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Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 9:08:17 PM
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Rufas2000
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This article is about two women in their mid 70s who petitioned the Chinese government to protest during the Olympics. The result: a sentence in a Chinese reeducation labor camp. The sentence will not be enforced if the ladies stay in their homes.
Article
This is why I cannot celebrate the rise of China, they are and almost always have been an evil empire over their long history (talking government, not victimized citizenry). And the Olympic committee that awarded the Olympics to this evil empire are at least guilty of incredible hubris, thinking they could change China who has acted this way for thousands of years. At worst they are guilty of incredible greed, putting money over basic accountability.
How can anyone celebrate China's rise or respect a committee that is willing to reward vsuch a brutal country with legitimacy in the form of an Olympics?
And people say America is evil. We're far from perfect but please ...
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 9:27:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Come now people competing for medals is a far greater purpose than people fighting for basic human rights and if it wasn't for Olympics these ladies wouldn't have had the opportunity to have the world take notice of them...
John
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 10:21:33 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Like it or not, they are becoming a superpower. Plus if you hate China so much try not to be anything made there and see what you come up with. I thought the Olympics was a place for athletes to get to get together and get along without their countries politics
If that were the case it wouldn't be taking place in China. The Olympic committee has done quite a bit of damage to the reputation of the Olympics through various boneheaded and greedy decisions. And China certainly won't be as responsible as America is as a superpower, warts and all.
If you want to enjoy the competition fine, thats partly why I gave this a separate thread. I'm not saying everyone should boycott it. I can't stand the idea that this thug regime receives some legitimacy from this. The Olympics is helping them become a superpower, that isn't good for anybody on this planet (aside from those in power in China or doing business with them).
I can't believe anyone finds the behavior described in this NY Times* article as acceptable or no big deal.
* I won't say the NY Times is unpatriotic but I will say that they are not hesitant to publish articles against America or for its enemies. In other words, they aren't America's way or the highway. I don't think the NY Times would publish this article out of ideological bias.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 8/21/2008 10:29:18 PM >
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 11:00:47 PM
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huangshan
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China has been implementing reforms extremely cautiously. They are getting better, but it is slow, and the government errs on the side of stability. They could absolutely be a much better government, but be realistic. The world changes slowly, or a lot of people die.
...
Not incredibly related, but there is an anecdote, I can't remember where from, that a headline states that China is a "Struggling Superpower". When this headline is showed in America, the readers say, "what? Struggling? You can't be serious!" and when it is shown in China, the readers say, "what? Superpower? You can't be serious!"
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 11:11:15 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
China has been implementing reforms extremely cautiously. They are getting better, but it is slow, and the government errs on the side of stability. They could absolutely be a much better government, but be realistic. The world changes slowly, or a lot of people die.
Hopefully what you say is true but its hard to believe after reading articles such as the one I linked. They've been this way for thousands of years. I'm not an expert but is there a period in Chinese history in which people could speak freely? Where they didn't bully their weaker neighbors? The whole system is based on the individual serving the greater good (in the form of the government). Isn't that a / the major reason Communism was able to take hold in the first place?
If China truly reformed to the point of not being a threat to their own citizens, of not commiting offenses against mankind like sentencing women in their mid 70s to reeducation labor camps (this coming from a society that venerates the aged) then I would rejoice in their emergence as a superpower. I just don't see the progress. A lot of people are dying and suffering anyway, ask the Tibetans.
Thanks for the reasoned response.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 11:12:10 PM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miss Giggles
Like it or not, they are becoming a superpower. Plus if you hate China so much try not to be anything made there and see what you come up with. I thought the Olympics was a place for athletes to get to get together and get along without their countries politics 
Even in their purest form, the Olympics were never about athletes trying to "get along." They were about athletes trying to defeat the others and become champions.
No matter how hard you try, you can't take politics out of the Olympics any more than you can take hot air out of Al Gore.
In 1936 Jesse Owens embarrassed the Nazis.
In 1968 two black American sprinters raised black gloved fists at the award ceremony in a show of racial power.
In 1972 eight muslims killed two Israeli team members and kidnapped nine others. The next day all nine were killed in a shootout between police and the muslims.
In 1976 32 nations walked out on the eve of the games when the Olympic committee refused to ban New Zealand. New Zealand's crime was that they played rugby against South Africa. The Taiwanese withdrew because host Canada wouldn't let them call themselves the Republic of China. Canada melted under pressure from Communist China.
In 1980 Jimmy Carter pressured the US olympic committee to withdraw because of host nation Russia's invasion of Afghanistan. Some other countries also withdrew.
In 1984 Russia and about a dozen nations under their thumb stayed home to gain a measure of revenge for 1980.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/21/2008 11:35:38 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
quote:
China has been implementing reforms extremely cautiously. They are getting better, but it is slow, and the government errs on the side of stability. They could absolutely be a much better government, but be realistic. The world changes slowly, or a lot of people die.
Hopefully what you say is true but its hard to believe after reading articles such as the one I linked. They've been this way for thousands of years. I'm not an expert but is there a period in Chinese history in which people could speak freely? Where they didn't bully their weaker neighbors? The whole system is based on the individual serving the greater good (in the form of the government). Isn't that a / the major reason Communism was able to take hold in the first place?
If China truly reformed to the point of not being a threat to their own citizens, of not committing offenses against mankind like sentencing women in their mid 70s to reeducation labor camps (this coming from a society that venerates the aged) then I would rejoice in their emergence as a superpower. I just don't see the progress. A lot of people are dying and suffering anyway, ask the Tibetans.
I'm not going to say that history is irrelevant, as it's obviously not, but China has seen enourmous amounts of changes in teh past three hundred years alone. It has gone through dynasty after dynasty of varying degrees of freedom or tyranny. They have been bullied and have bullied (western powers opium wars, Japan...), along with almost any other relevant country in the world. I think the magnitude of the problems brought about by the destruction of the eastern powers, and then Japan, and then by Mao are far more significant than any other histories that might be working against them. China, thirty years ago, started with essentially nothing but a massive population base, and what you see today is the result.
The Party was able to take hold for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the massive corruption and cruelty of the Kuomintang. The existence of a preexisting terrible regime is typically how a communist party sneaks in, I think. Mao also tempered Marx and Engels to fit the Chinese people, so I'm sure Chinese culture may have played into it a bit...
And I have to say, I'm a bit of a Sinophile, but China's position on Tibet and Taiwan are absurd. I'm beginning to think that they've just been telling their people that Tibet/Taiwan (and there's a few other regions as well) are obviously and always part of China that even if the government wanted to, they couldn't let them go, for fear of being seen as incredibly weak to the Chinese people who have been fed propaganda since they were born.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 2:00:07 AM
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iknownothing
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Personally, I don't watch the Olympics because it is a big snore. When I want to enjoy the Olympics, I rent the movie "Chariots of Fire". Back then, it was real amateurs competing.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 2:06:23 AM
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iknownothing
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By the way, if you would like to read a truthful history of the Chinese Communist Party, I would suggest that you read "Then Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party" (follow the link):
http://www.ninecommentaries.com/
It is fascinating.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 2:09:06 AM
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karlie
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I have watched the Olympics for the same reason I always do...to support and cheer on the USA athletes, and to enjoy the competition of a few favorite events. It has nothing to do with "celebrating China" to me.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 4:11:17 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
By the way, if you would like to read a truthful history of the Chinese Communist Party, I would suggest that you read "Then Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party" (follow the link):
http://www.ninecommentaries.com/
It is fascinating.
Having lived here for a year (I think yesterday or so was the anniversary), I think that the stuff in that link is something like 40% true, and engages in a lot of un-necessary hyperbole and ignores a lot of realities.
The Communist Party in China today is not communist in anything but name. If you consider the progress that China has had in the past 30 years and consider the Party's role in that progress, while it's still indelibly true that they have done enormous evil, they have also aided China immensely in recent years.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 6:36:45 AM
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Rufas2000
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Thanks for the insight huangshan. You appear to be a fair minded person.
I knew about Europe bullying China during those times. China would have been better off to be more open to cultural exchange while they were in a position of strength but that does not excuse the actions of the European countries.
The Communist party in China (which as you say is not really Communist) has made China stronger in several ways. That is why they are a superpower or close to it. But I'm not seeing the progress on human rights beyond token measures meant to improve China's standing in the world.
The one thing good about the Olympics is that we are learning more about China. That doesn't excuse the Olympic committee from putting their seal of approval on China's government by granting them a huge honor, hosting an Olympics. China should have had to make far more progress on this issue before being awarded the Olympic games. It should have been a reward for good behavior, not something that was said to be encouraging good behavior.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 8:48:09 AM
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stamper_ben
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If you want to see how much of a superpower China really is just watch what will happen to the whole world's economy (and the USA's in particular) if China's takes a tumble.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 8:53:58 AM
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mapachito13
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Question: Why do you never hear of a country boycotting the world championships that are held every year? Is it because the Olympic games are a higher profile venue?
If we are to boycott anything with regards to China's human rights record it should be on the economic front. Money fuels any countries political machine.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 8:57:36 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
If you want to see how much of a superpower China really is just watch what will happen to the whole world's economy (and the USA's in particular) if China's takes a tumble.
It's absolutely necessary to the current world's economy, but I don't think that qualifies it as a superpower. Invaluable as a part of the global economic machine, yes, superpower, no.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 8:58:40 AM
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stamper_ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
If you want to see how much of a superpower China really is just watch what will happen to the whole world's economy (and the USA's in particular) if China's takes a tumble.
It's absolutely necessary to the current world's economy, but I don't think that qualifies it as a superpower. Invaluable as a part of the global economic machine, yes, superpower, no.
Well, we can now add in the nukes they have and perhaps that will qualify them.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 9:13:46 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
If you want to see how much of a superpower China really is just watch what will happen to the whole world's economy (and the USA's in particular) if China's takes a tumble.
It's absolutely necessary to the current world's economy, but I don't think that qualifies it as a superpower. Invaluable as a part of the global economic machine, yes, superpower, no.
Well, we can now add in the nukes they have and perhaps that will qualify them.
Their military tech is in terrible shape and they have an enormous number of people living in abject poverty. They are dependent on manufacturing, and they have little in the way of a creative and skilled base of workers. They depend on Japan and America to give them stuff to build.
It's on its way to superpower status, but there are massive hurdles China has to face.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 9:40:34 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
The world changes slowly, or a lot of people die.
freedom is a VERY dangerous thing.
???
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 9:43:31 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iknownothing
Personally, I don't watch the Olympics because it is a big snore. When I want to enjoy the Olympics, I rent the movie "Chariots of Fire". Back then, it was real amateurs competing.
So, let's take "Chariots of Fire" and the track & field events.
If they aren't "real" amateurs...then who are they? professional sprinters? there's no such thing.....is there?
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 10:03:50 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Question: Why do you never hear of a country boycotting the world championships that are held every year? Is it because the Olympic games are a higher profile venue?
Exactly. The Olympics have a massive prestige factor and an illustrious history.
quote:
If we are to boycott anything with regards to China's human rights record it should be on the economic front. Money fuels any countries political machine.
True. For the record I never advocated boycotting anything, although I would be open to the idea of an economic boycott (open as in look into it, not do it whatever the cost). The athletes especially should not have to forsake their dreams because the IOC has no morals or ethics. If I was advocating a boycott the thread would be titled "Here is why you shouldn't watch the Olympics". 
What bothered me was all the gushing over the opening ceremony. Granted from what I heard and (what little I) saw it was wonderful, a truly epic achievement. But if Charles Manson wrote a beautiful song or incredible book I couldn't separate the actions of Manson (and from what I have witnessed his lack of repentance) from the quality of his work. I could acknowledge the quality of his work but I could never enjoy it or gush over it. I also think about what the people that performed went through in order to have it be that perfect. Remember the happiness and well being of the individual has never meant much, if anything, to them. Think about the poor girl who sang the song only to be told she wasn't pretty enough to perform it on stage.
This is not about the Chinese culture. It is a marvelous culture. It is only about the citizenry in so far as trying to secure their happiness and well being over the long term. The only thing the Chinese Communist Party wants by all indications is power and respect from other countries. They have the power, nothing can be done about that but the IOC and all the people fawning over how wonderful China is gave them the international respect before they did anything to earn it. So now they'll just go on their merry citizen abusing way. I count it as an opportunity lost.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 10:10:15 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
The world changes slowly, or a lot of people die.
freedom is a VERY dangerous thing.
???
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 12:11:26 PM
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gaylel1
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The only problem I have with China is that Christianity is not practiced there and it is a crime to pass out bibles, because just last week, bibles were taken away from people.
It is a crime to be a Christian there.
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 3:06:49 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
The only problem I have with China is that Christianity is not practiced there and it is a crime to pass out bibles, because just last week, bibles were taken away from people.
So sentencing 70 year old people to "reeducation" labor camps isn't a problem for you? Repressing Tibet isn't a problem for you? Not allowing certain Internet sites to be seen by their citizens isn't a problem for you?
I know you have a good heart (judging from your posts) so I'm thinking there is a misunderstanding here somewhere.
Did any of the "China isn't so bad" crowd even read the article I linked to. There are a whole slew of crimes against humanity in there (seizing property, sub human living conditions, broken government promises etc.), the stuff I described isn't all of it.
Edit: Crimes against humanity might be a bit of an overstatement. Call it China's government behaving very badly. I don't need exaggerated rhetoric to make my point.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 8/22/2008 3:45:22 PM >
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RE: Here is Why I Won't Watch The Olympics. - 8/22/2008 3:51:51 PM
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uncabeeil
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quote:
In 1936 Jesse Owens embarrassed the Nazis Not that I disagree about the Olympics always being at least somewhat political, but as far as I know Jesse Owens didn't go to Berlin to specifically embarrass the Nazis. He went to run his races. For him, his achievement was solely on the track. It was the press and government that put the "embarrass the evil Nazis" spin on it.
quote:
Question: Why do you never hear of a country boycotting the world championships that are held every year? Because the worlds are mainly about individuals and not teams. Nobody's counting medals at the worlds.
quote:
If they aren't "real" amateurs...then who are they? professional sprinters? there's no such thing.....is there? There most certainly is. Almost all of the top runners get paid to run. There's huge money in track over in Europe.
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