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Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "False ... - 5/1/2008 1:16:06 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
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Or just a "Gossip Forum"? Examine and analyse all the thread titles. According to Scripture "church" is for edification (building up the saints).
Perhaps a "False Teachers & Heresies Forum" is overdue?
Your observations will be beneficial.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 2:07:49 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1734
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Or something along the lines of an Apologetics page.
You are right that there are a lot of false teacher threads showing up. . . unfortunately, there are a lot of false teachers showing up in the church.
I guess those man watch over that kind of thing are more vocal about calling them out on the thread than people who post otherwise.
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-Ben-
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 8:13:17 AM
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earthless
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Like Ben said - it is because there are many false teachings and false prophets making the church rounds and influencing countless people into cyanide ridden waters.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 8:36:27 AM
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rlj
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Ezra the idea isn't bad- I like the idea of calling it an apologetics forum. The only downside is take a look at how often the words heresy and heretic are used. It seems that if one doesn't like something they always pull out the old "it's heretical" argument.
I'll quote Ezra as to why I think it should go under Aplogetics:
quote:
The best way to identify a heresy is to know Bible truth. The best way to combat heresy is to proclaim Bible truth.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 8:49:22 AM
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earthless
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rlj,
Yes, but it is extremely easy to see if something being called heresy or someone being called a heretic really is based off of the context of Scripture.
And honestly? I think you (anyone) would be really hard pressed to find recent examples of something being called heresy that really isn't.
I may be wrong, but it would be interesting to see if that voice of concern really applies to this forum.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 9:38:16 AM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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Yes, of course! Heresy is easy to find as along as you know the essentials of the faith (with all the attendant sub-paragraphs that morph from doctrine to dogma...)!
Frankly, it's gossip and very close to slander. Would we be as publicly strident in our opinions if we weren't behind the curtain of our internet anonymity???
But I digress...
The example that Scripture offers us is that of a whole Church council to correct false teaching within the Brethren. Not lone rangers, running around, pointing fingers shouting, "He's a heretic! He's a heretic!" The reason we have so much attention paid to this these days is not because we have so many more false teachers/teaching in the Church than ever before, but because folk are making careers of ferreting them out...and the internet as well as Christian media brings them to our attention much easier than in times past.
I think we can all discern what's a false teaching outside the Church. But when it's inside the Church...someone professing Christ who goes astray of the doctrines of the faith...we have a Scriptural mechanism for correction:
Matthew 18 leading to Church discipline and an Ecumenical Council, if/when necessary.
The problem is too many churches "don't play well with others" to make that work.
So, yes, an apologetics/polemics thread might be nice. Then The Church can get back to fellowshipping and edifying one another...
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 10:22:38 AM
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wintery
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Or just a "Gossip Forum"? Examine and analyse all the thread titles. According to Scripture "church" is for edification (building up the saints).
Perhaps a "False Teachers & Heresies Forum" is overdue?
Your observations will be beneficial.
Ezra, to a lot of people these teachers of "off" doctrine ARE _the_Church.
I realize that many haven't even heard of some of them, and I am happy for them, that this isn't their church life.
But _where_ does someone go who is caught in the deception of these ministries when they begin to wonder, to get a clue, or begin to become convinced that there is something seriously wrong, _where_ does that person go to find support?
In a Third Wave church _any_ expression of serious doubt about what is being taught or is going on is going to result in a state of virtual disfellowship. These people deserve a place where they can hear that they weren't "in rebellion", "causing division", "having problems with authority", etcetera.
About "gossip", what a defense some of these characters have in that! Church leaders have their minions that rally around them when they are "attacked" by "false charges"...what a cover for SIN!
For those who have been out on a limb wondering what was wrong with them that they couldn't accept what was going on around them, there really should be a place of welcome where they can hear that in fact, they were hearing from God, while their leaders had failed them.
_____________________________
"There is no work better than to please God; to pour water, to wash dishes, to be a cobbler, or an apostle, all are one as touching the deed, to please God."-William Tyndale
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 11:11:50 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
For those who have been out on a limb wondering what was wrong with them that they couldn't accept what was going on around them, there really should be a place of welcome where they can hear that in fact, they were hearing from God, while their leaders had failed them.
It truly would be good to have a place for such "truth seekers."
But, sadly they seem to be in such a minority, that no matter where they look,
they themselves are attacked at the "heretical brethren."
All of us seem to be bias and slanted in our views.
It would have to be a "no spin zone." lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 11:16:27 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
"no spin zone."
I don't think I've ever seen such an animal, LOL
Except for what I post, which is of course 100% accurate & truthful and like Mary Poppins, practically perfect in every way.
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 11:18:22 AM
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wintery
Posts: 595
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
It would have to be a "no spin zone." lol.
By necessity, it will alway be outside of "the comfort zone".
_____________________________
"There is no work better than to please God; to pour water, to wash dishes, to be a cobbler, or an apostle, all are one as touching the deed, to please God."-William Tyndale
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 11:29:06 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1734
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Frankly, it's gossip and very close to slander. Would we be as publicly strident in our opinions if we weren't behind the curtain of our internet anonymity???
It's not gossip to warn fellow Christians about wolves in sheep clothing. Nor is it slander to call a wolf a wolf.
And, in fact, many of us are bold outside the realm of the internet. This afternoon I am giving a presentation in class (I go to a Bible school) which mentions people like Osteen and Jakes.
quote:
So, yes, an apologetics/polemics thread might be nice. Then The Church can get back to fellowshipping and edifying one another...
Truth is always edifying, even if it makes one uncomfortable. Edification does not mean feeling good. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:03:50 PM
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lw9
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quote:
AoibhinnGrainne: Frankly, it's gossip and very close to slander. Would we be as publicly strident in our opinions if we weren't behind the curtain of our internet anonymity???
Since when does pointing out the facts of false teachings that someone has made publically [complete with audio, video, and transcripts as evidence] qualify as gossip and slander. If teacher X publically states something contrary to scripture, it's not gossip to point this out. There's no way I'm going to remain silent if I can help prevent someone else from being deceived, and I do that offline as well as online. It's witnessing the truth.
quote:
1Love1God1Way:You are right that there are a lot of false teacher threads showing up. . . unfortunately, there are a lot of false teachers showing up in the church.
This is what I see as well. It's not that people are obsessed with digging this stuff up. It's the times we live in where the church is being infiltrated by so many false teachers and many Christians have lost either the ability or the desire to discern right from wrong. I didn't create the plethora of false teachers. I'm just pointing them out.
Typically when a thread touches someone's 'golden cow', the cries of gossip, slander, and all the emotional arguments come out in full force even when the discussion is based on actual facts and being compared scripturally. It's ridiculous and it tries to turn the people who's concern is to tell the truth and warn others into the 'bad' guys.
quote:
Truth is always edifying, even if it makes one uncomfortable. Edification does not mean feeling good. . .
I could not agree with you more. It is truly refreshing to hear the truth. It is greatly edifying to me to know there are discerning Christians out there who are so diligently studying the scriptures and are not being taken in by everything 'new'.
quote:
Wintery: But _where_ does someone go who is caught in the deception of these ministries when they begin to wonder, to get a clue, or begin to become convinced that there is something seriously wrong, _where_ does that person go to find support?
And this is an excellent point that should not be ignored, now that I think about it. I've seen so many people here in the church folder that have noticed 'something strange' creeping into their church, but for various reasons they could not put their finger on it. They might be new Christians or have just floated along with their church and not studied their Bibles much. These threads have literally helped people identify the source and come out from under false teachings. Helping to prevent deception among our church family seems like a great use of the Church folder to me.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/1/2008 12:32:41 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:12:21 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Frankly, it's gossip and very close to slander. Would we be as publicly strident in our opinions if we weren't behind the curtain of our internet anonymity???
It's not gossip to warn fellow Christians about wolves in sheep clothing. Nor is it slander to call a wolf a wolf.
And, in fact, many of us are bold outside the realm of the internet. This afternoon I am giving a presentation in class (I go to a Bible school) which mentions people like Osteen and Jakes.
quote:
So, yes, an apologetics/polemics thread might be nice. Then The Church can get back to fellowshipping and edifying one another...
Truth is always edifying, even if it makes one uncomfortable. Edification does not mean feeling good. . .
Ahhh...forgive me then. In my study of Scripture, I am not aware that individual names were named, but that particular teachings were given. Perhaps it is my translation; or my age. I have probably forgotten...
I do remember, though, that Paul speaks of "certain people" (1Timothy 1:3-4) without mentioning them by name. And in Titus, we have the mention of Cretans (not individual Cretans) and false teaching without resorting to naming names.
Perhaps this is just a personal scruple of mine; perhaps it is generational. I was raised that if I couldn't say anything nice about someone, to not say anything at all...
Of course, that doesn't preclude pointing out error and heresy when one finds it. It just precludes making it personal. One can still discuss chiliasm without discussing the modern day evangelists who resurrected that old chestnut!
Yes...True Truth is always edifying. As long as one has removed one's personal plank first. And one remembers what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 13:6 ~ Love does not gloat over other people's sins but takes its delight in the truth.
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:16:55 PM
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lw9
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quote:
AoibhinnGrainne: Ahhh...forgive me then. In my study of Scripture, I am not aware that individual names were named, but that particular teachings were given. Perhaps it is my translation; or my age. I have probably forgotten...
1 Tim 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publically, so that the others may take warning.
2 Cor 13:2 On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, 3 since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
3 John 1:9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10 So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
1 Tim 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
2 Tim 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth –
Also consider:
Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Who is 'them'? How do the brethren keep away from them if they don't know them by name???
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/1/2008 12:30:04 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:19:24 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 4085
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Then The Church can get back to fellowshipping and edifying one another...
Oh yeah, let's all sit around in a circle, holding hands, singing "Cumbaya, My Lord," and "loving" each other while people are going to H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks in a hand basket as a result of all the false teachers/teaching out there. That's a good idea! 
What some don't seem to be able to comprehend is that when a little garbage is allowed in, before too long it is difficult (especially for those not well versed in the Word of God) to distinguish the garbage from the Truth and that's the way heresy takes root.
Real love is protecting our brothers and sisters from the lies according to the Word of God:
"1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words..." ~II Peter 2
1 "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at* His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." ~II Timothy 4
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:25:15 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1419
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Of course, that doesn't preclude pointing out error and heresy when one finds it. It just precludes making it personal. One can still discuss chiliasm without discussing the modern day evangelists who resurrected that old chestnut!
Aoi.
Paul made it personal when he commended the Bereans to test all HIS teaching against Scripture.
There is an entire broadcast network out there spreading heresy and false doctrine. They are backed by MILLIONS of dollars. The amount of Bereans out there defending the Word against these "pulpit pimps" is chump change compared to the vast resources of this network.
But praise God that it hasn't stopped them. Until I breathe my last breath, and the Lord calls me home, I will continue to defend the holy word of Almighty God from these snakes out there that use that Word to line their pockets.
A large portion of this forum is dedicated to this subject because a large portion of the body of Christ is being infiltrated by them
And guess what...I WILL name names (as lw9 has proven, is quite biblical)
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:51:46 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4961
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Personally, I don't engage in gossip. If someone writes a book and it is full of theological error, and we discuss those theological errors, that is not gossip.
The reason we are discussing a lot of false teaching and false teachers in the church folder is because there are a lot of false teachers with a lot of false teaching in the church.
Sadly, correct Biblical study and understanding is greatly lacking, and many have a difficult time recognizing false teaching when they see it.
What is truly sad, Ezra, is that we find ourselves defending basic Biblical beliefs in the Church folder. 
< Message edited by crankius -- 5/1/2008 12:58:17 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 12:59:47 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4040
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From: where thawing pigeons reside...
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Ben,
I know that many would and will not - it would entirely defeat the purpose.
When my wife was involved in those circles, she was brain-washed to the point where to even question anything done or preached from her church's pulpit was akin to "blaspheming the Holy Spirit..."
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 1:50:58 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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Thank you for correcting me, in bold face and in colour, no less...
But you'all royally missed my point. Thank you, again, for taking it out of context, as usual. I see the usual suspects have gathered. I may as well be speaking Greek...
And forgive me, again, if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that Scripture expects the average Believer to know what is true and what is false for themselves. And that there is no excuse for anyone who does not...
What I am getting from the above (let me count them) Seven Posters, is that false teaching is soooooo prevalent, soooooo subtle, and that the average Believer is soooooo dumb, and Scripture is soooooo hard to understand, that it takes learned folk such as yourselves to point it out.
Because, golly gee, Christians can and are brainwashed!!!
Huh.
I thought "greater is He Who is in me, then he who is in the World" and "perseverance of the Saints" and all of that stuff. Must be false teaching then.
I think for myself. When I first looked into this Forum (BIG mistake) my eyes were opened to people and ministries I had never heard of, knew nothing about, had no clue about. I have been a busy little camper, googling Rita Somebody-Or-Other and trying to find out what the "Third Wave" is and learning about what Joel Osteen and his big teeth are all about...
In other words, I was a happy Believer in my Orthodox Presbyterian Church and now, oh my!, I am worried about this, that, and the other heresy.
Huh.
Thanks, guys. I am going back into my foxhole where I was safe and warm and studying the words of God, knowing little to nothing about all this worldly stuff.
BTW, I think singing Kumbaya is stupid in the extreme.
And some of you are getting quite adept at drawing conclusions for me that I, myself, hadn't even thought of.
Wow. Prophets in the Church, perhaps?
But I digress...
Aoi.
BTW, On that other thread where I first got to know some of you...RH was the first and only non-denominational books and retreat I had ever gone to ever... I have lived a remarkably sheltered life in the Reformed and Presbyterian World, which we all know is the Elect of God, chosen from before the Foundations, His real Chosen People LOL!!! (see tongue in cheek)...
Thanks for opening my eyes to the real Christian world. Yours.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 1:52:01 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
Status: offline
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PS: Mathew 18. It starts with Matthew 18, you'all. Or am I missing something again???
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 1:56:42 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4961
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Thank you for correcting me, in bold face and in colour, no less...
But you'all royally missed my point. Thank you, again, for taking it out of context, as usual. I see the usual suspects have gathered. I may as well be speaking Greek...
And forgive me, again, if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that Scripture expects the average Believer to know what is true and what is false for themselves. And that there is no excuse for anyone who does not...
What I am getting from the above (let me count them) Seven Posters, is that false teaching is soooooo prevalent, soooooo subtle, and that the average Believer is soooooo dumb, and Scripture is soooooo hard to understand, that it takes learned folk such as yourselves to point it out.
Because, golly gee, Christians can and are brainwashed!!!
Huh.
I thought "greater is He Who is in me, then he who is in the World" and "perseverance of the Saints" and all of that stuff. Must be false teaching then.
I think for myself. When I first looked into this Forum (BIG mistake) my eyes were opened to people and ministries I had never heard of, knew nothing about, had no clue about. I have been a busy little camper, googling Rita Somebody-Or-Other and trying to find out what the "Third Wave" is and learning about what Joel Osteen and his big teeth are all about...
In other words, I was a happy Believer in my Orthodox Presbyterian Church and now, oh my!, I am worried about this, that, and the other heresy.
Huh.
Thanks, guys. I am going back into my foxhole where I was safe and warm and studying the words of God, knowing little to nothing about all this worldly stuff.
BTW, I think singing Kumbaya is stupid in the extreme.
And some of you are getting quite adept at drawing conclusions for me that I, myself, hadn't even thought of.
Wow. Prophets in the Church, perhaps?
But I digress...
Aoi.
BTW, On that other thread where I first got to know some of you...RH was the first and only non-denominational books and retreat I had ever gone to ever... I have lived a remarkably sheltered life in the Reformed and Presbyterian World, which we all know is the Elect of God, chosen from before the Foundations, His real Chosen People LOL!!! (see tongue in cheek)...
Thanks for opening my eyes to the real Christian world. Yours.
aoi,
Perhaps the theo folders aren't for you. There are a lot of other folders on Crosswalk where believers chat and have fun. You might find an entirely different side of people there, and we might not seem so "usual suspects". 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 1:59:28 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1734
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
What I am getting from the above (let me count them) Seven Posters, is that false teaching is soooooo prevalent, soooooo subtle, and that the average Believer is soooooo dumb, and Scripture is soooooo hard to understand, that it takes learned folk such as yourselves to point it out.
Because, golly gee, Christians can and are brainwashed!!!
Joel Osteen's church is the largest in America.
Well, unless you consider Oprah's. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Is the "Church Forum" becoming a "Fa... - 5/1/2008 2:01:40 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 926
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: online
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If I bake a batch of brownies, use milk, eggs, real chocolate, etc.
BUT first I go out in the street and get a thimble full of dog poop and mix it in, will you eat the brownies?
Full of good stuff, with just a very small amount of bad stuff mixed in.
Of course not. Unless I did not tell you . Then you would happily munch the poop brownies in ignorance.
False teachings are the same way. Bits of poop floating in otherwise great churches. Someone needs to explain the recipe, SO PEOPLE WILL KNOW.
_____________________________
"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did..and did it backwards and in heels!
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