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Isaiah 14 - 9/8/2008 11:05:30 PM
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seeker316
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Joined: 6/30/2005
From: Washington State
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I was reading. I thought that verses 4 through 27 was addressing a king of Babylon. But in verse 12 he starts addressing him as Lucifer.
(From the new King James version)
"How you are fallen from heaven. O Lucifer, son of morning! How your are cut down to the ground. You who weakened the nations!"
O_O
I thought Lucifer was the Devil. But after reading this from my understanding he is a Babylonian king.
Someone help me out here.
_____________________________
God so loved the world that he gave his own begotten son so that whoever believed in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life- John 3:16
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/8/2008 11:43:24 PM
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phyl2
Posts: 246
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quote:
I thought Lucifer was the Devil. But after reading this from my understanding he is a Babylonian king.
As you have noticed, the passage is directed at a Babylonian king. The word "lucifer" is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word, which means "light bearer". (lucifer is Latin for light bearer) It was a Hebrew term for Venus or the morning star.
At some point in the 4th century, some people began to interpret the passage as referring to satan, probably because of similarity to Jesus stating that He saw satan falling from heaven. However, Jesus never refers to the devil as Lucifer, only as satan.
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/9/2008 6:39:06 AM
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Tagurit
Posts: 22
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Many commentators report that this is a dual prophecy in both Isaiah 14 and even in Ezekiel. I have heard many sermons on the "7 I wills" that satan espouses in these verses. There is also a chapter in Ezekiel (chapter 28) this is a prophecy against the King of Tyre but this also has dual meaning. Read starting in verse 11 below (from the ESV). There are many places in Psalms and in the prophets where there is clearly dual meanings. Many of the Psalms were written by David dealing with his present circumstances but also have dual meanings--many of them about tribulation and the millenial kingdom.
11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man,raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:
"You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/9/2008 4:33:56 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1538
Joined: 11/8/2007
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It is believed that there is a rabbinic tradition of taking something with which people are familiar and applying it to the issue at hand. This, I believe, is what Matthew is doing when he says a particular Scripture is "fullfilled". Yeshua(Jesus) also appears to use this rabbinic tool, especially when He uses the phrase, "You have heard it said. . .".
Therefore, I think, one needs to take this teaching tool into consideration when one looks at quotes from the Scriptures. Sometimes the Scripture reference is directly to the point and sometimes it illustrates the point. So, whether Adonai would call the Accuser Lucifer or not is subject to much debate. What we do know is the prophets were directed to instruct several rulers that they were put in place by Adonai and that they would lose that status if they failed to realize that fact.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/9/2008 7:38:20 PM
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dduuggyy
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You are correct...it is the King of Babylon and he is referred to as Lucifer as a ajective as referring to satan. It's description is of an evil nature as in a representation of character, as Christ referred to Peter "get the behind me satan" satan referred to his evil nature as from the beginning in Genesis..as ADAM is referred to as the serpeant and the King Babylon had enslaved his people. Great insight you are on the right track. God Bless
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/9/2008 9:45:44 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11512
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
as ADAM is referred to as the serpeant
Scripture reference, please?
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/10/2008 7:20:28 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dduuggyy
You are correct...it is the King of Babylon and he is referred to as Lucifer as a ajective as referring to satan. It's description is of an evil nature as in a representation of character, as Christ referred to Peter "get the behind me satan" satan referred to his evil nature as from the beginning in Genesis..as ADAM is referred to as the serpeant and the King Babylon had enslaved his people. Great insight you are on the right track. God Bless
Sorry, I don't see it. (You even spelled adjective wrong.) The King of Babylon is referred to as "the morning star," and the Latin form of it is Lucifer. Tradition translates "the morning star" as Lucifer, and in turn as a reference to Satan. But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/12/2008 9:26:47 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
Lucifer is never referred to as Satan and in fact this is the only verse in scripture where Lucifer is even mentioned by name.
The main issue is whether Satan was a liar from the beginning like John said or whether Lucifer was good but went bad and is Satan.
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/13/2008 1:38:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1538
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
Lucifer is never referred to as Satan and in fact this is the only verse in scripture where Lucifer is even mentioned by name.
The main issue is whether Satan was a liar from the beginning like John said or whether Lucifer was good but went bad and is Satan.
Even if we believe Ha Satan was good and became bad, that does not mean that this portion of Scripture is talking about Him. That would be a matter of interpretation defining Scripture rather than Scripture defining interpretation.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/14/2008 3:14:03 AM
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phyl2
Posts: 246
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Even if we believe Ha Satan was good and became bad, that does not mean that this portion of Scripture is talking about Him. That would be a matter of interpretation defining Scripture rather than Scripture defining interpretation.
Yes, and to even consider lucifer as a name in this verse is a matter of interpretation defining scripture as well.
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/16/2008 5:27:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
Lucifer is never referred to as Satan and in fact this is the only verse in scripture where Lucifer is even mentioned by name.
The main issue is whether Satan was a liar from the beginning like John said or whether Lucifer was good but went bad and is Satan.
It is debatable as to whether or not this is even referring to Satan in any way at all. This is NOT the only verse in the Bible referring to "the morning star." That is the basic meaning of Lucifer. Christ is called "the morning star" in Revelation. Is Jesus Lucifer? The name "Lucifer" meant something like "light-bearer." It was the precursor of the coming of the new day.
In many pagan cultures, the "morning star" (aka the planet Venus) was identified with some god or goddess. The NET Bible suggests that Isaiah is a mock song referencing an actual pagan mythological story in the Canaanite culture.
The King of Babylon, having "delusions of grandeur" would then be elevating himself. The prophet, in response, would be comparing the king with a mythological god who failed an attempted coup of the king of gods. Such "delusions of grandeur" would fail with the True God humbling all of those who had such pride.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/16/2008 7:41:55 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: seeker316
I was reading. I thought that verses 4 through 27 was addressing a king of Babylon. But in verse 12 he starts addressing him as Lucifer.
(From the new King James version)
"How you are fallen from heaven. O Lucifer, son of morning! How your are cut down to the ground. You who weakened the nations!"
O_O
I thought Lucifer was the Devil. But after reading this from my understanding he is a Babylonian king.
Someone help me out here.
You got it correct. Lucifer just means morning star or something in that vain. The devil is never referred to by that name.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/16/2008 7:47:15 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: dduuggyy
You are correct...it is the King of Babylon and he is referred to as Lucifer as a ajective as referring to satan. It's description is of an evil nature as in a representation of character, as Christ referred to Peter "get the behind me satan" satan referred to his evil nature as from the beginning in Genesis..as ADAM is referred to as the serpeant and the King Babylon had enslaved his people. Great insight you are on the right track. God Bless
Sorry, I don't see it. (You even spelled adjective wrong.) The King of Babylon is referred to as "the morning star," and the Latin form of it is Lucifer. Tradition translates "the morning star" as Lucifer, and in turn as a reference to Satan. But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
Where in scripture is Satan ever equated to as Lucifer? You are exactly right. Satan is a different word.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/16/2008 7:48:50 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
But exactly where in the text is Lucifer referred to as Satan? Satan is a different word.
Lucifer is never referred to as Satan and in fact this is the only verse in scripture where Lucifer is even mentioned by name.
The main issue is whether Satan was a liar from the beginning like John said or whether Lucifer was good but went bad and is Satan.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It is debatable as to whether or not this is even referring to Satan in any way at all. This is NOT the only verse in the Bible referring to "the morning star." That is the basic meaning of Lucifer. Christ is called "the morning star" in Revelation. Is Jesus Lucifer? The name "Lucifer" meant something like "light-bearer." It was the precursor of the coming of the new day.
In many pagan cultures, the "morning star" (aka the planet Venus) was identified with some god or goddess. The NET Bible suggests that Isaiah is a mock song referencing an actual pagan mythological story in the Canaanite culture.
The King of Babylon, having "delusions of grandeur" would then be elevating himself. The prophet, in response, would be comparing the king with a mythological god who failed an attempted coup of the king of gods. Such "delusions of grandeur" would fail with the True God humbling all of those who had such pride.
Right on GrahamCracker
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/28/2008 8:38:33 AM
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makarizo
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the king of Babylon was merely a spokesman for saten, a servant, controlled by, under Satan's authority.
_____________________________
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/29/2008 3:26:00 AM
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phyl2
Posts: 246
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
the king of Babylon was merely a spokesman for saten, a servant, controlled by, under Satan's authority.
Perhaps, but, that does not prove that Lucifer is Satan's name, or that this passage is referring to more than just the king of Babylon.
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RE: Isaiah 14 - 9/29/2008 1:37:54 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2417
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
the king of Babylon was merely a spokesman for satan
That wouldn't necessarily be correct, either.
The Babylonian army coming against God's people was part of God's plan. God himself is the orator of these events that happened and the exile.
_____________________________
love.ben
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