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Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 12:20:52 PM
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wintery
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Rabbie Boteach supposes that Jesus is too friendly to the Romans while being too harsh on Jewish leaders. At least, in the Gospels, as we now have them.
Does the Bible portray a Jesus who is too Roman-friendly?
Boteach says, "I have written many articles arguing that it is time for the world Jewish community to reclaim the Jewish Jesus by understanding his original mission and his great love for his people before his story was later edited by Pauline writers and before he was made into an enemy of the Jews and a friend of the Romans."
Edited by Pauline writers? Have any of you come across this idea? How would you answer it?
Jesus and the Romans
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 12:37:14 PM
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LCannon
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Oh, I dunno. Probably it was a mutual effort; after all the Roman's crucified Jesus under their authority. Sure, it was at the insistence of the the Saducees/Pharisees but the Roman's did their unwitting dirty work.
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"[Prayer power] hasn't never been taxed to[His]full capacity. His standing challenge, 'Call on
Me and I will answer with great and mighty things which thou can't imagine." Hudson Tayor
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 12:58:25 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Rabbie Boteach supposes that Jesus is too friendly to the Romans while being too harsh on Jewish leaders. At least, in the Gospels, as we now have them.
Does the Bible portray a Jesus who is too Roman-friendly?
Boteach says, "I have written many articles arguing that it is time for the world Jewish community to reclaim the Jewish Jesus by understanding his original mission and his great love for his people before his story was later edited by Pauline writers and before he was made into an enemy of the Jews and a friend of the Romans."
Edited by Pauline writers? Have any of you come across this idea? How would you answer it?
Jesus and the Romans
That's just plain silly 
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 1:22:57 PM
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45degreeN
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For Jesus to get into rabble rousing against the Romans would mean he was no better than any of the others who claimed to be the messiah (there were five others )It would have taken Him off message and it just wasn't going to happen.
On the other hand the leaders of God's people the Israelites knew God's word, had everything they needed to follow Jesus and chose actually to hinder the people from following Him. This makes them far more liable than the Romans who had none of that.
Go to the "Life of Brian" the movie and watch the scene where the conspirators develop their "demands" puts a whole new light on the Romans
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 4:23:54 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Jesus didn't come to confront the Romans; He came to the Jews.
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"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 4:57:48 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Jesus didn't come to confront the Romans; He came to the Jews.
It is true that Yeshua(Jesus) pointed out the he came to the lost children of Israel. But, he did on a few occasions show grace to the persistant Gentile. Persistence was neccessary for the Gentile because, for the most part, the Gentiles were unfamiliar with the Scriptures. I believe, He came to the children of Israel first because it makes more sense to correct those who are familiar the Scripture than try to teach those who don't have a clue.
Some may see Yeshua and Paul, His disciple, as Roman friendly because their clarfications of Ha Torah(The Word) contadict some rabbinic teaching. It is interesting today, that some who follow His example of seeking clarification of Ha Torah are criticized for being a Jew lovers, as if that were a bad thing.
Mt 11:16 "To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 17 "'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/28/2008 5:04:18 PM >
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 4:58:00 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Rabbie Boteach supposes that Jesus is too friendly to the Romans while being too harsh on Jewish leaders. At least, in the Gospels, as we now have them.
Does the Bible portray a Jesus who is too Roman-friendly?
Boteach says, "I have written many articles arguing that it is time for the world Jewish community to reclaim the Jewish Jesus by understanding his original mission and his great love for his people before his story was later edited by Pauline writers and before he was made into an enemy of the Jews and a friend of the Romans."
Edited by Pauline writers? Have any of you come across this idea? How would you answer it?
Jesus and the Romans
Jesus 'original' mission was not edited by the Apostle Paul...it was explained.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/28/2008 8:05:08 PM
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robto
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Boteach seems to be referring to a recent scholarly trend to emphasize the Jewishness of Jesus (see a summary here). It is clear, too, that Paul's interpretation of Jesus's message was somewhat different from the interpretation of some of the Jerusalem Christians. For instance, Paul says that when some "messengers from James" came to Antioch, Cephas stopped eating with the Gentiles in the church (Gal 2:11-14). This separation at mealtimes was a requirement of Jewish law, but one that Paul opposed. Likewise, some in the church insisted that Gentiles be circumcised (Gal 5:2, 6:15), but Paul did not.
The gospels are generally considered to have been written later than Paul's letters, and in some ways they reflect Paul's views. But blaming the relatively pro-Roman aspects of the gospels on Paul's influence seems a bit absurd. After all, Paul was arrested and (probably) executed by the Romans - not something that would make Paul's churches pro-Roman, I'd imagine.
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The Theory of Almost Everything: Everything you always wanted to know about elementary particles but were afraid to ask
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/29/2008 7:54:53 AM
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heavensmailman
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Did not Jesus come to save the world from sin?
Did not he come to save all of his children, the Jews, the Romans and all the Gentiles?
He came to the Jews, because he was with Moses and their forefathers.
The Jewish leaders knew he was from God.
John-3:2 Nicodemus said: " Rabbi, we ( not I ) --We know you are a teacher who has come from God."
The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans did not believe him.
The Jews still reject Jesus, but the Romans ( Gentiles) now believe.
He came for all his children.
Peace
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/29/2008 12:26:12 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
Doc65:
Couldn't get the link to open except to say the site was overloaded but I was wondering how does the good Rabbi explain away the fact that Paul/Saul was himself a loyal, faithful Jew prior to the Road to Damascus (and why does that always remind me of the title for an old Bob Hope/Bing Crosby movie? )
I'm not familiar with Rabbai Boteach, however, Paul is still a loyal, faithful Jew. At the road to Damascus He just realized that Yeshua's followers are also faithful to Ha Torah and did not need to follow rabbinic Judaism as if it were Torah. That is why he was upset with Peter for rejecting the Gentiles to appease "the circumcision"(rabbinic judaism). He did not Romanize the worship of Adonai, but continued Yeshua's (Jesus') mission of clarifying Ha Torah.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 4/29/2008 2:20:09 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
heavensmailman:
The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans did not believe him.
The Jews still reject Jesus, but the Romans ( Gentiles) now believe.
He came for all his children.
As heavensmailman I hope you are aware of the consequences for tampering with the mail.
The "Romans" rejected Yeshua(Jesus) and still do, in general. Some of them believe, as do some of the those who are genetically children of Avraham.
Also, I believe we all are created in Adonai's image, bu, I do not believe that we are all children of Adonai, otherwise Yochanan(John) would not have told us how to recognize Adonai's children.
1Jo 3:10 This is how we know who the children of (Adonai) are and who the children of the (Ha Satan) are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of (Adonai); nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/1/2008 8:17:10 AM
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rlj
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quote:
Does the Bible portray a Jesus who is too Roman-friendly?
I believe he healed the servant of one Roman soldier. He healed many many Jews.
He didn't initially come to bring the gospel to the Romans. He initially brought the gospel to the Jews.
He didn't teach the Romans how to live abundantly and please God, He taught that to the Jews.
He didn't invite any Romans to share in his earthly ministry the first 12 Apostles were only Jews.
Most importantly it wasn't the Romans who spread out and started the church it was the Jews.
I don't understand this guy at all. What exactly is his problem? It wasn't the Romans who helped Jesus start the early church it was the Jews.
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-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/1/2008 10:56:51 AM
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wintery
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I've read Boteach before on WorldNetDaily. He is a smart man, but he's missing it here.
Last night I was watching the Naked Archaelogist program and he was talking about Herod the Great's buildings. Now _there_ is someone who was Roman-friendly. He named two wings of his palace after prominent Romans. The Herod family worked with the Romans to keep order in the region.
So how did Jesus really stand with the Roman-friendly Herods?
First of all, in Matthew 10:18 Jesus tells His followers: And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Since the Romans ruled a huge area many of these governors and kings would have been Roman representatives. "against them and the Gentiles" does not sound like they're getting a free pass.
Herod the Great, friend of Rome, tried to kill Jesus in the slaughter of the innocents- Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men (Matthew 2:16)
Herod the tetrarch heard of Jesus in Matthew 14 and thought he was a resurrected John the Baptist, whom he killed. The story is told in a "flashback" in Matthew 14. There is much more about this Herod including his role in Jesus' trial and execution and his subsequent friend ship (Luke 23:12)with Roman governor Pontius Pilate.
But I want to go to the verses that Boteach is concerned with involving the paying of tribute. Recall those pharasaical representatives wanted to trip Jesus up with the question. Look at Matthew 22:15-16 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians
The Pharisees working with the Herodians and Herod finding common ground with Pilate--looks to me like all of these had reason to keep Rome happy.
Boteach wants to think of Jesus' Jewish opponents as mere victims but they had a place in the power structure they wanted to keep, in the face of a proveable descendant of David who had the right to rule governmentally and the miracles of God showed His spiritual position was superior to the Sanhedrin.
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/1/2008 11:24:06 AM
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Lapidoth
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I'm not familiar with the teachers of this either.
But most of us are familiar with the "twisted thinking" that continues.
Jesus was not Roman-friendly in that venue.
We have created a Roman/Greek Jesus.
As we connect the dots with understanding of the "Hebrew Messiah - Yahushua"
then we can discern the difference in these type of subjects.
The only world-friendly about Yeshua is that He gave His own life for us.
To be friends with the world is to be at enmity with God, Which Yeshua never was.
Our cultures, traditions, and religions stem from the Babylonian Order.
Everything about Yeshua is in the "King-of-Righteousness" {Melchizedek} Order.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 5/1/2008 11:37:39 AM >
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/2/2008 12:32:53 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Rabbie Boteach supposes that Jesus is too friendly to the Romans while being too harsh on Jewish leaders. At least, in the Gospels, as we now have them....
When I first saw your post, my immediate thoughts were, "Yeah! Sure! This little peon is going to criticize the Almighty, the Potter, the Creator! Yeah! In your face, King of kings. I'll tell you how you should have done it all, had You just known what I know and had my intelligence!"
I don't know, Wintery. This guy doesn't seem worth answering or even bringing up. He looks pretty foolish to me, if he is as you have point out.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/2/2008 9:27:41 AM
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45degreeN
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God's original purpose for Israel was as a witness to the world. They failed in that mission. Paul took it up again and now many gentiles are Christian. This is partly why some people think that the Christian church has taken over the spot in prophecy that pertains to Israel, it has not by the way.
There were several people claiming to be messiah who offered rebellion to the Romans. In first century the Jewish thinking was the messiah would conquer the Romans and free them from this oppression. Jesus wasn't one of them of course so he might be accused of being friendly to the Romans. Mostly Rome was irrelevant to Jesus' mission.
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RE: Jesus too Roman-friendly? - 5/2/2008 5:01:00 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 45degreeN
Mostly Rome was irrelevant to Jesus' mission.
I'm not being critical here, but unless someone should misunderstand, I woud not say Rome was irrelevant. As Adonai used Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzer and Artax Xerxes to bring about His will, so I believe He used Rome to help proclaim HaTorah(The Word) and Ha Meshiach(The Messiah) throughout the world. The Roman empire provided a system of martial law that made travel and communication over great distances possible and relatively safe. Also, along with the pantheism of Greece, they adopted its rationalism. So when the persecutions occured Adonai's people were able to escape to the four corners of the empire taking Ha Torah with them in an environment where rational discussion was encouraged.
So, though many reject Adonai and even actively oppose Him, everybody brings Him glory whether they want to or not.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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