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Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 12:10:40 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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I posted this in the "Men Only" forum but would like to see what women think about it.
I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?
Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think.
Your thoughts?
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 12:19:51 PM
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Sideways
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Well, our church is Lutheran. We don't have Kleenex boxes; we have two pots of flowers at the alter, I think. Our songs are very traditional hymns, and if you ask my opinion, they are sung with all the energy of a funeral dirge. I hate it. We used to have more modern music, and some of them were emotional love songs, but not a lot of them, going by memory.
We have a male pastor, male elders and many male SS teachers. I usually see husband/wife families at church. We may occasionally have a lady alone or with her children, but I've also seen single males there too.
I can't say I see a problem from my perspective, but there are other Lutheran churches from different synods that are much more feminine. They are more liberal with female pastors and everything. My SIL's mother came from a church where the women pretty much ran everything. Now good friends of ours attend a 3rd Lutheran church (also a different synod) where women have NO ROLE in that church. Men do EVERYTHING, and women keep their mouths shut.
Both of the above extremes are no good, in my opinion. No church is perfect, but I think our church has a good balance of feminine/masculine influence.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 1:35:42 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
Well, the church is called the Bride of Christ, so...
Actually, the church is never called the Bride of Christ in Scripture, but that is a completely different thread.
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 1:45:03 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4290
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
Well, the church is called the Bride of Christ, so...
*snort* 
I believe that in some churches, the seafoam carpet, whimsical paintings and church lady atmosphere might seem too feminine.
But is that the case in all churches? Definitely not and those churches have fewer men as well.
So, the excuses are getting more limited as to why men sit with the remote in their hands instead of their bibles.
Seriously...stop whining, grow a pair and make whatever changes you see that need to be made to get yourself and other men where God would have them. ( -- although my husband, nor Mark Driscoll can be quoted on making that statement, I know they would still say it.  )
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 2:23:40 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4290
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I am not whining either, just making an observation.
sorry...that was a generalized statement
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 2:50:40 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11512
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I've never seen a lot of flowers in the sanctuary except at Easter.
Songs - in our church, I don't see this. In my old church (which was more contemporary), I didn't see it, either.
Tissues - I've seen one box at the front of my old church. I wouldn't consider that "all over the place." We do have tissues in the bathrooms both here and my old church, but they're there for whatever purpose one wants them, not specifically for crying.
Male singers - I'm thinking back to the 50's when artists like Frankie Lymon were popular. They sounded a LOT more girly than the contemporary artists. I think this is just personal preference, not a reflection of the feminization of the church.
There may be some frou-frou churches out there, but I've not been a part of them. Maybe you're thinking more of the seeker-friendly or charismatic churches (not to dis these groups, just asking)?
Part of the problem (and I do see a problem with women doing everything in the church while the men sit around) is that the men just don't step up. There's a need, a task to do. The men are either busy working or tinkering in their workshops or whatever and don't volunteer, so the women do. The women do a good job of it, so when something else comes up, the men don't bother volunteering. It's a vicious cycle.
Currently our local congregation has a (male) head pastor and all male deacons and elders. If a woman were to get nominated or (gasp!) elected to be an elder or deacon, it WOULD cause several families to leave. So very few females want to rock the boat by accepting a nomination. (Other churches in our denom have women elders and deacons, but our specific congregation is one of the few holdouts in this area.) But here's the problem: very few men are willing to be an elder or deacon. Our last election cycle, we had several people turn down the nomination and ended up with a vacant elder seat. One man did step up and accept the position after all - he originally declined so he could focus on his family. So now his family could be suffering because he filled this position. It's only a matter of time before the women step up to fill the vacancies that the men are unwilling to fill. When that happens, turmoil in the church will result due to the views of women in ministry. Whose fault will it be when this happens - the women for usurping, or the men for not doing their duty? Good question.
Oops - I think I went on a rant. Sorry.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 4:07:40 PM
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phosadaud
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From: Washington State
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My church (the pastors at least) are totally into this idea and even the men in our church want to gag. This idea that men are all Tim Taylor - cave men is not only totally wrong, but IMHO insulting to men around the world.
In my church, there are no flowers in the sanctuary, they got rid of any flowers and such on worship slides on PPT, they have the "wild game dinners" and the sports events and the hunting trips and the fact is, the men's ministry is still small in comparison to the women's ministry (which ironically I am not a part of because it's too "girly" for my taste). I get so tired of trying to put everyone in a nice little box and telling them what they must like and must not like.
Let's be honest: You don't see men not going to a restaurant, because they have flowers in the lobby area. You don't see men avoiding these same restaurants that play "mushy" music either. In fact, some of the "mushiest", most passionate songs to God were written by and performed by men.
And some things that have been done away with in terms of "too feminine" are human things - not feminine things. Good gravy people - read the Bible if you think we get too mushy in church! Read what David wrote... What Paul wrote... What Jesus said... Being a man doesn't mean you don't have emotions and you don't care or can't be passionate about God. Being a man means you SHOULD have emotions and you SHOULD care and you SHOULD be passionate about God. Remember what God said about David - the "mush" King himself? He was a man after God's own heart. The fact is that I know many very masculine men - police officers, soldiers, carpenters, laborers, etc and I've seen these same men weep before God, shout out their love for our Lord and wrap their arms around their brother who is hurting in a big huge hug. THAT is manly. Not some guy who only sings at the "heavy" songs, who will only go to the sports parties and not the missions fundraiser, and who tells his hurting brother to "get over it" and walks away. That's weeny.
As I state earlier, my church is doing the "masculine" thing and it's not attracting men to church anymore than flowers in the sanctuary attracts women. Why? Because that's not what church is about!
Any man who leaves the Body of Christ because of kleenex in the pews was nothing more than a seat warmer and certainly not a man of God. Maybe the reason some men are supposedly leaving the churches is that God is cleaning house.
OK, mini rant over....
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 4:17:46 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3722
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Part of the problem (and I do see a problem with women doing everything in the church while the men sit around) is that the men just don't step up. There's a need, a task to do. The men are either busy working or tinkering in their workshops or whatever and don't volunteer, so the women do. The women do a good job of it, so when something else comes up, the men don't bother volunteering. It's a vicious cycle.
I totally agree with you. Personally, I think men are just looking for an excuse to relax during their free time and not serve the church.
If certain things at your church are bothering you, then step up! Suggest new songs you would prefer to sing, changes to the look of the sanctuary, whatever you can think of.
I have seen men here at CW say that if only the women would step back, then and only then would men step up. So, we're supposed to let our church fall to pieces because men want to watch ESPN?
Our church has several masculine-oriented ministries:
1.) A firewood chopping ministry - How much more masculine can you get then chopping firewood?
2.) Maintenance Saturdays where people fix stuff, clean up, tear down and put up - Men like projects don't they?
3.) Helping folks who are out of a job - It's very manly to help a guy support his family by giving practical assistance in his job hunt.
_____________________________
This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 4:21:40 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10649
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I have seen men here at CW say that if only the women would step back, then and only then would men step up.
Apparently these men have no concept of what a leader is. Good thing they aren't in a leadership position. They'd fail miserably.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 4:32:40 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4290
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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If you have good godly men in leadership, then good godly men should be following...if not, then find some new men.
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/29/2008 9:17:24 PM
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p31woman
Posts: 633
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas, and now South Dakota
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:: standing up and applauding doinkdom,Auben, phosadaud, elastic, and Sideways ::
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So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 11:39:14 AM
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retro-goddess
Posts: 43
Joined: 9/24/2007
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If you mean talking about church being too feminine in how it looks - I can't answer that.
If you mean talking about church being too feminine in how it runs, I need to agree with the other ladies. Not enough men (and there are plently of men in my church) just don't step up and lead.
On another note, I got into a conversation with a guy friend of mine last week. He says in a broad sweeping statement that "the reason today why marriages fail is that women don't submit to their husbands." I said "show me a husband that leads and is will to die for his wife, and I'll show you a woman who has no problem submitting."
The point being is that there is equal responsibility on both sides. You can't blame one person without looking at yourself first (or your gender.)
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 11:53:11 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4290
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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You guys should check out the "where are the men" thread in ministry leaders. Enlightening.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 1:41:50 PM
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LoyalFriend
Posts: 134
Joined: 9/29/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem?
Your thoughts?
Men are leaders so shouldn't they be leading the way to church? Quit worrying about flowers and music, get busy. I'd say be the man and man up. Men who want to attend church do and those who do not do what they want to do.
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RE: Is Church too feminine? - 7/30/2008 2:04:00 PM
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saraimay75
Posts: 7890
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Wherever God plants me.
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I agree with LoyalFriend. My last church had men come and we had flowers tissue boxes and sang with feeling. We also hugged. The church I am currently going to may not have flowers or tissue boxes...But we sing with feeling. And we hug. I guess these men figure that church is only a part of the day and they can go tinker and watch sports after or before church. We have men singing on stage with feeling. Dancing also.
My chuch is also headed up by a husband and wife Pastoral team. When the wife spoke men came to hear her.
I guess these men are manning up to be with G-d.
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God love admiration . . . I think it annoys God if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.
~Alice Walker~
http://360.yahoo.com/saraimay75
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