Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a Messianic synagogue?
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Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a Mess... - 5/8/2008 4:18:08 PM
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graftedintoo
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My question has been redirected from the Messianic section to this section, the Church.
I am not Messianic but we have some family members (all gentile) that now are. They joined a Messiancic synagogue in their area. Ever since this happened and they left their church, they have pulled farther and farther away from us.
I guess I am looking for some kind of support as our daughter and her family have totally withdrawn from the rest of the family unless they need something. My daughter told me, "Christians just don't get it." They are Christians too but don't want to call themselves that anymore as the Messianics do not call themselves Christians. The grandkids now think they are Jewish, told my husband he would die if he had to work on Shabbat, have corrected us numerous times that we are not supposed to be calling our saviour by the name of Jesus, that we should not be eating certain foods...and stuff like that. We were not invited to their home for Thanksgiving or Christmas (they celebrate both) and our daughter never calls her father anymore. No honor to him. Our daughter posts on her blog about Jewish things and Jewish holidays but never mentions Jesus (or by His Hebrew name-Yeshua.) We have, in the past, always enjoyed a close relationship with them, in and out of church. We have not tried to "talk" with them about it. We have not tried to influence their decisions. We have just been watching the changes and it has been rather painful to be rejected in the name of their new "religion." We are supposed to all be Christians and new creatures in Christ. Now, somehow, they are behaving as if they have arrived at a step above Christianity.
I have read a lot about Messianic Judaism since this began and believe I do understand it in regards to Jewish people that get born again. It's this reaction in our gentile family members that puzzles me. This has not created unity in our family. Just the opposite. I know no one knows why these particular people have rejected us but I was hoping that maybe someone has had some experience with this type of thing or maybe have known others that this has happened to. I am hoping that someone might have some wisdom to share with me.
Thank you so much.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/8/2008 4:20:44 PM
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stellaluna
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My family attended a Messianic synagogue and what you describe is very odd to me. I have known many other Messianics and what you describe doesn't apply to any of them either.
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"Everything Stellaluna said (I do agree with her, honest)." -- miasma
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/8/2008 4:27:43 PM
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graftedintoo
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Thanks for answering. I really do not think the synagogue or Messianic Judaism is the problem. We have attended some here in our city and they are very respectful and reverent. It seems to be the way that our family members are approaching it.
Their services on Saturday, which are online, are interesting. They are not for me but they do preach the Bible.
The changes we see in our daughter and her family are real though and very troubling.
< Message edited by graftedintoo -- 5/8/2008 4:38:55 PM >
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/8/2008 8:14:53 PM
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stellaluna
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So they're not actually attending a synagogue?
Maybe they are misunderstanding what they hear.
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"Everything Stellaluna said (I do agree with her, honest)." -- miasma
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/8/2008 8:35:42 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 166
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From: Torrance, California
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My wife and I have some good friends who attend a Messianic congregation and what you are describing does not fit their behavior.
I think your daughter is in a congregation that is a little on the radical or extremist side. This happens in all denominations. There are some leaders who take an extremist position and get legalistic about their beliefs.
We can hurt for you, but we also pray that you will find your joy and peace in God's grace, even towards those who are extreme in their beliefs, and that He will guide you in patience while you hope for them to realize the extremism and come back into fellowhip in a more moderate group, Messianic or otherwise.
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Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/8/2008 9:15:04 PM
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graftedintoo
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Yes, they attend a Messianic synagogue. I've watched one of their services online but I am sure that doesn't mean much. Most of it was in Hebrew during the first part anyway. I dont' know if they are radical or not.
I am really sorry they don't see their behavior. I am going to be praying the scripture in Ephesians that God will open the eyes of their understanding. I don't want to interfere with anything that God has for them and only want them happy and blessed.
Thank you for your answers and encouragement.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/9/2008 5:49:36 AM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: graftedintoo
We are supposed to all be Christians and new creatures in Christ. Now, somehow, they are behaving as if they have arrived at a step above Christianity.
That's disturbing. My best friend attended a Messianic Syagogue before she married. She also still attended her Baptist church; she only stopped because there's not time now to do double churches like when she was single. Her father was Jewish and she was going to learn more to be able to share with him and maybe minister to him (he's not saved).
But I would be wanting to know if this attitude is coming from them (pride or something else) or if it's something they're getting at this synagogue. Could you make an appt to talk to the rabbi? If that might be awkward, maybe you could start with a rabbi at a different synagogue if there's one close enough.
Jews (Messianic or not) and Christians can and should have great fellowship one with another and your treatment from your daughter really just doesn't add up.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/9/2008 4:50:54 PM
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Lapidoth
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This may not apply here, but I have seen many radical positions of people
who begin going to church, but they never got saved. That can really cause
problems as a person gets really religious without a relationship with the Creator.
To be born again should begin at some point to develop the fruit of the Spirit.
If they haven't been saved, I would concentrate my prayers on salvation.
If they are saved, then the leading of the Holy Spirit may have to direct you in your prayers.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 11:17:01 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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My mom attended a a messianic synagogue when we lived in Colorado Springs. Nothing like you described ever happened. My mom did not eat pork while going there but that was just what my mom chose to do. I met a lot of the people she went to church with and they were awesome! The one lady that most stood out in my mind from her congregation was the old woman with the tattoo of the concentration camp she was in during WW2. She was an amazing person.
_____________________________
<-------- She really loves her daddy!
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 1:50:21 PM
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splost
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Hi,
I felt like I really needed to reply. I have been attending Messianic congregations for over 3 years. I still go to my assemblies of God church and love it.
There are many kinds of messianic congregations. Some legalistic and some not. Please don't assume that all messianic congregations are "culty". One of our speakers has a messianic club and he is a powerful man of God.
As far as pulling away from you, I don't like that. But I must say that some christians (non messianic ones) that I have experienced are really quick to pull the "we are not under the law" bandwagon on messianic christians.
Here is an example. I feel convicted by the Lord not to eat pork. I do not ever force my conviction on someone else. I have studied the verse about Peter and the sheet and if you read about a paragraph ahead of that, he is talking about people, not food. Where Jesus said it isn't what goes into the body that makes man unclean, he was referring to hand washing.
The point is , you are entitled to disagree. We can agree to disagree in love.
My family invited me over for easter dinner and my mom had pork as the main dish. I ate pretty much everything else, but she was disgusted at how "legalistic" I was being by not eating it. I am the one that felt judged!
You may want to prayerfuly explore the doctrine. Many early Christians (jew and gentile) did the feasts together in a Christ centered way. It frustrates me when I get shot down by people who pull the legalism card out without doing the research.
Sorry sweetheart. I am in no way judging you. I don't like the attitude of arrogance either. That is NOT from God at all and it can creep up in any denomination.
It's frustrating because I bring up "Jews for Jesus" or "Jewish evangelism" around certain family and I get this disapproving reaction.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 2:20:42 PM
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graftedintoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
This may not apply here, but I have seen many radical positions of people
who begin going to church, but they never got saved. That can really cause
problems as a person gets really religious without a relationship with the Creator.
To be born again should begin at some point to develop the fruit of the Spirit.
If they haven't been saved, I would concentrate my prayers on salvation.
If they are saved, then the leading of the Holy Spirit may have to direct you in your prayers.
I am going to try and address each comment in a separate post. I think it makes it easier to read! :-)
I am listening to the synagogue shabbat service right now, as I type. The Rabbi is teaching about how they should not be legalistic. He is teaching it right. I hear only good teaching.
I don't think it's the teaching there. I think it is my daughter and her husband.
Actually, her husband went there first a long time ago. He left her and their kids at the Baptist church they were going to. She finally went to the synagogue because she didn't like going to church without her husband.
The possibility of the husband not being really born again IS something my husband and I have often wondered about. I am so careful though about speaking that he is not. I cannot judge the condition of his heart. Only God knows that. I will definately be asking him to lead me as I pray. We love him as our own son.
I definately pray for the husband and our daughter. He is supposed to be the spiritual leader of the household and if he leads them into legalism, will they lose the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives? By this statement, I am not saying that is what the Messianics teach at all. Not at all. It just seems to be our son-in-laws interpretation of it all.
Thank you, Lapidoth for your comments. They were certainly helpful.
< Message edited by graftedintoo -- 5/10/2008 4:10:20 PM >
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 5:55:58 PM
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graftedintoo
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I hope no one thinks I am criticizing Messianics. Not so. I do not believe that is the cause of any of this. I have been reading a lot about it so I can learn what it's about. This seems to be all about our gentile family members themselves. Neither am I criticizing the Jewish people, saved or unsaved. Without them, we would not have the gospel. I am not anyone's judge.
I am just trying to understand why, physchologically and spiritually, our gentile family members are trying to convince other people that they are Jewish when they aren't. Our daughter's blog screams "I am Jewish" without a mention of the Messianics or Jesus.
Doesn't make any sense to me! Maybe I just need to not worry about it, huh? Prayer. Prayer. Prayer.
< Message edited by graftedintoo -- 5/10/2008 6:04:03 PM >
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 10:10:59 PM
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searcher1
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I have a friend who is a Messianic Rabbi. What you are discribing is very much out of the ordnary. But let me add, I've read some articles where certain Rabbi's are trying to coalesce the Christian faith in with the Old Jewish observences. It sounds like this is what your family has got involved in.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/10/2008 11:51:45 PM
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graftedintoo
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quote:
I have a friend who is a Messianic Rabbi. What you are discribing is very much out of the ordnary. But let me add, I've read some articles where certain Rabbi's are trying to coalesce the Christian faith in with the Old Jewish observences. It sounds like this is what your family has got involved in.
Hi searcher1! Thanks for answering.
I am not sure what you mean by the old Jewish observences. They do observe the Torah Service, reading from the Torah mostly in Hebrew, Davidic dance, observing all the feasts, Bat and Bar Mitzvahs, wearing of the prayer shawl and the yamika. They do all those observances but the teaching I have heard has not demanded they do these things nor do they teach that any of these things will bring you salvation. I guess they do it because the leaders are Jewish and want to express their Jewishness. I am guessing. I have not heard their services during feast days but am hoping they are Christ centered.
I listened today on the internet and they were talking about grace. A lot of the service in the beginning was in Hebrew without interpretation. A lot of the songs are sung in Hebrew. The one we visited in our own city always interpreted everything read in Hebrew to English. The sermon there today was Biblically accurate though. All about grace and preached against legalism. The focus was totally on what Jesus did on the cross and God's gift of salvation to us. It was a really good sermon.
I really don't think they are teaching them anything there that would explain their behavior toward us though. They can pretend they are Jewish if they want but treating their parents disrespectfully is wrong.
< Message edited by graftedintoo -- 5/11/2008 2:22:44 PM >
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/11/2008 2:12:23 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: graftedintoo
I hope no one thinks I am criticizing Messianics. Not so.
I, as a Messianic, who has attended Messianic services for approximately 22 years and has been Messianic (as an accepted member, requested after leaving the church) for over nine years, did not see you as criticizing Messianics at all. I immediately saw you as a loving person confused by disrespectful and (what I would call) belligerent behavior in an adult child. Please forgive and correct me if I am being too harsh regarding your daughter.
This is what I know: When some leave the church for Messianism, it is often because they may begin to realize some failure of the church they were in, which Messianism is fulfilling. They may see the superficiality of their old church's religious practices as compared to Messianism's living.
They may become very judgmental, as a result, toward all things "churchy." (I readily admit that even after these approximately 22 years, I remain very unenamored with the churches, both modern and historical.) As a result, they may become very judgmental toward individuals. In time, as Messianics mature, this usually is suspended, as they begin to understand life and as they are properly taught in their shuls or synagogues. Then, they begin to understand that while we are not all in agreement, we all have the same basic goals. What the Messianic, however, must learn, and learn as quickly as possible, is that people outside Messianism still love and serve the L-rd; they are loving Him differently, but they are LOVING Him. What Messianics also must learn as early as possible is that they are NOT perfect either, as much as some would like to think we are.
A third thing Messianics must remember is that many of them also served under the auspices of the churches, where they believed themselves to be doing the work of G-d. So why should we tell (or indicate to) those in the churches that they are not doing the work of G-d? When we do this, it is not necessarily the failure of the shul or synagogue, and it is not G-d's fault. THAT is a personal failure.
In my opinion, Messianics who do not recognize those true believers outside the shul or synagogue as true believers embarrass the rest of us Messianics. What a shame. What shall we do when we stand before the Judge and are told of our pettiness?
With regard to the children thinking they are "Jews," what a shame. Is this lack of proper teaching (in my opinion) by the synagogue? We are what we are. When G-d created Jews and Gentiles, He did not err! In my opinion (and I admit that I believe that this is more than opinion -- it is truth), NO GENTILE can go through any ritual and suddenly become Jewish. In my opinion, that is ludicrous. Both Jews and Gentiles, however, can love, serve, and worship the L-rd together in unity. Who cares who in the congregation is Jew or Gentile? The Scriptures clearly state that we should not separate ourselves in the congregation according to ethnicity. The only thing that should ever separate us is unrepented sin.
What I would suggest to you, sweet mother, is that you do your pest to put your daughter and her family firmly in G-d's hands and pray for them. There are many things that could be actually drawing your daughter away from you, and the synagogue may just be a cover for the real problem. I know you are hurting, and your husband is hurting, but in my opinion, that family needs your prayers. Be faithful in prayer and just keep loving them.
Bless you this Mothers Day. Reading your post, you appear to be a credit to motherhood.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/11/2008 2:22:24 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/11/2008 3:27:43 PM
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JStucki76
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There is a relatively new cult in existence called the Ephraimite Movement. They claim to be Messianic Jews, but in fact none of them are actually Jewish by descent. They believe that the church is the realization of the return of the 10 lost tribes, which is where the Ephraimite thing comes in. I don't know if that is what your daughter has gotten involved with or not, but what you have described sounds exactly like the sort of things they do and believe. They are very legalistic and somewhat isolationist (like most cults). The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) is aware of their existence and completely disavows any connection whatsoever.
One really obvious thing is this: A Messianic Jew, by definition, is a Jew who believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah. A Gentile, even one who observes orthodox Jewish practices and goes to a Messianic synogogue, is not a Messianic Jew. They are doing precisely what the 1st century Judaizers (otherwise known as the party of the circumcision) wanted: thinking they need to become Jewish in order to become Christians. This is what about 80% of Paul's letters deal with.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/11/2008 7:58:54 PM
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graftedintoo
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Hi JStucki76 and thank you for your comments.
Wow, that sounds rather scary, JStucki76. I really don't think these are like that though. Thanks for telling me about it though. One more thing to go research. :-) As I have posted, they preach salvation through Jesus and faith in Him only. I know our family knows salvation is only through faith in Jesus' shed Blood.
Thank you Covann_Meshuga!
quote:
With regard to the children thinking they are "Jews," what a shame. Is this lack of proper teaching (in my opinion) by the synagogue?
You gave me lots of information to think about and thank you. No, I don't think it is the synagogue. I really don't. I think it is the parents. The parents are acting as though they are too at times and they know full well they are not Jewish. Maybe it is as you said, a fascination with this new community and an immature expression of it right now. I am just going to change MY attitude and start trusting God to help the whole situation.
quote:
What I would suggest to you, sweet mother, is that you do your pest to put your daughter and her family firmly in G-d's hands and pray for them. There are many things that could be actually drawing your daughter away from you, and the synagogue may just be a cover for the real problem. I know you are hurting, and your husband is hurting, but in my opinion, that family needs your prayers. Be faithful in prayer and just keep loving them.
You said it all right there, Covann_Meshuga. I don't try to talk with her about it as I don't want to push her away. She and I talk mostly about business. God can do anything. If he changed me, he can change anyone! :-) Thank you for all the comments and encouragement.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/11/2008 8:35:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Perhaps, Graftedintoo, I should bring up three more issues. This may or may not have anything to do with your thoughts. I also hope and pray that you (and all others) take this in the spirit it is intended, and that spirit is one of quietness, of simply trying to pass on information, and of further explanation.
(1) When we who are Messianics leave the churches, we do so, as I mentioned, because the churches miserably failed each one of us in some way or many ways. As a result, we start studying Scripture, investigating what we ought to do, now that we are no longer just "new testament Christains"; we hungrily reach out for the whole Book, without dividing it.
Gentiles, then, embrace everything, from belief, through worship, through prayer, through diet, through clothing. We saturate ourselves in these things. Definitely, some Gentiles err (in my opinion) and think they have become Jews. Others, both Jew and Gentile, simply see it as doing what the Bible says to do. Simple as that.
While it looks, to those looking on, like they are "trying to be Jews," that is, for many of us, not the point; the point is obedience to G-d.
(2) Many such Jews and Gentiles, upon leaving the church, dig into study of both the Torah and the Hebrew language. When they have completed certain portions of these studies, often with other studies, they have a bat/bat mitzvah. In some shuls/synagogues, this mainly means that they have completed the studies; in some other shuls/synagogues, they believe that doing a bar/bat mitzvah means they are now Jews. I had a bat mitzvah some years ago, but for me, it was more of the idea of a graduation, meaning I had completed certain studies. I do not believe that a bar/bat mitzvah can, in reality, change any supposed status before the assembly or before my Maker.
(3) Some shuls/synagogues believe that Jews have one mode of salvation and Gentiles have another. This is often acted out in the places of worship by those who are Jews, or claim to be Jews, receiving favored treatment. Some shuls/synagogues even limit the number of Gentiles who can attend, and some ban Gentiles from certain activities. Personal opinion: what a shame.
_____________________________
Graftedintoo, indeed, you are grafted in, too, if you believe on the one and only Son of G-d, our Messiah. No one, No one, No one gets a special salvation based upon ethnicity or assumed ethnicity.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Does anyone have any gentile members that attend a ... - 5/12/2008 12:17:14 AM
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Anisavta
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Shalom!
You have gotten some good council.
And it sounds like the synagogue where your DD and SIL attend is not at fault here. Sounds like they are a Jewish space inviting both Jew and Gentile in with out reservation.
Here is how my synagogue runs. We are a Jewish space which means we do Jewish things. We use our siddur, have a Torah processional, read from the Torah scroll in Hebrew, have a kosher Oneg just like a non Messianic synagogue does. And we do this so Jewish people will feel comfortable being there, and if they are not believers, they will not be put off by thinking we are a Gentile church. When Gentiles attend (and there are quite a few) they also join in the prayers from the siddur, touch the Torah during the processional, can learn Hebrew and read from the Torah scroll, eat kosher wear a tallit and kippah ... But Gentiles are not required to have a Jewish home if they don't want to. They are not required to circumcise their baby boys, or eat kosher. It is clear that if you are a Jew you remain a Jew when believing in Messiah. And if you are a Gentile, you remain a Gentile.
I just recently discovered my Jewish heritage because it was a hidden thing in my mother's family which I find is a very common thing for people back in the late 1800 early 1900 period. When I found out it was like the missing piece of the puzzle was found and put in place. All my life I desired to be Jewish and always in the back of my mind wondered why I loved all things Jewish. Now I know why. But I was raised in a Christian family. Came out of a very orthodox holiness Christian church and ended up in a good church that taught balanced Bible based doctrine. But when I found I was Jewish the L~rd led me to the Messianic synagogue in our city and I knew I was home. It took my Gentile husband a year for the L~rd to release him from the church we were attending and into full time attendance at the shul. And He did it by me just praying and waiting. My husband made the decision alone by the L~rd showing him that Shabbat was indeed the day of rest.
The L~rd opened my eyes to many things the church as done for centuries upon centuries that began because the church fathers wanted to distance themselves from all things Jewish. These are documented facts not just sour grapes made up by disgruntled Jews. And to be honest I am still working through some anger issues of the Christian church in allowing these things to be kept in the dark. And I am finding that there are lots of Christians out there who sad to say have nothing good to say about or to us who are Jews believing in Messiah. They really want us to deny our Jewish heritage and say we are not Jews but Christians. Even here on threads I have had some really terrible things said to me because I am Jewish.
So I can understand how easy it would be to take these things and run with them in total unbalance.
But there are only 4 things required of Gentiles spoken of in Acts chapter 15. Everything else is up to conscience and the Holy Spirit's leading.
As far as Sabbath is concerned that has to be something the L~rd leads Gentiles in. And that is why there are so many Gentiles seeking out Messianic synagogues and congregations. They L~rd is showing many that the Festivals and Shabbat and even eating kosher is something He blesses his people with and it is a good thing.
Someone is influencing your DD and SIL. The best you can do is pray and wait. Not easy by any means but His truth will prevail.
Would your DD and SIL be willing to sit down with you, your husband and the rabbi of the synagogue they attend for dialog?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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