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George Washington a Christian ....

 
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George Washington a Christian .... - 4/23/2008 2:15:34 PM   
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It is up to you to make this a statement, question or exclamation mark.

George Washington was a Christian....why ?

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/23/2008 9:27:17 PM   
Julie1955


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I thought he was a Mason?
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 9:06:20 AM   
csl7037

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Julie1955

I thought he was a Mason?


Wow, pandora's box there! It hurts my head just to think about the circles that could take a thread in! Might be interesting to discuss but I'm not up to it.

I think he was a Deist. I'm not sure if he was a Christian or not - but we can't see into the hearts of people who are alive much less those who aren't! That's between him and God so it's a bit of an unanswerable question. And American history's not my strong suit anyway.

But I will say that my dd is in 3rd grade at a Christian school using ABeka for history. As a history major in college (medieval - grad school drop out though), it bothers me the lengths the textbook goes to in pointing out the godly qualities of these historical figures and what wonderful Christians they were. It's reaching sometimes, IMO. The current chapter she's on talks about how much Booker T Washington loved to read his Bible. But then it actually gave a quote from him to that effect (she's got the book with her at school or I'd find the quote and better examples). I thought, "finally" they're basing these stories of holy historical figures on something this time.

I think Colonial and Revolutionary times were just radically different in thought and expression. It was a unique period in history for sure. Theology was different in that time. Their thought processes were different, the world was different (and changing), and their writing styles were different. I think it's very very difficult to look back at the lives of the founding fathers or anyone alive at that time and make a judgement about what they believed or where they stood with God. If you have an agenda, you can probably find something written by the historical figure to support it. But without extensive research over years and years (a career) I don't think one can claim to understand the mindset of another era and even then only vaguely and at that there will still be disagreement among the scholars (although that's largely because they often still have an agenda to cloud their view as well).

It's not a question we can answer and probably not our place to answer.
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 10:51:47 AM   
relady

 

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I think that the definition of "Christian" has changed somewhat since Washington's time. I would probably consider him a deist, but I consider deists pretty much Christian. Based on today's fundamentalist definition of Christian and their ever lengthening list of necessary doctrinal beliefs to be a "true" Christian....no, he probably wasn't.

concerning agendas...I concur most heartily.
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 7:54:16 PM   
tvalladon

 

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Washington was an interesting person, unlike many of the politicians in that time he held his religious cards close to his chest. His choice not to make a known verbal or written comments as to his religious choices make it hard to establish for a fact what his religious choice was.

Perhaps we can look at what others who knew him well have to say about him.

The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie said of Mr. Washington:
quote:

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
(Reference: The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26)

The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie also said:
quote:

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."


Again, these comments were made by The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie rector of the church about Washington who had attended with his wife, in a letter to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs.

I would have to say that, with the limited amount of information available regarding Washington this may be one of the better looks into what his religious choice is, and this look would point in support of Washington being a Deist.

Of course, there is a possibility that there was a hidden agenda when these comments were made, as csl7037 clearly states.

If anyone finds additional information either supporting or disproving these statements please share :D.

--Terry Valladon.

< Message edited by tvalladon -- 4/24/2008 8:02:32 PM >
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 10:29:22 PM   
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Reading his speeches, what eye witness accounts have said about him, his wife's biography, & a biography about him I believe he was a Christian.

Too bad his wife burned all their letters to each other.

He was a Christian Mason whose group requirements didn't allow athiests or stupid diests as members. Their words...not mine.

He was seen praying at Valley Forge. He didn't allow the people to crown him king.

He didn't chop down a cherry tree either. Most of what I've read was early 90's so I'll have to go dig out the books.

He was homeschooled. He started a survey co. @ 15. His older brothers were sent across the Atlantic to school. His father was gone alot.

Communion is a ritual, not a doctrine. Not taking communion doesn't unsave someone nor is it proof of salvation.

He wasn't a very good speller, but then most spelled phonetically since Webster hadn't published his dictionary yet.

He was a tad busy with the Revolutionary War & being President to be too chummy with clergy.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 11:17:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tvalladon

Washington was an interesting person, unlike many of the politicians in that time he held his religious cards close to his chest. His choice not to make a known verbal or written comments as to his religious choices make it hard to establish for a fact what his religious choice was.

His actions spoke way louder than his words.

Perhaps we can look at what others who knew him well have to say about him.

The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie said of Mr. Washington:
quote:

"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
(Reference: The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26)

The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie also said:
quote:

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."


Rev. A violated Mathew 18 by what he did. He should have gone privately to GW first. Rebuking from the pulpit is a last measure of church discipline.

I don't observe sacrements. Communion is a ritual NOT a doctrinal issue. Someone's salvation should NEVER be decided by whether someone takes communion or not.

GW died the end of 1799. That is 34 years before the above was published.


...

I would have to say that, with the limited amount of information available regarding Washington this may be one of the better looks into what his religious choice is, and this look would point in support of Washington being a Deist.

I disagree....see above.

....

--Terry Valladon.


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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 11:23:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Julie1955

I thought he was a Mason?


Heard a guy on AFR's Today's Issues say GW was a member of a Christian Mason group. The groups bi-laws specifically did NOT allow athiests or stupid diests...their words, not mine.

Posted this info in the Mason thread. I'll have to look up the date. AFR archives the TI shows & they can be listened to.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 11:26:47 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037
...
I think he was a Deist. I'm not sure if he was a Christian or not - but we can't see into the hearts of people who are alive much less those who aren't! That's between him and God so it's a bit of an unanswerable question. ...

...

It's not a question we can answer and probably not our place to answer.


Maybe we should define deist.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/24/2008 11:53:51 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tvalladon

Washington was an interesting person, unlike many of the politicians in that time he held his religious cards close to his chest......--Terry Valladon.


Consider GW a statesman more than a politician. The FF lost a great deal standing up for their beliefs.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 12:10:59 AM   
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This is the text of George Washington's October 3, 1789 national Thanksgiving Proclamation; as printed in The Providence Gazette and Country Journal, on October 17, 1789.

The above speech doesn't mesh with this definition :

n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

[French déisme, from Latin deus, god.]

deist de'ist n.

The Bulletproof George Washington

quote:

This thrilling account of God’s care of George Washington during the French and Indian War is a story that once appeared in many history textbooks but has since disappeared. You’ll learn of Washington’s character, God’s miraculous protection of him in battle, and of Washington's open gratitude for God’s intervention on his behalf.
With numerous maps and illustrations, this updated edition is an encouraging story of God’s preservation of the Father of Our Country.
68 pages. Paperback.


Nelly Custis-Lewis seems to be a far better eye witness than Rev. A.

quote:

....Washington's religious habits....

I shall here insert a letter on this subject, written to me by a lady who lived twenty years in Washington's family and who was his adopted daughter, and the granddaughter of Mrs. Washington. The testimony it affords, and the hints it contains respecting the domestic habits of Washington, are interesting and valuable."
Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833.
Sir,
I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.
Truro [Episcopal] Parish is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother. It was a beautiful church, and had a large, respectable, and wealthy congregation, who were regular attendants.

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].
My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.
He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven]. Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
With sentiments of esteem,
I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis

George Washington's adopted daughter, having spent twenty years of her life in his presence, declared that one might as well question Washington's patriotism as question his Christianity. Certainly, no one questions his patriotism; so is it not rather ridiculous to question his Christianity? George Washington was a devout Episcopalian; and although as an Episcopalian he would not be classified as an outspoken and extrovert "evangelical" Founder as were Founding Fathers like Benjamin Rush, Roger Sherman, and Thomas McKean, nevertheless, being an Episcopalian makes George Washington no less of a Christian. Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.

For much more on George Washington and the evidences of his strong faith, examine the following sources:

George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Ferdinand Andrews, Publisher, 1838), Vol. XII, pp. 399-411.
George Washington, The Religious Opinions of Washington, E. C. M'Guire, editor (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1836).
William Johnson, George Washington The Christian (1917).
William Jackson Johnstone, How Washington Prayed (New York: The Abingdon Press, 1932).
The Messages and Papers of the Presidents, James D. Richardson, editor (Published by the Authority of Congress, 1899), Vol. I, pp. 51-57 (1789), 64 (1789), 213-224 (1796), etc.
George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States, Late Commander in Chief of the American Army, to the People of the United States, Preparatory to his Declination (Baltimore: George & Henry S. Keatinge, 1796), pp. 22-23.
George Washington, The Maxims of Washington (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1855).


Maybe having been in battle & lead men to kill others was one reason for his not publically taking communion.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 1:15:26 AM   
tvalladon

 

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I would like to make mention that prayer is a tool of many faiths.

A man can give a speech about any topic, that does not define ones beliefs nor does it limit ones beliefs. I can easily give a speech in support of dog fighting or any other topic at hand, and though I speak about it that does not demand that I support or endorse it.

It should be noted that Washington also refused prayer and being read his last rights on his death bed, that information comes from the writing of Washington’s personal secretary Tobias Lear who was with Washington when he died.

Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Diary six weeks after Washington's death:
"Feb. 1. Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the Government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article in their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice. Rush observes he never did say a word on the subject in any of his public papers except in his valedictory address to the governors of the States when he resigned his commission in the army, wherein he speaks of the benign influence of the Christian religion. I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in the system than he did." - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, vol. 1, p. 284.

There are many on both sides who sway one way or the other but the question in the long run is, how important is it in the grand scheme of things? I do not think anyone questions if he was a man of God, the questions seems to focus on if he was a man of Jesus.

--Terry

< Message edited by tvalladon -- 4/25/2008 1:44:39 AM >
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 12:06:02 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
He was a Christian Mason whose group requirements didn't allow athiests or stupid diests as members. Their words...not mine.



Isn't "Christian mason" an oxymoron?
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 12:33:34 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tvalladon

It should be noted that Washington also refused prayer and being read his last rights on his death bed, that information comes from the writing of Washington’s personal secretary Tobias Lear who was with Washington when he died.

I shall refuse last rites on my deathbed also. That doesn't invalidate my salvation. That is another ritual. People can say yes or no to them. They have NOTHING to do with salvation.

....

--Terry


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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 12:41:00 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
He was a Christian Mason whose group requirements didn't allow athiests or stupid diests as members. Their words...not mine.



Isn't "Christian mason" an oxymoron?


No, I've known a number of good solid Christians who were Masons.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 12:47:15 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
He was a Christian Mason whose group requirements didn't allow athiests or stupid diests as members. Their words...not mine.



Isn't "Christian mason" an oxymoron?


By today's standard probably.

Mason's could have had a different purpose then. Not exactly sure of the point of being a mason today. But there is a thread on that subject somewhere.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 8:23:35 PM   
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What do we know about Masons?

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 8:34:23 PM   
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AFR Thursday
February 14, 2008


... Dr. Peter Lillback, president of Providence Forum, and Ralf Augstroze, vice-president, will be in studio to discuss preserving American history.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/25/2008 8:50:54 PM   
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quiz

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/26/2008 8:55:53 AM   
mcp

 

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quote:

No, I've known a number of good solid Christians who were Masons.


I assume you speak of those whose artistry and trade includes both Christianry and Masonry.
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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/26/2008 12:48:18 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcp

quote:

No, I've known a number of good solid Christians who were Masons.


I assume you speak of those whose artistry and trade includes both Christianry and Masonry.


Christian bricklayers unite !

Is Christianry a word ?

Eagle Forum live is talking about GW this AM on the radio.

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RE: George Washington a Christian .... - 4/28/2008 6:40:20 AM   
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Ultimately, the relationship between God and George Washington is known only to God and perhaps to George Washington. With regard to whether George Washington was or was not a Christian, we can only either suppose that he was or suppose that he wasn’t. It’s supposition in either case. I think the evidence to suppose that he was a Christian is greater than the evidence to suppose that he wasn’t.

As to his disdain for rites, including communion and last rites, I know of plenty of supposed Christians that share that disdain, and plenty of other supposed Christians for whom rites are a vital part of their walk of faith. I don’t think either attitude marks someone as a believer or a non believer.

As far as his adoption of the general practice of “non-communicants”, namely of leaving the service before communion, I’ve seen differing accounts as to whether this was his life long practice, or whether he adopted this practice after the American revolution.

One little sidelight to the whole issue. I’m assuming that the “Episcopal” church that Rev. Abercrombie refers to and the “Church of England” are one and the same. Could it be that George Washington’s estrangement from the Church of England and his role in the formation of the breakaway “United States of America” are related?

More to the point in today’s world is George Washington’s attitude towards non Christians in the new country. It seems clear that Washington wanted non Christians to be able to fully participate in the civil and secular aspects of the new nation and its society without hindrance due to faith or lack of faith. It seems equally clear, at least to me, that Washington was not promoting an agenda that relegates faith to a purely personal and private role, as some of today’s secularists seem to want.

For people who claim both the Christian faith and the American nation as their own, this is far from a trivial matter, even today.
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