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God never changes - 5/23/2008 1:00:20 AM
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Godhead
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Read Numbers chapter 7
Some people struggle with the idea that the God of the Old Testament is different then the God of the New Testament. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing has changed about the God who created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) What has changed is His covenant with man. All the benefits that came about through the sacrifices in the Old Testament are now given through the sacrifice of God’s son. There was a peace offering in the Old covenant, and that involved such things as, “Two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs.” With the New covenant we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1) There was a sin offering in the Old covenant which was the sacrifice of a baby Goat. In the New Testament we have Son of God when He was of full age. (John 1:29) And if there are any other sacrifices that had to be made in the Old covenant, we have those same benefits now through the one sacrifice of God’s only begotten Son. Not only that but Jesus has himself passed through the veil of the flesh and into the heavens to intervene on our behalf, which in the Old covenant was the work of the high priest who went into the holy of holies once a year. (Hebrews chapter 8) So then, we do not have a better God then they had in the Old Testament, but a better covenant. How much greater value to God is the life of His own son above that of animals. (Matthew 6:26) Surely since His Son is of greater value to God, then the sacrifice has the greater outcome for us all. So we have the same God as the Jews had, but now we have a better Covenant, that encompasses both Jew and Gentile, male and female. Jesus has done away with all the rituals that were needed, and so has achieved for us all a fare greater hope and joy through Jesus then what God had done through Moses. If only every Jew could see that. God never changes, but His work to save us was a progressive work.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: God never changes - 5/28/2008 11:35:04 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 537
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Hello,
And I totally agree with you. God never changes. That is why I am a little surprised that you say tongues do not exist anymore. Since God never changes, so He doesn't change His gifts either. True, there is much abuse going arouond when it comes to the gift of tongues, especially what we are seeing in the Charismatic Movement. But that does not change the fact that there are people who truly have this gift.
Just to let you know, I am in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. If that makes you feel any better.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: God never changes - 5/28/2008 2:33:28 PM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
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From the beginning to the end.........God's (mind, will, & desire) will never change.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
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RE: God never changes - 5/28/2008 5:34:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
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Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
John
Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
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RE: God never changes - 5/29/2008 5:52:41 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello,
And I totally agree with you. God never changes. That is why I am a little surprised that you say tongues do not exist anymore. Since God never changes, so He doesn't change His gifts either. True, there is much abuse going arouond when it comes to the gift of tongues, especially what we are seeing in the Charismatic Movement. But that does not change the fact that there are people who truly have this gift.
Just to let you know, I am in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. If that makes you feel any better.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
If Adonai would not change some spiritual gifts(ie, tongues), then why would he change the spiritual blessings(ie, the sabbath).
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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yet some things have changed - 6/2/2008 2:03:11 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
From the beginning to the end.........God's (mind, will, & desire) will never change.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
sw: No, God does not change. He is just and merciful, loving and holy, full of grace and truth.
BUT, some things have changed.
The Law has changed.
The priesthood has changed.
The sacrifices of the old testament have ended.
The OLD testament is gone and the NEW has arrived.
(Hebrews)
etc.
What one must do to be saved has changed.
Swordsman
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RE: God never changes - 6/2/2008 2:48:05 PM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
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swordsman,
I would love to rebuttal every "claim" you just made but I will refrain. Why? Because we need to stick to the OP. I don't want to violate the TOS by going off the topic. The OP was "God never changes." Please stick to the OP.
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RE: God never changes - 6/2/2008 3:04:09 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
swordsman,
I would love to rebuttal every "claim" you just made but I will refrain. Why? Because we need to stick to the OP. I don't want to violate the TOS by going off the topic. The OP was "God never changes." Please stick to the OP.
sw: I went back to re-read the op to make sure that I had remembered correctly. And the op discusses things in much the same way I did, saying that God doesn't changed, but some things have changed. It specifically mentions the covenant and the sacrifices, etc.
So, my post was entirely in keeping with the thought of the thread.
Swordsman
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RE: God never changes - 6/2/2008 3:43:54 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The OLD testament is gone and the NEW has arrived.
swordsman, could you elaborate on this, please? Are you saying that the Old Testament is no longer profitable for the Christian?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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the old covenant has been taken out of the way - 6/2/2008 5:07:18 PM
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swordsman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The OLD testament is gone and the NEW has arrived.
swordsman, could you elaborate on this, please? Are you saying that the Old Testament is no longer profitable for the Christian?
sw: The OT is profitable in the way Paul described in II Tim.3:16,17 - for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. It is to be used as Paul used it in I Cor.10, for example. It is to be used as he instructed in Rom.15:4.
But the OT laws are not to be followed (Rom.7:1-7) including the ten commandments with "thou shalt not covet" mentioned specifically in that passage.
Why? That covenant was made with Israel and Israel alone and the Law of Moses including the ten commandments were the terms of that covenant for Israel. That covenant has been replaced with the NT of Christ. The old was nailed to the cross, taken out of the way, abolished (Eph.2; Col.2) and the testament or will of Jesus went into effect after His death (Heb.9:16,17).
Swordsman
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RE: the old covenant has been taken out of the way - 6/2/2008 6:40:19 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
But the OT laws are not to be followed (Rom.7:1-7) including the ten commandments with "thou shalt not covet" mentioned specifically in that passage.
OK, one more question - would you say that, even though the Christian is not required to follow the ten commandments as part of the old covenant, we are still required to live according to the commands found in the New Testament, many of which are very similar to the ten commandments?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: the old covenant has been taken out of the way - 6/2/2008 6:51:31 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 56
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
But the OT laws are not to be followed (Rom.7:1-7) including the ten commandments with "thou shalt not covet" mentioned specifically in that passage.
OK, one more question - would you say that, even though the Christian is not required to follow the ten commandments as part of the old covenant, we are still required to live according to the commands found in the New Testament, many of which are very similar to the ten commandments?
sw: Yes, 9 of the 10 commandments are stated in some form in the NT and Christians are to follow those instructions as well as the rest of the NT of Jesus.
The situation is similar to laws of countries. In the 13 colonies in the U.S., if a man in New York murdered a person, he had broken English law. Now, if a man in N.Y. murders a person, he breaks the laws of the U.S. stemming from our constitution, even though there is still a law in England against murder. Today, Americans are not under those laws, but have similar laws.
Swordsman
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RE: the old covenant has been taken out of the way - 6/2/2008 8:26:00 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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OK, good. Heh, my fears have been laid to rest. I've too often heard some Christians say something that sounds similar to what you said, but they then take it in a completely different direction and try and do away with any ultimate moral standard from God.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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Paul distinguishes between Law of Moses and Christ - 6/2/2008 9:56:48 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 56
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
OK, good. Heh, my fears have been laid to rest. I've too often heard some Christians say something that sounds similar to what you said, but they then take it in a completely different direction and try and do away with any ultimate moral standard from God.
sw: Yes, I've heard that error, too. :(
Paul made the distinction between being under the Law of Moses (as Jews had placed themselves, but Paul wasn't) and being under the Law of Christ, showing they were two different things. He wrote, "To the Jews, I became a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law." (I Cor.9:20,21).
Swordsman
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RE: Paul distinguishes between Law of Moses and Christ - 6/19/2008 10:47:12 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
All the benefits that came about through the sacrifices in the Old Testament are now given through the sacrifice of God’s son.
On the contrary, none of the sacrifices did anything to remove sin:
quote:
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
--Hebrews 10:1-4
Swordsman quote:
quote:
But the OT laws are not to be followed (Rom.7:1-7) including the ten commandments with "thou shalt not covet" mentioned specifically in that passage.
sw: No, God does not change. He is just and merciful, loving and holy, full of grace and truth.
BUT, some things have changed.
The Law has changed.
The priesthood has changed.
The sacrifices of the old testament have ended.
The OLD testament is gone and the NEW has arrived.
(Hebrews)
etc.
What one must do to be saved has changed.
This is flat out false:
quote:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
--Matthew 5:17-20
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (emphasis mine)
--Romans 3:27-31
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
--1 John 3:4-10
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can the love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
--1 John 4:20,21
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
--James 1:21-27
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
--Galatians 6:7-10
I would also include St. Peter's injunction, by the Holy Spirit, to "be holy for I am Holy".
The ceremonial aspects of the "Law" have been abolished, since they were "shadows" that pointed to and emanated from the substance of which they were all about: Jesus Christ. They were pictures that were intended to be seen as the testimony of that which God was going to accomplish; namely, become man, live, die, rise from the dead, ascend back to His Father in heaven, and return again to judge the living and the dead. This is the blessed and glorious Gospel of God (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
And, of course, they were looking forward in anticipation of the fulfillment of these "types", which were fulfilled in Christ. For example, Christ is both High Priest and sacrifice. His blood was offered in the Holy of Holies (the throne of God the Father) as a healing remedy for the sins of the people. Manna came down from heaven and water poured forth from the rock in the desert to sustain life to the wandering pilgrims in the desert. Christ is the true bread that came down from heaven; and His blood is true drink, for the life of the world.
However, it is an egregious error to say that the moral obligations to obey God, as delineated by the moral prescriptions of the Law and the Prophets, are now nullified by Christ. On the contrary, as the Lord says "not one jot or tittle shall pass til all is fulfilled" and "whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches other's to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven".
I recommend reading the Puritan writer Ezekial Hopkin's essay on the Law, in "Essays on Old Testament Interpretation" (ed. Walter Kaiser).
God has given warnings to those who will not obey God:
quote:
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds” 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
--Romans 2:5-16
However, God is merciful towards us. He gives us another Helper to prod us along to conform to His likeness. We are being renewed daily, if indeed we are "in Christ".
But let it never be said that God is not in the business of making us holy; by grace, refusing to regenerate us into adoption as sons and daughters of God to obey Him, but instead, sits by idly as we walk in the path of darkness and hell. May it never be!!
The "Law" could no more change than that God could change, because the "Law" embodies God's own unchanging character.
There is saying, in regard to human sin and folly, that "to err is human".
On the contrary, to "err" (i.e. sin) is to lower yourself from your high estate and calling in God. Sinning is lowering yourself, even below, that of the brute beasts.
To be human is to be Jesus Christ. Not only was He truly God; He alone is the only One who was ever truly human.
< Message edited by cognitivemagic -- 6/19/2008 10:54:49 PM >
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RE: Paul distinguishes between Law of Moses and Christ - 6/24/2008 11:24:31 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1120
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Ahh to follow the law or not to. Lets see if I can shed some light on this. And tie it into the OP at the same time!
God never changes. We know this. He is the same yesterday today and forever. However, what does change, is the amount of revelation of Himself that He has given to us, and as a result our understanding of Him. Think as it as a book you have never read before. The book is the same. The words do not change depending on when, how, or who reads it; they always remain the same. However, as we begin to read through the book, our understanding of it changes. When we first start, we do not know much, but by the end, we know the book. We can even go back, and look at the words we already have read, and gain a deeper understanding of it in light of the whole.
This is how God chose to deal with us. In the begining we knew only a little about Him. As time went on, we gained more understanding into who God is. With the atonement of Christ Jesus for our sins, and the giving of the Holy Spirit as our guide, we recieved the complete picture (atleast in as much as God will reveal to us this side of glory). We can even go back, look at the Word, and gain a deeper understanding of His nature and how He related to us. Yet all through out this, God did not change.
Now as to the Law. Before Christ Jesus, those who believed in the One TRUE God, had a incomplete picture of God. They only had part of whole. And as strange as it sounds, God used this period to show what He required of those who believe in Him, and that we are unable to do what is required. Paul tells us that through the Law we know sin. He also tells us that no one does good, not even one. We are inable to fully follow the Law because of our sin nature. If we did not have our sin nature, we would beable to follow the Law no problem. But alas thanks to Adam, we can not. With Christ Jesus, God showed us how we can meet His expectations. Believe in and follow Christ Jesus. If we do that, then as a natural byproduct we will follow the Law. Again, it is not that we follow the Law, for again, we can not. But if we have Christ Jesus in our hearts, we will want to follow the Law because it is the will of God.
As for the aspects of the Law, the sacrificial system was two fold. One it showed that we need to "sacrifice" something we have for forgiveness. Not that birds and animals could forgive our sins, but it was a object lesson and foreshadowing of Christ Jesus who gave up His life for us. The sacrificial system also showed that birds and animals could never cover our sins. Only a sinless, innocent human could do that. And the only way that could happen is if He was the very essence of God. That is Jesus was fully God and fully man. For a simple man can not lead a sinless life.
Also remember that the Law, aside from the sacrificial side, is summarized by the Ten Commandments. For most of what we know as the "Law" contain punishments for violating something contained in the Ten Commandments. But here is the neat thing. The two greatest commandments that Jesus gives us, are a summarization of the whole Ten! If we love our Lord God, we will not have any other gods, we will not have idols, we will not use His name in vain, and we will "respect" the days He as set aside as holy. If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we will not kill them, steal from them, lie about them, lust after something they have, and have respect for all our neighbors including our parents.
So again, when we follow Christ Jesus, and truly have Him in our heart, while we are not perfect, we will be following the Law. Not because it is a means of our salvation, for Christ Jesus did that, but because those who have Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior will WANT to follow the will of God, which is revealed to us through the Law and is summarized in two points. Love God, Love eachother.
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RE: God never changes - 6/25/2008 12:16:35 AM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 385
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
original: cognitivemagic
Christ is both High Priest and sacrifice. His blood was offered in the Holy of Holies (the throne of God the Father) as a healing remedy for the sins of the people. Manna came down from heaven and water poured forth from the rock in the desert to sustain life to the wandering pilgrims in the desert. Christ is the true bread that came down from heaven; and His blood is true drink, for the life of the world. However, it is an egregious error to say that the moral obligations to obey God, as delineated by the moral prescriptions of the Law and the Prophets, are now nullified by Christ. On the contrary, as the Lord says "not one jot or tittle shall pass til all is fulfilled" and "whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches other's to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven". However, God is merciful towards us. He gives us another Helper to prod us along to conform to His likeness. We are being renewed daily, if indeed we are "in Christ". But let it never be said that God is not in the business of making us holy; by grace, refusing to regenerate us into adoption as sons and daughters of God to obey Him, but instead, sits by idly as we walk in the path of darkness and hell. May it never be!! The "Law" could no more change than that God could change, because the "Law" embodies God's own unchanging character.
Amen 
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