said "God did it to punish us" while other's day "God allowed it to happen because we turned our back on him" while other's yet said that "God is the reason why anyone survived." In general, do you believe that God is actively manipulating the world around you?
Thanks, and have a great weekend.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 7:23:24 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1984
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God has His hand on everything. I don't believe He cause bad things to happen. I think He allows them to happen based on them being a natural consequence of our choices.
Take the floods for instance. God didn't cause the floods. Yet, in the aftermath, God was there, he still is. For some, it has been a faith breaker, for many others it has been a faith maker. We don't see the widespread result of His Almightiness. We can't see every person this has affected. There will be stories of encouragement and testimony from thousands of individuals of God's loving and providing hands. We won't know the results of even just one of those testimonies.
He does this all the time. We hear of tragedy, don't but don't see the end result. This is where we just have to trust.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 9:11:08 AM
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makarizo
Posts: 2996
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God sends rain on the just and the unjust. -Mt 5:45
Part of understanding God is understanding that He is love. in a world that is fallen, that chooses to separate itself from Him, a world that chooses to be its own god and to serve the god of this world.
the principle, and the rule is that we reap exactly what we sew.... and so will our grandchildren.
and in all of this, God, Who has complete foreknowledge of everything, continues to love, and has provided a way for man to escape the consequence of his own shortcoming.
if this country turns its back on God, we will reap exactly what we sew.
that is our choice.
as for God intervening.....this is a product of prayer.
Jas 5:16 ...... The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 9:19:53 AM
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mvic
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God allows things to happen - good and bad.
We don't really know why. Perhaps we're not meant to know.
Maybe our role is to trust Him that when He allows things to happen it is part of His plan.
Of course, we too can make things happen - good and bad.
This also is part of His plan.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 9:35:30 AM
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Concerto
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Good question. If one looks at the news, where killing, and horrific acts of evil are committed on a daily basis, one could come to the conclusion that God is not involved in our world, because if He was, He would act more to put an end to such atrocities.
But, we must not be quick to jump to conclusions. God has given us freedom to choose. If we choose to do bad things, we cannot blame God.
God has a plan. He is working in this world. But quite often we are too busy and wrapped up in petty things to even notice His actions.
In addition, we must remember that His ways are not our ways. Our minds, at this point, are finite. Fully comprehending His actions in our world is not possible.
"Those who seek me diligently will find Me." Prov 8:17
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 10:02:42 AM
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Tom_Foole
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From: Canada
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Thank you everyone who has already reply!
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Take the floods for instance. God didn't cause the floods.
I'm pretty sure the Bible says he did. Here it is, Genesis 7:4: "Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
Concerto said we are giving the freedom to choose, which makes sense to me. But makario said that God does intervene. But wouldn't God intervening require him in some cases to make someone somewhere else choose differently then they would with free will? So, for example, God couldn't have someone approve or disapprove of some paper work, right? If he intervened, it would only be on the level of natural processes, and not the choices other people make?
So he couldn't make some bureaucrat approve your application to a government program, or to have your banker choose to give you a mortgage, or for an employer to hire you, because that involved free choice. Or does God have a way around this?
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Your friendly, neighbourhood atheist... who loves jokes!
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 10:09:51 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6209
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It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed “acts of God” while no “credit” is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather.
God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work.
Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.
The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God sometimes influence the weather? Yes, see Deuteronomy 11:17 and James 5:17.
Does God sometimes cause natural disasters as a judgment against sin? Yes, see Numbers 16:30-34. The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16).
Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.
In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to demonstrate the consequences sin has had on Creation.
Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the universe we inhabit. Everything in Creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.
So, we are back to where we began. We can understand why natural disasters occur.
What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia?
Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of hundreds of thousands of people?
What we can know is this…God is good!
There are many amazing miracles, in instances of natural disaster, that occurred - preventing an even greater loss of life.
Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people that are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray - and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/3/2008 12:15:50 PM
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butterfly616
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From: California
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I've been a Christian, Born Again, since 1970. In the world and in my personal life I have seen and experienced tragedies. Does God intervene? Yes! Does He intervene in the way I expect Him too? Not always. Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding."
I prayed for my daughter. Every day on my knees. As I prayed, my heart was full of trust that the Lord would take care of her. My own understanding was that she would be fine. In 2005, she died at the age of 29.
I asked, "Why?" of God. I trusted Him to help my daughter, and instead He let her die. Over time, I have realized that "my own understanding" was that she would live. I trusted the Lord, but with my own idea of how He would answer my prayers. God's way was not MY way.
I fully trust and believe that we who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior will live with him for eternity. (John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.") My daughter loved the Lord with all of her heart. She is not dead, she's alive with Christ. This has been my comfort.
Why God chose to take my daughter, I don't know. My heart is broken. I miss her more than words can say. I know that she is with Jesus, who loves her more than I can imagine. I turn to my faith, to the Word of God, and realize that I must trust Him "with all my heart" and not try to figure it out.
The Lord loves us, so very much. Sometimes it's difficult to understand why a loving God would allow tragedies. Yet, He sees the full picture, while we only see a small part of it.
Romans 8:38, 39:
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[o] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything. Tell God what you need and thank him for all he has done. Philippians 4:6
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/4/2008 6:39:15 AM
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Tom_Foole
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I would like to thank everyone who responded here for your views on the subject matter. Thanks for your input.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/5/2008 3:26:15 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 219
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom_Foole
I'm an atheist but I want to know more about you. Unlike most atheists, I wasn't a Christian when I was younger. I've been an atheist my whole life. So I'd like to get to know my fellow neighbour.
Greetings to a fellow atheist. We have remarkably similar objectives - when asked, I've made the point before that I'm here to understand the beliefs of 2bn people with whom I share Planet Earth. I like to think that's a good thing, and I'm glad to say there are plenty of folks round here happy to indulge my queries.
I started a thread on this topic a while back, but don't think I followed up some of the replies - by the time I remembered to do so, the thread had long died. Link is here:
http://forums.christianity.com/m_3339858/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3339858
Intervention is certainly a topic that interests me... in a thread on something else, I've just raised the point that I struggle to understand the intentions of a god who is actively concerned with ensuring an adequate supply of money to middle class Americans (in the case of a windfall of cash coming to the believer), yet didn't do anything to stop the conception of mass-murdering dictators like Stalin and Hitler, and is clearly not doing everything in his powers to stop the starvation in poorer parts of the world... thought I'd throw that one out there.
AiP
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'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/6/2008 1:49:22 AM
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purplepearl
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Yes, I do believe that God intervenes in our lives but I also think that He set up a perfectly just system that acts all on its own. I believe that every single time we sin we will bear a consequence because that is how God set the system up - even if we think we "got away with it" -we have not. I believe that through prayer, we can request the Lord to intervene and He chooses to do so if it is in His Sovereign will. I also believe that the Accuser is permitted to intervene in our lives by God in order to sift us to be more like Christ. Trouble brings forth change.
As believers of Christ we are not promised happy tragic-free lives. We are also not promised happiness as a result of obeying the law. Our earthly reward for obedience is a closer relationship with the Lord and the incredible satisfaction that comes when we are directly in His will. It is our trust in Jesus Christ that gives us peace in the most difficult times and reassurance that the season in our lives will end. Does God bring His wrath upon those who stray from Him? Absolutely, but he also is slow to anger and a very patient Lord. He allows us the opportunity to repent and turn from our sin on our own (with only the conviction of the Holy Spirit). It may appear that the Lord has not intervened while in fact, He has or will. Either He is waiting to intervene or He has and we just don't realize it. Sometimes the conviction from sin itself is a consequence enough. Every person is different and the Lord knows EXACTLY what we can handle.
Before I decided to accept Jesus Christ as my savior I had a few "problems" with Christianity.
One was that "good" people don't go to heaven and that all my efforts to be "good" up until that time in my life seem to be for nothing according to the Christian church. After becoming a believer I realized that being free from the "law - moral/legal/societal, etc." is an incredible gift. Once I died to my flesh/ego I was able to experience a more relaxing and happy life. The less control we take in our lives the happier we are - but this is a very difficult thing to do. As a Christian you slowly surrender more and more to Christ and THIS is when you realize that God does in fact intervene because you are no longer grinding the wheels! I was amazed at what happened in my life when I let go and let God handle me. He really does guide us in the right direction. You just have to give it to Him.
One of the other "problems" I had with the Christian faith was "why would God create us and then require us to change to be more like Christ? Why wouldn't He just make us like that to begin with?" Well, I once heard an analogy which really helped things for me. Would you feel loved and glorified if you created a bunch of robots who were programmed to love you? God is the same way. I was also confused because God knows what we are going to do, so why do we actually have to live life through? This is what I came up with: it is for the same reason we put together model airplanes. We know what it will look like but there is a lot of satisfaction in actually putting it together and watching it develop. Notice that when putting together a model airplane, you have your hand on it at all times even though you know what it will look like. "Problems" develop, ie broken pieces, etc., and you put the pieces back together only so that the final airplane will look as you planned it to!! (these analogies are not perfect, but what is?)
I hope this helps.
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/6/2008 2:06:57 AM
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justasheep
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quote:
I've just raised the point that I struggle to understand the intentions of a god who is actively concerned with ensuring an adequate supply of money to middle class Americans (in the case of a windfall of cash coming to the believer), yet didn't do anything to stop the conception of mass-murdering dictators like Stalin and Hitler, and is clearly not doing everything in his powers to stop the starvation in poorer parts of the world... thought I'd throw that one out there.
AIP,
I've been meaning to post for some time but have lacked time as of late. You seem to be bringing up the age old problem of evil or theodicy as it is termed in some circles. My take on this might be somewhat different than has been previously addressed.
I propose that it is not logically incoherent that God is at the same time all-powerful and completely good while at the same time sovereign over the entire universe. My question to you is how do you determine what is evil and what is not? You would claim it is logically impossible to believe in an all-loving and all-powerful God within the framework of our lives. BTW, I am very sympathetic to the evil that is so pervasive and am not just easily explaining it away to Sin only. As you have rightly surmised, if God is God then why does so much evil or sin exist?
I submit that your problems with evil are more psychological or spiritual (if you will) in nature than logical. The problem of evil from a logical standpoint is more a problem for the atheist than the Christian. I know this alot to swallow and I will explain myself more but I would first like to view your questions and/or objections so I can see where you stand
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/6/2008 2:31:46 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
I don't believe He cause bad things to happen. I think He allows them to happen based on them being a natural consequence of our choices.
This statement is not according to Scripture. God does "cause bad things to happen" because they are His judgments. And there are many more "bad things" which are prophesied to come upon this earth as a result of His righteous judgments. Read the book of Revelation.
quote:
God allows things to happen - good and bad.
God certainly "allows" things to happen. But He is by no means a passive spectator. He rules in the afffairs of men. He intervenes in the lives of His saints through prayers. He intervenes in the lives of sinners through the Gospel. He intervenes in the lives of all creatures through His providential care. There is not a single creature that is outside His watchful eye.
God is not a Deist god who created this universe and now passively stands back to let things take their course. While we may not fully understand the implications of natural disasters, or why God allows monsters to exist on this earth, or why there is so much human suffering because of sin and its consequences, we should be totally clear that God is sovereign in His own universe and all things occur because He wills it to be so. God has a purpose for everything.
The atheist should also be totally clear. If God were not intervening in the affairs of men, Christ, the Son of God, who is also the eternal Word of God, would not have come to this earth, suffered, bled, and died, and risen again. The Lord Jesus Christ is the clearest evidence that God will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. This is the most gracious intervention on the part of the Almighty.
Because the Creator also became our Redeemer, we can be absolutely certain that God loves every human being and offers the gift of eternal life to all who will believe and repent. At the same time, His wrath rests upon those who do not believe and obey the Gospel and who despise His Son and what He did on the Cross.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does God Intervene - 8/6/2008 3:02:19 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
God certainly "allows" things to happen. But He is by no means a passive spectator. He rules in the afffairs of men. He intervenes in the lives of His saints through prayers. He intervenes in the lives of sinners through the Gospel. He intervenes in the lives of all creatures through His providential care. There is not a single creature that is outside His watchful eye.
God is not a Deist god who created this universe and now passively stands back to let things take their course. While we may not fully understand the implications of natural disasters, or why God allows monsters to exist on this earth, or why there is so much human suffering because of sin and its consequences, we should be totally clear that God is sovereign in His own universe and all things occur because He wills it to be so. God has a purpose for everything.
Ezra,
I couldn't agree with you more with this statement. Good to see we can have agreement after all, more than that I appreciate your passion in this statement. It brought a smile to my heart. 
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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