How much time and preparation would be needed- Demolition of WTC
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How much time and preparation would be needed- Demoliti... - 7/27/2007 10:56:40 PM
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RingsofSaturn
Posts: 119
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Despite the evidence and video....I'm struggling with this theory. WTC & isn't NEAR as big as the other two.
The Twin towers were enormous, so anyone wnat to speculate how much time and preparation it would take to set this up?
Also, is C-4 explosive in fire? Why didnt the impact blow the whole works up?
Could there be some NEW forms of explosives that would be better suited...
Lets try to make some sense of this difficult topic...: Planning and setting up the demolition of these two buildings.
GO! 
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/29/2007 4:32:39 PM
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RedStone
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A key quote from USA Today in commenting on the strange mass departure of ACE Elevator mechanics on the morning of 9/11:
“The departure of elevator mechanics from a disaster site is unusual. The industry takes pride in rescues. In the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, elevator mechanics worked closely with the firefighters making rescues.”
Robert Caporale, editor of Elevator World will say, “Nobody knows the insides of a high-rise like an elevator mechanic. They act as guides for firefighters, in addition to working on elevators.”
The Port Authority will also say that their departure was in conflict with the emergency plan. “There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own.” ( Quotes from USA Today, 12/19/2001 and USA Today, 9/4/2002)
Understand this-- This new company called "ACE Elevator" had replaced the elevator maintenance company that had worked at the WTC since the very beginning. This occurred about two years before 9/11.
(Given what I think I know about ACE Elevator, I'm surprised these people didn't have the nerve to go all the way with their cheekiness and give it a full-blown cartoonish name like "ACME Elevator Company".)
At the time of the collapses of these two towers, ACE had been "modernizing" the elevators for nine long months. The elevator shafts are precisely where one could locate most of the explosives for a demolition.
So...a mysterious "elevator company" skulking around the building cores for nine months leading up to the disaster. One more gigantic anomaly.
And that leads me back to those quotes from USA Today. This kind of candidness has long since (mysteriously?) disappeared from the media but...initially there was obviously some mystification over the mass departure of all the elevator mechanics.
The general instinct of all the other agents who were in the vicinity (police officers, firefighters, and other maintenance personnel) had been to converge on the scene. To roll up their sleeves and 'dig in'. These elevator mechanics left as a group.
Considering the fact that elevator mechanics had done just the opposite in the 1993 bombing of the WTC (with many of them heroically dropping themselves onto the roof from helicopters)...this is beyond odd.
Another ominous fact which has been conspicuously scrubbed from the mainstream media is that the weekend previous to 9/11 (which was a Tuesday), the top 60 floors of the south tower were shut down and powered down.
This was the first time that had ever happened in the entire history of these buildings. There was, again, supposedly some ‘retrofitting’ or modernizing going on. LINK
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/29/2007 5:00:33 PM
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Jimbo71111
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The same USA Today article also says:
In an interview, ACE Elevator President Ron Baamonde says the crewmembers left on their own because they were in danger. He says ACE followed the Trade Center's emergency plan. After a jet hit the north tower, 81 crewmembers reported to the fire command station in the south tower lobby. Two reported by radio.
"We did a head count and were ready to deploy for rescue. The second plane hit. It was chaotic, people screaming and yelling," Baamonde says. "You couldn't get out the front door because debris was falling. There was a mass exodus through the underground of the complex."
The elevator crew joined the underground exodus. The south tower fell about 56 minutes later. During that time, firefighters and Port Authority workers struggled to free the trapped passengers.
The elevator crew was in place until the 2nd plane hit, then they ran. Is this really a case of conspiracy or simply of some workmen running for their lives?
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/29/2007 5:12:17 PM
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RedStone
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Jimbo--
Certainly, there is nothing to be dogmatic about with any of this. You may have a valid point. And maybe you don't. As I said before-- the instinct of many agents on hand...was to converge. Police, firefighters, mechanics...these are typically sort of 'alpha male' types. All these mechs left in lock-step.
I am not quite satisfied with the Baamonde's explanation. Recall the rugged heroism of the 1993 mechanics. And keep in mind...I put this in the overall context of ACE taking over the maintenance and doing nine months of "modernizing" up to the very day of 9/11. And the shutdown/power-down the previous weekend, just two days prior to 9/11.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/29/2007 9:29:23 PM
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Backpacker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
Jimbo--
Certainly, there is nothing to be dogmatic about with any of this. You may have a valid point. And maybe you don't. As I said before-- the instinct of many agents on hand...was to converge. Police, firefighters, mechanics...these are typically sort of 'alpha male' types. All these mechs left in lock-step.
I am not quite satisfied with the Baamonde's explanation. Recall the rugged heroism of the 1993 mechanics. And keep in mind...I put this in the overall context of ACE taking over the maintenance and doing nine months of "modernizing" up to the very day of 9/11. And the shutdown/power-down the previous weekend, just two days prior to 9/11.
Red Stone,
911 Mysteries has an excellent section on how the explosives were placed.
911 Mysteries
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911: The Road to Tyranny
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 12:46:23 AM
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RedStone
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b-packer--
I'm sure there are some interesting ideas in that video. I've probably even watched it at some point.
I just always find it interesting (and am trying to illustrate that here) that no matter at which angle you approach the 9/11 disaster and no matter at what level...it's anomalies, anomalies, and more anomalies.
It's also important not to let a discussion of actual specifics regarding the placement of the explosives...to trump the overwhelming physics and engineering evidence. Buildings do not collapse at freefall speed in straight-down precision into a pile of rubble...apart from a controlled demolition scenario.
Some folks here were pointing out how there was damage to the corner of the WTC7 building (and they were using a very poor photo to do so). Regardless...even if there had been cataclysmic damage, the building would have done something far different than collapse straight down at freefall speed.
It might've 'teetered', then partially tilted over, then tumbled chaotically over on it's side. But remember...the building in the OKC bombing suffered genuinely 'cataclysmic' damage, with the entire core of the building scooped out, and it never collapsed or fell over.
Some folks may be overlooking the fact that virtually all modern steel-structured skyscrapers have five- and even ten-fold strength redundancy (as was apparently demonstrated in the OKC scenario).
Another critical fact-- Even the most powerful earthquakes have not been able to cause this classic "controlled demolition" type of collapse.
On this web page you can see various photos of earthquake-induced collapses. None of them have the slightest resemblance to the 'pile of rubble' senario seen on 9/11...nor at any other controlled demo anywhere in the world.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 8:06:56 AM
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draexo
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The free-fall speed of the collapse is clearly evidence for demolition. Especially building 7.
The problem I see is how to convince people?
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 2:19:41 PM
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RingsofSaturn
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Good stuff guys...keep it coming...
In my original post, which I did not spell check, I asked about C-4 explosives...
Why didn't they blow when the plane hit or when they caught fire? is this stuff like Dynamite, that it is unstable, or could it remain stable thru the impact and fires.
Also, I DO know that computer or radio controlled charges are suseptable to outside interferiance....cell phones, CB radios etc etc. If there was C-4 explosives in the WTCs for months, why didn't they blow from those interferences. Certainly, someone didn't arm them all on the morning of...
Also, why the explosions in the basements?
Keep up the good work guys,
ROS
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 3:15:26 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
Jimbo--
Certainly, there is nothing to be dogmatic about with any of this. You may have a valid point. And maybe you don't. As I said before-- the instinct of many agents on hand...was to converge. Police, firefighters, mechanics...these are typically sort of 'alpha male' types. All these mechs left in lock-step.
I am not quite satisfied with the Baamonde's explanation. Recall the rugged heroism of the 1993 mechanics. And keep in mind...I put this in the overall context of ACE taking over the maintenance and doing nine months of "modernizing" up to the very day of 9/11. And the shutdown/power-down the previous weekend, just two days prior to 9/11.
A. They did not leave in "lock step", they ran for their lives.
B. There was only one explosion in 1993. On 9/11 there were two planes crashing into the buildings. They ran after the second one.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 3:18:28 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jimbo71111
The same USA Today article also says:
Got a link to the USA Today article?
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 5:49:31 PM
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RingsofSaturn
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Backpacker
quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
Jimbo--
Certainly, there is nothing to be dogmatic about with any of this. You may have a valid point. And maybe you don't. As I said before-- the instinct of many agents on hand...was to converge. Police, firefighters, mechanics...these are typically sort of 'alpha male' types. All these mechs left in lock-step.
I am not quite satisfied with the Baamonde's explanation. Recall the rugged heroism of the 1993 mechanics. And keep in mind...I put this in the overall context of ACE taking over the maintenance and doing nine months of "modernizing" up to the very day of 9/11. And the shutdown/power-down the previous weekend, just two days prior to 9/11.
Red Stone,
911 Mysteries has an excellent section on how the explosives were placed.
911 Mysteries
Great video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A must watch, very well done !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 6:04:19 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jimbo71111
quote:
Got a link to the USA Today article?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm
"O'Neill radioed John Menville, an ACE Elevator supervisor trained in rescues, and both tried to get back into the building. The supervisors had special ID badgeds with red stripes that allowed them behind police lines.
......... "As Menville approached, the south tower collapsed."
You quote-mined to misconstrue the nature of the article. The main problems were design, communication problems and failure of systems. Remember that 99% of the occupants in the WTC escaped.
_____________________________
Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/30/2007 11:53:19 PM
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RedStone
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I have quote-mined? Please, say it isn't so. The fact remains...USA Today noted the unusualness of the mass departure...the Port Authority had unkind words about the departure...and USA Today quoted Mr. Caporale, editor of "Elevator World" in such a way as to, again, suggest this was somewhat unexpected behavior-- the elevator mechs play a huge role in a situation like this.
And again, the suggestion that everybody ran screaming from the building is completely false. Hundreds stayed...and died. (They stayed because they had no inkling of the buildings' impending collapses.)
As I said, firefighters, police officers, and the mechs have, in the past, had an instinct to rush in where others might not. Alpha-male types. Plus...these mechs are essential rescue personnel in this kind of situation.
If they boldly entered the first burning building...why would they not enter the second burning building? It doesn't quite add up, to me.
Hundreds of people stayed at the site after both buildings were hit. Not one of them was from ACE Elevator. Typically, the police and fire would have a heavy reliance on these guys as to the viability and safety of any given elevator and the overall system.
And the description of John Menville's behavior raises more questions than answers-- Why wasn't he already in the building? At the time of the first collapse, the building had been hit by an airplane 45 minutes previous...and the first building had been hit over an hour previous.
Hundreds of 'alpha-male' rescue personnel were crawling all over these buildings at this time. And Menville is depicted as standing out and away from the building, the lone remaining ACE Elevator mech, talking on a radio?? "Oh...you guys need me in there...or something? Uh yeah...lemme see what I can do." I don't know about that.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 9:49:51 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedStone
I have quote-mined? Please, say it isn't so. The fact remains...USA Today noted the unusualness of the mass departure...the Port Authority had unkind words about the departure...and USA Today quoted Mr. Caporale, editor of "Elevator World" in such a way as to, again, suggest this was somewhat unexpected behavior-- the elevator mechs play a huge role in a situation like this.
And again, the suggestion that everybody ran screaming from the building is completely false. Hundreds stayed...and died. (They stayed because they had no inkling of the buildings' impending collapses.)
As I said, firefighters, police officers, and the mechs have, in the past, had an instinct to rush in where others might not. Alpha-male types. Plus...these mechs are essential rescue personnel in this kind of situation.
If they boldly entered the first burning building...why would they not enter the second burning building? It doesn't quite add up, to me.
Hundreds of people stayed at the site after both buildings were hit. Not one of them was from ACE Elevator. Typically, the police and fire would have a heavy reliance on these guys as to the viability and safety of any given elevator and the overall system.
And the description of John Menville's behavior raises more questions than answers-- Why wasn't he already in the building? At the time of the first collapse, the building had been hit by an airplane 45 minutes previous...and the first building had been hit over an hour previous.
Hundreds of 'alpha-male' rescue personnel were crawling all over these buildings at this time. And Menville is depicted as standing out and away from the building, the lone remaining ACE Elevator mech, talking on a radio?? "Oh...you guys need me in there...or something? Uh yeah...lemme see what I can do." I don't know about that.
Port Authority's criticism is meaningless since all the agencies have engaged in lots of finger-pointing. Let's assume the elevator company was negligent. That proves only negligence.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 11:28:46 AM
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stamper_ben
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Finally, we're getting to the "naming of names"...
So it is now alleged that ACE Elevator placed the charges and then were evacuated away from the site in the "cover-up"....
This is better than the last Clancy novel I read.
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 11:46:49 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Finally, we're getting to the "naming of names"...
So it is now alleged that ACE Elevator placed the charges and then were evacuated away from the site in the "cover-up"....
This is better than the last Clancy novel I read.
Now, ben, none of the information says anything of the sort. Reads more like Mission Improbable.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 11:54:42 AM
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stamper_ben
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Since when does an allegation have to be substantiated by facts?
I just read a WEB Griffin book this weekend. In it he mentioned the ILWU's Harry Bridges. Where Harry fit into the plot I don't have any clue. Just name dropping I guess...
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 11:57:47 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Since when does an allegation have to be substantiated by facts?
WWIT?
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 5:27:23 PM
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Backpacker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
This is better than the last Clancy novel I read.
Funny you should say that! Tom Clancy has stated that if he were to write a novel based on the official government story of 911 and take the manuscript to the publisher the publisher would laugh him straight out of the room because the story would be too unbelievable.
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 7:00:07 PM
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draexo
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I can not find a link, but I am sure someone has one. Has not BYU Prof. Steven Jones proven Thermate was used at the WTC???
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TRUTH
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 7/31/2007 9:29:42 PM
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Backpacker
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Guys,
Here is the new 'Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth' website that is an excellent resource.
Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 8/1/2007 11:17:39 PM
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RingsofSaturn
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Great site !!!!!!!
A Must see !!!!!!!!!
http://www.ae911truth.org/
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RE: How much time and preparation would be needed- Demo... - 8/24/2007 10:00:50 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brooklynsblessed1
Listen ringsofsaturn..things are still happening down there..things just happen, doesn't always have to be Bush-Cheney-Guliani & the CIA behind it....
quote:
Scaffolding Collapses at WTC Building
Aug 23 02:45 PM US/Eastern
By AMY WESTFELDT
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - A section of scaffolding surrounding a condemned skyscraper being dismantled at the World Trade Center site collapsed Thursday, injuring two firefighters and some construction workers, officials said. Two other firefighters died in a blaze at the same building last week.
Demolition of the former Deutsche Bank skyscraper had been suspended after Saturday's blaze, but workers on Thursday were still busy removing toxic debris from its remaining 26 stories.
The scaffolding collapsed along the side facing ground zero shortly before 2 p.m., fire department spokesman Frank Gribbon said. Two firefighters and some construction workers were injured; the extent of their injuries was not known, the department said. Further details weren't immediately available.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R6TCH81&show_article=1
Unfortunately my city lost two of our BRAVEST ! 
Obviously a controlled demolition
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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