If God will not make someone "choose" to do right, then why do we pray?
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If God will not make someone "choose" to do r... - 11/15/2008 1:17:07 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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This is a question that I cannot seem to shake nor can I find an answer to. And I'm hoping that there is someone that can help me out with this.
Just some examples:
If a person has been saved, but they have turned their backs on God, and have turned to drugs or alcohol to try to bury the pain that they have faced, and there are those people praying for this person, but nothing seems to be happening.....and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right." Then why do we pray?
If a man (who is a Christian) has divorced his wife and not because of adultery but because of other reasons, and that woman continues to pray for reconcilation between them, but nothing seems to be happening, and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right or choose Him." Then why do we pray?
I just don't get it...to have someone say that, almost makes a person feel like, that maybe they shouldn't even pray.
I am a person who loves our Lord, serves our Lord and prays daily, talks to Him daily, and always strives to live according to His Will. But to hear responses like the ones that I have listed above, almost makes a person question, then why do we pray?
I'm struggling with this, because I have heard it, and I have dealt with situations like the 2 above. I have also prayed, and seen God work and perfom miracles, I have seen prayers answered......and then on the other hand, I have prayed, and seen things get worse instead of better, and only to be told, what I have listed above.
Has anyone else ever thought about this? If He wont make someone choose Him or make them choose to do right, then why are we praying? Thats doesnt make sense to me for some reason.
Thank you,
Abby Grace
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 2:27:51 PM
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galadriel2
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/5/2008
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He does make people choose to do right: 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and do, according to His good pleasure.' (Phil. ch. 2)
God bless,
Galadriel
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 2:35:03 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1801
Joined: 1/17/2008
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When I was a child, I asked my parents for many things. Sometimes they gave me what I asked for. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they said: It costs too much. You'll have to wait a bit.
Sometimes, when I wanted more of a good thing (chocolates); they said: No, that's enough for now.
When they denied me what I wanted, or rationed what I had; it wasn't because they were evil. On the contrary, they loved me and cared for me. They did what was best for me. Too much chocolates would have made me sick.
God loves us. And He knows what's best for us at any given point in time in our lives. We may well want a broken relationship to heal and for the people to "live happily ever after". And sure, He can do that if He wanted to. But then where does it leave the people involved? Aren't they now robots just following His will?
So instead, God allows a situation to happen. He allows it to develop. Sometimes He brings opportunities our way. Opportunities for reconciliation. Opportunities for us to change our way of thinking and our behaviour. Opportunities for us to change for the better.
It's up to us to take these opportunities or not. Hence: Free Will.
Now this shouldn't stop us from praying. We still ask. We hope and we pray. But most of all we trust. We trust that His response, whatever it is, will be for our own good.
It is by trusting that He has our best interest at heart; only then, can we really say: Thy will be done - and mean it.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 2:42:46 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
When I was a child, I asked my parents for many things. Sometimes they gave me what I asked for. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they said: It costs too much. You'll have to wait a bit.
Sometimes, when I wanted more of a good thing (chocolates); they said: No, that's enough for now.
When they denied me what I wanted, or rationed what I had; it wasn't because they were evil. On the contrary, they loved me and cared for me. They did what was best for me. Too much chocolates would have made me sick.
God loves us. And He knows what's best for us at any given point in time in our lives. We may well want a broken relationship to heal and for the people to "live happily ever after". And sure, He can do that if He wanted to. But then where does it leave the people involved? Aren't they now robots just following His will?
So instead, God allows a situation to happen. He allows it to develop. Sometimes He brings opportunities our way. Opportunities for reconciliation. Opportunities for us to change our way of thinking and our behaviour. Opportunities for us to change for the better.
It's up to us to take these opportunities or not. Hence: Free Will.
Now this shouldn't stop us from praying. We still ask. We hope and we pray. But most of all we trust. We trust that His response, whatever it is, will be for our own good.
It is by trusting that He has our best interest at heart; only then, can we really say: Thy will be done - and mean it.
Ok, this leads me to another interesting question, that I have always had, with no real answer. When we pray, "Thy Will Be Done." Isn't God's Will stated in the Bible. The Bible is God's Will, or am I wrong?
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 2:52:53 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1801
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Praying: Thy will be done; is the most difficult prayer ever.
Because we must mean it. If we say: Thy will be done as long as it is what I want .... Well, what kind of prayer is that? What does it say about our Faith?
Sure, His will be done as stated in the Bible. But when we pray and ask for something. And as I said earlier on - there's nothing wrong with that. We should say something like: Dear God, I pray for X, he is really unwell and in hospital. I pray that he gets better. And I trust you that you'll do what's best for him. Thy will be done.
That's what we mean in this example by: Thy will be done.
It is praying, yet at the same time have an unshakable belief that whatever happens will be for the best and will be God's will.
A very difficult prayer indeed requiring our utmost in Faith.
Jesus prayed: Thy will be done, when in the Garden of the Mount of Olives, just before His arrest. He wanted the whole event of the Crucifixion to pass Him by, yet He trusted God, and said: Thy will be done.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 3:03:01 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
This is a question that I cannot seem to shake nor can I find an answer to. And I'm hoping that there is someone that can help me out with this.
Just some examples:
If a person has been saved, but they have turned their backs on God, and have turned to drugs or alcohol to try to bury the pain that they have faced, and there are those people praying for this person, but nothing seems to be happening.....and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right." Then why do we pray?
God will convict the person, send people around the person to talk to them about what they are doing, or whatever else it takes. However the person has to be willing to listen, repent, etc. God will not override the person's will. But He will bring the person as low as he/she needs to go to wake up. As far as why pray. We are told to pray in Scripture. We pray because we are Christians and we have faith that God will do His will. We pray because we love the person and don't want to see him/her destroy his/her life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
If a man (who is a Christian) has divorced his wife and not because of adultery but because of other reasons, and that woman continues to pray for reconcilation between them, but nothing seems to be happening, and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right or choose Him." Then why do we pray?
See above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I just don't get it...to have someone say that, almost makes a person feel like, that maybe they shouldn't even pray.
I am a person who loves our Lord, serves our Lord and prays daily, talks to Him daily, and always strives to live according to His Will. But to hear responses like the ones that I have listed above, almost makes a person question, then why do we pray?
I'm struggling with this, because I have heard it, and I have dealt with situations like the 2 above. I have also prayed, and seen God work and perfom miracles, I have seen prayers answered......and then on the other hand, I have prayed, and seen things get worse instead of better, and only to be told, what I have listed above.
Has anyone else ever thought about this? If He wont make someone choose Him or make them choose to do right, then why are we praying? Thats doesnt make sense to me for some reason.
Thank you,
Abby Grace
It is a true statement to make. We pray however because we trust that God will do His Will. That He will do what is best. I'm not sure how else to answer your questions. Again God doesn't make anyone do anything they don't want to do. If He was to do that He would go against His own nature. God wants us to love Him because of real change. Real repentance and faith in Him.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 3:10:22 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Praying: Thy will be done; is the most difficult prayer ever.
Because we must mean it. If we say: Thy will be done as long as it is what I want .... Well, what kind of prayer is that? What does it say about our Faith?
Sure, His will be done as stated in the Bible. But when we pray and ask for something. And as I said earlier on - there's nothing wrong with that. We should say something like: Dear God, I pray for X, he is really unwell and in hospital. I pray that he gets better. And I trust you that you'll do what's best for him. Thy will be done.
That's what we mean in this example by: Thy will be done.
It is praying, yet at the same time have an unshakable belief that whatever happens will be for the best and will be God's will.
A very difficult prayer indeed requiring our utmost in Faith.
Jesus prayed: Thy will be done, when in the Garden of the Mount of Olives, just before His arrest. He wanted the whole event of the Crucifixion to pass Him by, yet He trusted God, and said: Thy will be done.
Thank you. I understand what your saying. But are my questions stupid? Does it make sense to you what I'm asking and sometimes its hard to get around. I know God doesnt want to see anyone on drugs, and to pray for that person, and see no change, and then to have someone say, well God wont make them......I just dont get it. Should our faith in God, not be enough for Him to make that person do right? What does it say in the Bible, cant remember what verse, but, whatever we ask for according to His Will, it shall be done, and we shouldnt have any doubt, when in asking. How does one explain that?
If we are asking for Him to deliver this person from drugs, and it isnt done, then do we say, well, it wasnt His Will?
Do you see where this can be a little confusing? And Im trying with all my heart to understand this. I have prayed about it, I have talked to God about it, and I just dont seem to get a direct answer on this, from anyone.
So, if we pray, "Thy Will Be Done." And this person stays on drugs, doesnt repent and call out to God, do we actually tell someone, well, I prayed God's Will be done, and it was? It just doesnt make sense to me.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 3:12:29 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
This is a question that I cannot seem to shake nor can I find an answer to. And I'm hoping that there is someone that can help me out with this.
Just some examples:
If a person has been saved, but they have turned their backs on God, and have turned to drugs or alcohol to try to bury the pain that they have faced, and there are those people praying for this person, but nothing seems to be happening.....and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right." Then why do we pray?
God will convict the person, send people around the person to talk to them about what they are doing, or whatever else it takes. However the person has to be willing to listen, repent, etc. God will not override the person's will. But He will bring the person as low as he/she needs to go to wake up. As far as why pray. We are told to pray in Scripture. We pray because we are Christians and we have faith that God will do His will. We pray because we love the person and don't want to see him/her destroy his/her life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
If a man (who is a Christian) has divorced his wife and not because of adultery but because of other reasons, and that woman continues to pray for reconcilation between them, but nothing seems to be happening, and then you hear someone say, "Well, we have free will and God will not make that person choose to do right or choose Him." Then why do we pray?
See above.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I just don't get it...to have someone say that, almost makes a person feel like, that maybe they shouldn't even pray.
I am a person who loves our Lord, serves our Lord and prays daily, talks to Him daily, and always strives to live according to His Will. But to hear responses like the ones that I have listed above, almost makes a person question, then why do we pray?
I'm struggling with this, because I have heard it, and I have dealt with situations like the 2 above. I have also prayed, and seen God work and perfom miracles, I have seen prayers answered......and then on the other hand, I have prayed, and seen things get worse instead of better, and only to be told, what I have listed above.
Has anyone else ever thought about this? If He wont make someone choose Him or make them choose to do right, then why are we praying? Thats doesnt make sense to me for some reason.
Thank you,
Abby Grace
It is a true statement to make. We pray however because we trust that God will do His Will. That He will do what is best. I'm not sure how else to answer your questions. Again God doesn't make anyone do anything they don't want to do. If He was to do that He would go against His own nature. God wants us to love Him because of real change. Real repentance and faith in Him.
Thank you, will you read my post, #7, and see what you think. I'm trying to understand, I really am.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 3:31:33 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1801
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Abby,
Your questions are not stupid. You are asking fair and justifiable questions.
The reality is: we do not know God's will. We are not meant to know. We are meant to trust Him.
I realise that this is a difficult concept to understand or to come to terms with. Believe me, I have struggled with it for ages. But the fact is we are meant to believe and to trust. Jesus said as much many times. "Happy are those who believe but have not seen me."
Imagine having a friend and you ask him/her for something. They say they'll do it when the time is right. Just trust them.
You wait. Nothing happens. You ask again. Nothing happens. You ask once more. And so on and so on.
We really don't know why God allows sick people to die and not get better. Despite our prayers. Or why He does not get someone off drugs. Despite our prayers. Or why so many other bad things happen in the world and He allows them to happen. Despite our prayers.
The balance between "His Will" and our "Free Will" has been argued and debated by many over the years and will continue to be debated for ever. We'll never get an answer that will suit us humans.
And that's because we are not meant to get an answer. We are meant to believe that He knows best. He allows things to happen to fulfill His purpose.
If we insisted on solid answers with irrefutable proof and evidence to every question we have; then where would that leave Faith?
Faith is to believe and to trust without having the answers.
Sorry I can't help you with answers; but your questions are still valid all the same.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 4:07:02 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Abby,
Your questions are not stupid. You are asking fair and justifiable questions.
The reality is: we do not know God's will. We are not meant to know. We are meant to trust Him.
I realise that this is a difficult concept to understand or to come to terms with. Believe me, I have struggled with it for ages. But the fact is we are meant to believe and to trust. Jesus said as much many times. "Happy are those who believe but have not seen me."
Imagine having a friend and you ask him/her for something. They say they'll do it when the time is right. Just trust them.
You wait. Nothing happens. You ask again. Nothing happens. You ask once more. And so on and so on.
We really don't know why God allows sick people to die and not get better. Despite our prayers. Or why He does not get someone off drugs. Despite our prayers. Or why so many other bad things happen in the world and He allows them to happen. Despite our prayers.
The balance between "His Will" and our "Free Will" has been argued and debated by many over the years and will continue to be debated for ever. We'll never get an answer that will suit us humans.
And that's because we are not meant to get an answer. We are meant to believe that He knows best. He allows things to happen to fulfill His purpose.
If we insisted on solid answers with irrefutable proof and evidence to every question we have; then where would that leave Faith?
Faith is to believe and to trust without having the answers.
Sorry I can't help you with answers; but your questions are still valid all the same.
I know and I do thank you. It's just a question that I often think about, and wish I had the answer too. I have faith, I believe and I trust our Lord, He knows this. But sometimes, I do sit and wonder about things. When we speak about God's Will....I know the Bible, His Word...Is His Will, and if you go to it, and read about marriage and divorce, He is clearly against divorce, so if I pray, Thy Will Be Done, then I begin to question myself, "Lord do I have enough faith to trust that you will put this marriage back together, because according to your Will....it will be done." See, where I'm coming from?
But I do know this also, He knows my heart and He knows the love that I have for him, and I strive to serve Him and live by His Word daily. And whether or not I have the answers, I will still choose to trust Him with everything He is doing in my life.
I hate debates, and that's not what I want with my questions....but I'm quiet certain, I'm not the only one who have qusetioned this, and wont be the last.
I do thank you so much. 
Abbagail Grace
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/15/2008 6:01:09 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 443
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I'm quiet certain, I'm not the only one who have qusetioned this, and wont be the last.
We all have prayers in our lives that we are waiting on God to answer for us. I learned a long time ago that what I want God to do in my own personal life seems to be more forthcoming than what I want to see in my loved ones lives. For me I long for the salvation of my two sons. So far nothing--but that doesn't mean that God isn't at work in their lives. I've been waiting over 11 years now. God knows what it will take to bring my sons home. I cling to anything I can see that resembles in any way God working in their lives. These evidences give me hope and keep me praying for them.
Trust God with your loved ones--no matter how impossible it may seem from your perspective, God is at work in their lives just like He's at work in my sons' lives. We have to be patient and trust God. Keep praying. God loves the people we love far more than we do.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/16/2008 3:05:49 AM
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MoparBaby
Posts: 18
Joined: 10/27/2008
Status: offline
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Maybe they just are not listening. I can relate to that. signs are there u ignore them, addicton and love are powerful our minds our powerful they might be heaing God's words, but not listening, doesnt mean you should not pray for them, it means you should keep praying. some day in their own way they will listen.
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/16/2008 3:16:07 PM
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rrayy81
Posts: 5
Joined: 5/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
When I was a child, I asked my parents for many things. Sometimes they gave me what I asked for. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they said: It costs too much. You'll have to wait a bit.
Sometimes, when I wanted more of a good thing (chocolates); they said: No, that's enough for now.
When they denied me what I wanted, or rationed what I had; it wasn't because they were evil. On the contrary, they loved me and cared for me. They did what was best for me. Too much chocolates would have made me sick.
God loves us. And He knows what's best for us at any given point in time in our lives. We may well want a broken relationship to heal and for the people to "live happily ever after". And sure, He can do that if He wanted to. But then where does it leave the people involved? Aren't they now robots just following His will?
So instead, God allows a situation to happen. He allows it to develop. Sometimes He brings opportunities our way. Opportunities for reconciliation. Opportunities for us to change our way of thinking and our behaviour. Opportunities for us to change for the better.
It's up to us to take these opportunities or not. Hence: Free Will.
Now this shouldn't stop us from praying. We still ask. We hope and we pray. But most of all we trust. We trust that His response, whatever it is, will be for our own good.
It is by trusting that He has our best interest at heart; only then, can we really say: Thy will be done - and mean it.
WOW that is the best explenation I have heard. Thank you
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RE: If God will not make someone "choose" to ... - 11/17/2008 9:13:09 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
When we speak about God's Will....I know the Bible, His Word...Is His Will, and if you go to it, and read about marriage and divorce, He is clearly against divorce, so if I pray, Thy Will Be Done, then I begin to question myself, "Lord do I have enough faith to trust that you will put this marriage back together, because according to your Will....it will be done." See, where I'm coming from?
I see nowhere in the Bible where it says that God will fix every bad marriage. What I do see is God pleading with people to come to Him, so that He can love them, so that they can then share that love with others, and those "others" would no doubt include spouses and ex-spouses.
God's will is to fix souls, not marriages. As a by-product of that...when the soul is right, the marriage will take care of itself. Our goal, as Christians is not to fix all the problems with people and the world, our goal is to lead them or lead them back to Jesus Christ. Then, in turn, Christ leads them and instructs them in the way they should go.
A failed marriage is a problem, but failing to receive and then to depend upon Christ's life in us...is a tragedy. So what if we gain a good marriage but loose our souls? The answer to whatever the problem is will always be Jesus Christ. And that is God's will.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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