|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/24/2008 9:58:40 PM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
I'm currently reading a book, "God's Word To Women". In it the author, Kathryn Bushnell points out where God says, "a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they shall become one flesh." She calls this the first law of marriage.
She points out that the man is told to leave his family, but the woman is not. In this she sees evidence that God originally intended female kinship. Female kinship is not matriarchy, per se, but it's close. The man leaves his family and joins the woman's family. This is done, primarily to protect women. A woman's natural protectors is her family. Men, being physically stronger and not challenged with child-bearing and rearing do not run nearly as great of a risk of being abused as a woman does; so God directed that men should leave their families and be joined to the woman's family (one flesh).
In female kinship, the husband and wife are equal, but lineage and even property are traced through the wife and her family, not the man.
Of course, Bushnell offers other support for this assertion that I'm currently reviewing. But I'm just curious as to what you might think concerning this.
P.S. Please, let's not get into the divorce, remarriage stuff, that's for the other thread. Let's discuss "female-kinship"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/24/2008 10:41:16 PM
|
|
|
huckfinn327
Posts: 383
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
|
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Jesus exposited "they" in Gen. 2:24 to "TWAIN" .... no room for the in-laws. They TWO shall be ONE-Flesh.
Then God laid down a new LAW:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The kinship of man is family ... each new marriage introduces an entirely new family (in-laws removed)... so as God is a Tri-Unity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... so man is a tri-unity: father, mother, child in potentiality. So was Adam created a triunity or trinity: a nuclear-family.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Huckfinn
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/24/2008 10:55:40 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11744
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
A woman has to make the choice between being a wife or a daughter.
I think the idea of a man's becoming a part of his wife's family (rather than his own) and that a woman does not need to "leave and cleave" just as much as a man does is dangerous and irresponsible to the marriage.
If I were a man, I would not marry a woman who thought that way.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/24/2008 11:50:07 PM
|
|
|
carl54
Posts: 66
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline
|
It would be a great thing if a married couple maintained a healthy relationship with their extended families, but the principal thing is that in marriage they become a new family. The whole idea of "cleaving" is that it doesn't leave room for anyone else to fit in to the union as the husband and wife are. All other relationships are secondary to that of husband and wife.
_____________________________
Walk in the Sirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Gal 5:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/25/2008 12:42:51 AM
|
|
|
jaimestarcross
Posts: 768
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline
|
IMHO -
If God had meant female kinship in the beginning it would have been
that way. Eve would of had parents instead of being made from a rib taken
out of Adam.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/25/2008 1:21:52 PM
|
|
|
divorcingmyself
Posts: 20
Joined: 8/25/2008
Status: offline
|
Having directly observed this extra-Biblical concept in both pagan and Believing unions, it is clear that to take this interpretation of one scripture and suggest that there is some sort of hierarchy with the woman (directly or through her family) as the controlling interest is dangerous. When we were given the model for the power relationships in marriage that the husband is to model Christ in sacrificing for his wife as Christ did for the Church, it in no way indicates that Christ submitted himself to the Church. To take this female kinship tack in marriage would be suggesting that this in fact is the model (Christ submitting to the Church, so husband submits to the wife or her family) and, I am certain that you can see, is a heretical suggestion that is not supported by Scripture.
The first law of marriage is not about deciding who gets or abandons the "stuff" (as you suggest the author states), but would in fact be that there is a symbiotic relationship of the wife submitting to her husband's guidance and the husband sacrificing his self-centered inclinations to protect his wife. One without the other (as is seen frequently in both pagan and Christian marriages these days) is disastrous and a direct contribution to the high rate of marriage breakdown that we observe.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/25/2008 11:36:48 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4653
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
A woman's natural protectors is her family. Men, being physically stronger and not challenged with child-bearing and rearing do not run nearly as great of a risk of being abused as a woman does; so God directed that men should leave their families and be joined to the woman's family (one flesh).
I think this perspective is a twisted view of the Scriptures and of men in general. It implies that all men are brutes and wives must be protected from their husbands.
Marriage is a covenant between a husband and a wife--no extended family are included in that covenant.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 10:13:09 AM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Jesus exposited "they" in Gen. 2:24 to "TWAIN" .... no room for the in-laws. They TWO shall be ONE-Flesh.
Actually, Jesus quoted Gen. 2:24 from the Septuagint which uses the word "two" instead of "they" which is in the Hebrew. During the time of Christ there was a rabbinical debate going on as to whether God intended polygamy or only allowed polygamy. Rabbis that supported monogamy as the divine ideal quoted Gen. 2:24 from the Septuagint because it said the "two shall become one flesh" instead of "they shall become one flesh". So Jesus did support monogamy as the divine ideal, though God did allow polygamy.
The primary emphasis of Gen. 2:24 is the establishment of the marriage relationship between the man and woman. But it is significant that the man is told to leave his family, whereas the woman is not told to leave her family.
quote:
Then God laid down a new LAW:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Actually, this is not a law, but a curse.
The curse upon the man was a natural opposition to his ability to provide for his family through the ground being cursed. It made trouble and possible starvation a reality for not just men, but the whole family.
In like manner, it very well can be said then that "patriarchy" (man rule) is a curse not just upon women, but upon humanity. So, should we seek to enforse the curse, or restore the divine ideal of equality and mutual accountability?
quote:
The kinship of man is family ... each new marriage introduces an entirely new family (in-laws removed)... so as God is a Tri-Unity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... so man is a tri-unity: father, mother, child in potentiality. So was Adam created a triunity or trinity: a nuclear-family.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Huckfinn
Actually, Adam was created as a single individual, likely a hermaphrodite, a being with both male and female sexual organs and thus able to reproduce asexually. But then the Lord saw fit to take one of Adam's sides and make Eve, literally bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, kinda like cell meiosis.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
So both men and women are created in the image of God, and both were to rule together over the earth; but because of sin, the earth was cursed, men were cursed, women were cursed, all of creation was cursed! And the natural order was upset. Instead of humanity ruling over the earth; man was subjected to problems in the earth, and given to fighting to rule over eachother. But through Christ we can seek more of heaven on earth working towards Eden, doing what we can to overcome the curse through Christ, submitting ourselves to one another.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 10:27:43 AM
|
|
|
MisterTR
Posts: 65
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
|
I would be interested to know if Female Kinship was a common thinking among Christians over the past 2 thousand years. If not, I would need some persuasive arguments based on scripture to believe in such a viewpoint. I'm not seeing a persuasive argument for it so far in this thread, but to be fair, I suppose I would need to read the book that was mentioned.
_____________________________
"And we know that all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 10:38:50 AM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: divorcingmyself
Having directly observed this extra-Biblical concept in both pagan and Believing unions, it is clear that to take this interpretation of one scripture and suggest that there is some sort of hierarchy with the woman (directly or through her family) as the controlling interest is dangerous. When we were given the model for the power relationships in marriage that the husband is to model Christ in sacrificing for his wife as Christ did for the Church, it in no way indicates that Christ submitted himself to the Church. To take this female kinship tack in marriage would be suggesting that this in fact is the model (Christ submitting to the Church, so husband submits to the wife or her family) and, I am certain that you can see, is a heretical suggestion that is not supported by Scripture.
This opens the question as to whether patriarchy is "Descriptive" (the way things are) or "Prescriptive" (the way things should be)? The passages you're speaking of can be understood from either perspective, though I believe they are Descriptive and not Prescriptive. For example, scriptures concerning slavery instruct slaves to obey their masters, and Paul even speaks of himself as a bondslave of Christ; but does that mean that slavery is what God intends for mankind? I don't believe so; rather, slavery was descriptive of the culture of that day, but not Prescriptive. Slavery is an evil social system that is far from Eden - the divine ideal!
In like manner, the scriptures that speak from a patriarichal perspective are Descriptive of the way things were in that day. And scripture speaks both to that social system and from or through the social system of patriarchy. But is does not mean that Patriarchy is any better than Slavery.
quote:
The first law of marriage is not about deciding who gets or abandons the "stuff" (as you suggest the author states),
I didn't talk about "who gets or abandons the 'stuff'" much less did I suggest that the author states anything like that. You must have read that into what I wrote.
quote:
but would in fact be that there is a symbiotic relationship of the wife submitting to her husband's guidance and the husband sacrificing his self-centered inclinations to protect his wife. One without the other (as is seen frequently in both pagan and Christian marriages these days) is disastrous and a direct contribution to the high rate of marriage breakdown that we observe.
I believe the divine ideal is mutual submission to God and eachother; this is the goal. Anything less than that is disfunctional, defective and destructive. And that only comes through mutual respect and love. Neither patriarchy nor matriarchy promote such; on the other hand, mutual respect and love is the foundation of an egalitarian model of family.
I'll readily admit that Christianized Patriarchy is far better than either Pagan Matriarchy or Pagan Patriarchy; but an egalitarian family is the divine ideal as set for in Gen. 1, Eden, and in Heaven where there will be no male or female, certainly no subjugation, but perfect mutual respect, honor, and love.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 10:43:02 AM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Marriage is a covenant between a husband and a wife--no extended family are included in that covenant.
AGREED.
Actually, marriage in biblical times was considered a covenant between two families as well as between the man and woman. Marriage was even used when establishing treaties between nations with intermarriage between the royal families. Of course, this concept is foreign to American Individualism. Marriage is far more than just a covenant between two individuals, but includes the families whether one likes it or not.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 1:28:14 PM
|
|
|
ChelaW
Posts: 154
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
|
Although I see what the author is saying, IMHO it seems like a bit of a stretch and I just cannot agree with this.
While I don't have any Biblical back-up, I know from experience that you cannot have split loyalties, especially in marriage. You cannot be loyal to both your husband and your family, because they will surely butt heads eventually. And then what do you do? Whose side do you take?
Of course, I'm sure the author gives much more evidence to support her stance in the book. And if there is convincing scriptural evidence, I'll gladly change my opinion!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 1:36:02 PM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MisterTR
I would be interested to know if Female Kinship was a common thinking among Christians over the past 2 thousand years. If not, I would need some persuasive arguments based on scripture to believe in such a viewpoint. I'm not seeing a persuasive argument for it so far in this thread, but to be fair, I suppose I would need to read the book that was mentioned.
I have not read enough of the book to know of any evidence that she might present from either the early church or since then, but am enjoying the book thus far.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 1:39:51 PM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
A woman's natural protectors is her family. Men, being physically stronger and not challenged with child-bearing and rearing do not run nearly as great of a risk of being abused as a woman does; so God directed that men should leave their families and be joined to the woman's family (one flesh).
I think this perspective is a twisted view of the Scriptures and of men in general. It implies that all men are brutes and wives must be protected from their husbands.
I don't think it's a "twisted view of the Scriptures", but it does note the historical trend of men oppressing women in the vast majority of cultures. Of course, in Christianized cultures oppression of women is significantly lessened.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 2:43:42 PM
|
|
|
iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4461
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Is it just me, or is this thread getting more and more "New Agey" feeling?
seriously!
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 5:27:35 PM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
Marriage is far more than just a covenant between two individuals, but includes the families whether one likes it or not.
Not in our household. My marriage covenant includes (1) Christ and (2) my husband. That's it. There are no third or fourth parties involved.
Current American culture is significantly different than ancient near-eastern cultures through which the Scriptures were written. Is our American culture that values independance healthy, or the healthiest possible in this fallen world? I don't think so; rather, I believe personal maturity, and relational health is found in Interdependance. Independance is an attribute of adolesence; just like, Dependance is an attribute of childhood.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 5:28:43 PM
|
|
|
tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Is it just me, or is this thread getting more and more "New Agey" feeling?
What do you mean by "New Agey feeling"?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 5:49:05 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4653
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Is it just me, or is this thread getting more and more "New Agey" feeling?
seriously!
Yes!
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
|
|
|
|
|
RE: First Law of Marriage - Female Kinship - 10/27/2008 7:02:53 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
If I were a man, I would not marry a woman who thought that way.
Ditto! ...Except I'm a man. But I didn't marry a woman who thought this way, thankfully.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ 
