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Ministry and dating - 7/11/2008 4:06:46 PM
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Leviticuz
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How should single ministers and others in leadership positions in the church go about dating and trying to meet other people of the opposite sex? I find that most people are very uncomfortable dating ministers and preachers. What are the challenges if any some of you have faced with this subject? What solutions have you found that worked for you?
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/11/2008 4:11:34 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2007
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It's funny seeing how different people react about this topic.
My girl supports me 110% in my ministry, but knows that I am still just a regular guy with regular interests. I don't just read my Bible all night every night. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/13/2008 6:17:12 AM
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Purposeful_Life
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What I did [not by design but by default] was get the girl and then went into ministry!
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Nigel
God has designed a purpose/vision/dream for us all - have you found yours?
Learn to D.R.E.A.M.
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 7:22:59 AM
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DaveW
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One of the leadership requirements for congregational leadership was "husband of one wife." (1 Tim 3.2, Tit 1.6)
Better to be married first.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 9:15:25 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1221
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
One of the leadership requirements for congregational leadership was "husband of one wife." (1 Tim 3.2, Tit 1.6)
Better to be married first.
what is "congregational leadership"? is that ALL minister-type positions within the church staff?
so, a leadership requirement would be to either get yourself "attractive"/"appealing" enough to someone of the "opposite sex" to the point that you get married before getting into ministry.......or, just forget about the ministry until that "mission" can be accomplished? If ever? WHEW! sure am glad I wasn't "called" to be a minister of any sort, then....I wouldn't have been able to work until I was almost 30!
thus, that explains the large amount of ministers/pastors out there who were married almost right out of high school (job requirement)....and, thus, have no clue on how to minister to the large population of "single adults" out there....(even lack the ability to acknowledge that they exist)....though, a big congrats to those out there that do....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 12:10:16 PM
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DaveW
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The text specifically states Elders and Deacons. Pastors at the time were part of the group of elders. There were no "youth ministers" as such. And there were very few single adults. Most (both in Jewish culture and Greek culture) were married shortly after puberty via arranged marriages.
IMO, the "... large population of single adults out there..." is a symptom of something wrong in the church.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 12:16:54 PM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
IMO, the "... large population of single adults out there..." is a symptom of something wrong in the church.
please explain...
you were saying that the "large population of single adults out there" was a symptom of something wrong in the church, because of the lack of ministries directed towards them (as there are all other people)...
OR
that the "large population of single adults out there" was a symptom of something wrong in the church...and, that "symptom" of something wrong in the church is WHY there is a large population of single adults out there...
let me know
thanks
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 1:07:22 PM
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DaveW
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An explaination:
The recent way of the world system around us is to push back later and later the age of marriage. The church has gone along with this. I am a boomer, born in 55. A sister of a friend of mine (she is one year older than me) got really depressed on her 16th birthday because where her family came from that was considered an old maid.
The church has not taught its congregants to live as responsible adult christians. The parents in turn have not taught their children how to be responsible adult christians, adopting the mindset that no one is an adult until they are 20 or 30-something. There is also the emphasis on individual salvation and walk with the Lord. Combine that with the biblically unsupported idea that God has only one person for you "out there" and you will have a huge crop of single believers that given other conditions would mostly be paired off already.
So we have very frustrated believers getting married in their late 20s and early 30s after they have become set in their own ways with little or no relationship skills, and then the marriage breaks up. And we wonder why we have a 50% divorce rate.
The NT was written from the perspective of late 2nd temple Jewish culture. They believed it was better for the couple to finish their growing up together. (Mishnah Ketuvim)
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/14/2008 5:05:01 PM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
The church has not taught its congregants to live as responsible adult christians. The parents in turn have not taught their children how to be responsible adult christians, adopting the mindset that no one is an adult until they are 20 or 30-something. There is also the emphasis on individual salvation and walk with the Lord. Combine that with the biblically unsupported idea that God has only one person for you "out there" and you will have a huge crop of single believers that given other conditions would mostly be paired off already.
So we have very frustrated believers getting married in their late 20s and early 30s after they have become set in their own ways with little or no relationship skills, and then the marriage breaks up. And we wonder why we have a 50% divorce rate.
Has not taught it's congregants to live as responsible adult Christians? Does being a "responsible adult Christian" include getting married just as soon as you're legally able to, to the very first person that is willing and able to marry you? (assuming there is such a person available, of course)
I married at age 28, and I considered my self a VERY responsible Christian. I got out of college, got the "entry level" phase of my career out of the way (which included moves to 3 different parts of the country), before finding my wife. At what age IS someone being an "irresponsible Christian" for "refusing" to marry (of course, "refusing" to marry is not the right term, because, he/she could be VERY open to getting married, but, lacks the other willing participant).....
I was in my late 20s when I got married, and not "frustrated" at all....I would have not considered marrying any earlier. Any biblical "decree/directive" to marry any earlier? There are plenty of Christian people who I know who just DO NOT get married? Why? Many reasons....primarily, because they never found anyone that was "right for them".....or, should they have "settled for" something "close enough"?
Regarding the 50% divorce rate.....that has much, much more to do with today's ability for a wife to not be self-supporting in a divorce situation, than anything else. ....in previous years, you had wives that were practically "prisoners" in their marriage...with no where to go, as they typically could not possibly financially support themselves on their own. So, they didn't get a divorce, since the husband was the "provider"..... (and simply endured the husband's drunkenness, adultery, abuse, neglect, etc...etc....)
so, couples marrying right out of high school, and perhaps delaying or forgoing college, is your "answer" to the divorce rate? "Back in the day" (biblical and otherwise), that college education did not exist, and more recently, wasn't quite as essential to providing for your family as it is today.
I fail to see the church's role in this (other than their lack of pushing teens to get married ASAP)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/15/2008 1:36:28 PM
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sgpianoman
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I'm single and a leader in my church. I do often wonder how some single christian girls (which there are basically none in my church) would view someone with a major leadership role in a church.
i like what 1love1God1way said "knows that I am still just a regular guy with regular interests. I don't just read my Bible all night every night".
I never really looked at being a pastor as someone who would HAVE to have a wife (ie job requirement). I mean, i can't really think of single pastors out there. I know God's calling on peoples lives vary and i'm sure he can use a single person in a leadership role (ministering ect) just as much as a married person. jus tmy 2 cents. keep up all the great posting everyone...
_____________________________
In the words of Bill Gaither...."WHY NOT??"
myspace.com/sgpianoman
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/15/2008 2:30:34 PM
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SusieQ567
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Lev...I sooo understand and will be praying for you. When I worked in one ministry, a friend suggested i try eharmony, which i did, I prayed my brains out, and talked to one guy for one month. We dated 2 years, and we've been married for 2 years now. I respect Dr Warren and met someone 15 minutes away that I could have met anyway. We were those people who never thought they would be divorced after 20 years both of us. God is such a redeemer. She's on her way bro...I promise. And by the way, I wouldnt have been uncomfortable dating someone in ministry at all.:)
_____________________________
Susan
Jeremiah 29:11
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/15/2008 2:50:02 PM
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hjemerson
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Well I just left Chrisian college 3 years ago. No We retrun as second caree so we have been married 30+ year I was a dorm parent to about 74 young 18-28 age girls and guy, Many came to school to get the MRS. Funny to some but not to we who have seen what happen when the wedding is over and life really settin . Not all but most of the couple that met and married in the one year or so had the hardest way, So i talked to many on this, sad we would decuss the wait and see, pray and let the Lord lead Maybe it not he right [person wait time will show you. I have several of my college kids walk awy with that and latetr year or so tell they we glad to have waited. Now a have a few that i have kept in close with and they are out of the minstery and living a several life with divorce the next step . They just want and knew thei was the right person. Now to know it was not,
As for the Job dis. Most lot of church will not call a sinlge person as full time for the reason that the problem it can cause I have seen church break up because of the dating ideals.! Some will call a single as asst. only,Few will call a sinlge as a youth for that reason. The abused was high on campus (most wanted to just over look it but we did not we talked and prayed with many on this and most stated they wish thaaaey had waited) Dating is not a easy for a Christian Guy or Girls, It sad the world has this out look on you have to be married or in a relationship to be a strong Adult. I do belive the person that you date will have hardship and if you become one they to have to feel the call to service, So many things have to be though before you even ask the frist date beeing a person going into or is in the Ministery, .I have know girls the were strong wonderful role modle wanting to go on the missin feild but could not get teh support needed, . So bless you as you seek and the one you date they to will have press just because,
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/17/2008 1:24:51 AM
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JGMC24
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i dont believe in dating...just go where God tells you and he will add that lady/man to life according to his will
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/17/2008 7:19:19 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
The text specifically states Elders and Deacons. Pastors at the time were part of the group of elders. There were no "youth ministers" as such. And there were very few single adults. ...
IMO, the "... large population of single adults out there..." is a symptom of something wrong in the church.
Dead solid perfect. Right on. Preach it, O lover of God and His Word!
As Larry Poston pointed out in his classic essay The Adult Gospel, most Christian conversions happen to teenagers, and usually flash-freeze the Christian experience at that adolescent level. Peter Pan, alas, is alive and all too healthy in our culture. Even inside the church.
A mentor who powerfully shaped my life, the ArmEnian Calvinist, wrote a book on the topic, Revolt Against Maturity. It is a sin against God and man to stay locked into a childish perspective.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/17/2008 11:24:21 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 216
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
One of the leadership requirements for congregational leadership was "husband of one wife." (1 Tim 3.2, Tit 1.6)
Better to be married first.
So you say that someone must be married? I do not believe that is what that verse is saying. I think it is talking about polygamy. Paul even talked about that it is ok for some men to stay single.
_____________________________
"What a mercy it is that it is not your hold of Christ that saves you, but his hold of you." - Spurgeon
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 6:37:31 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
So you say that someone must be married? I do not believe that is what that verse is saying. I think it is talking about polygamy. Paul even talked about that it is ok for some men to stay single. It can apply equally to both polygamy and being single. Granted, in its original setting, polygamy would have been the primary application. Today, not so.
The passage also goes on to say that his house must be in order, and askes if he cannot control his own kids, how can he lead in the church? A single man w/out children would be an unknown quantity as to leadership skills.
Yes, Paul (and Jesus) talked about men and women staying single for the Lord's service. That is fine. They do not say they are the ones in congregational leadership.
What about Paul himself? Paul is a bit of a special case.
He was NOT married at the time of his ministry. Was he married previously? Probably. As a pharasee who was discipled by Gameliel the Great (grandson of Hillel), he most likely would have been married shortly after his 12th birthday to a daughter of a pharasee in the school of Shammai. If he was married, did she die in childbirth (not uncommon) , or did she leave him when he came to faith in Messiah? (that would certainly shed light on his comments on abandonment in 1 Cor 7)
It seemed to be the Shammai pharasees who had the bigger problem with Jesus. Either way, he ended up single. And as far as we know, he was never a part of congregational leadership after Acts 13.3.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 7:46:28 AM
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hellochurch
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To pianomansg:
I definitely do not think marriage is a requiement for ministry and aleadership role, ie. i think paul was advocating singleness in what he had to say, -although it prevents trouble in some areas of life, marriage that is, it can also cause trouble.
i know a single minister who was lied against by the mother of a woman who the minister kind of spurned that girls' interests and the mother took it personally too, so when he b egan dating someone, not that daughter, the mother gossipped about him and hurt his career, ie. they lied against him, and hurt him because he did not return that woman's interests, or maybe just because he accepted dinner invites from the family for awhile and then decided not to pursue the girl, the whole family hurt him with some gossip, untrue things but they did it. This is a warning for you as a single to watch out for this kind of thing. Some people are more whole and well balanced than others in your congregation and esp. cultural ways of setting up two single people, some cultures have acceptance of dinner with the family as a pre engagement rite, etc. so be on the alert with who you are dealing with in your congreg. although you said you have no single women. That is a relief in some ways.
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 7:54:45 AM
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hellochurch
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Dear DD: does this mean you are a single minister, looking for a date, even though my email is another family member's and sounds masculine, I am female, single and believe I am called to preach. Can I leave my phone number? (I am joking, only in part, though)
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 8:37:54 AM
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hellochurch
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to JGMC24: You spoke of a bible promise - God will add to you everything when you obey Him, however there is opposition that comes at us as well, that makes it look like this is not happening- and cand discourage us, when someone does come along you must spend time in getting to know them to know if they are right for you or not, hence you must 'date.'
----- to add dating to someone who is preparing their life to work for the Lord, ie. at their school of training, is wrong I think,- it puts too much pressure on the one preparing to serve the Lord, - ministry has enough pressures and I think adding the whole life mate process to that is way too much at that time, especially if the person is young. The Jews instructed their youth when they arranged their marriages, they were prepared for marriage by their families from when they were toddlers. We have little to no prep. in our families I think, comparitively, and then to add the issue of discovering who would be appropriate and if they really would, to a person at the time they need to be focussing elsewhere, ie on their call from God, is just all wrong.
-----another thing, in our n.american culture, u.s. and canada, youth are influenced heavily by media -music and film, and get all the wrong messages, even though they are 'churched' about mate- ing. The females go on their emotions, and 'fall in love'- the males are responding probably to whoever turns their hormonally factory up the highest, visually, and therefore youth is a very bad time for single youth to be depending on themselves to pick a partner. ie. this is when a good looking guy in a nice suit driving a nice car can be the worst thing for a young christian woman, and vice versa, even though raised in church, a young man is influenced by media and by what he sees and the most appealing visually- young woman, who turns his 'crank' so to speak, can be the spelling of the biggest disaster coming, and because they do not have the maturity to look far past this outer surface, even if they might have been educated on this, can they really trust their own judgement in this kind of matter,? ie for a young man in his early twenties, his hormonal push is at its highest, can he trust himself not to allow this to influence too much his decisions, - I dont think he can.
Not that there is anything wrong with good looking people, I am just saying that church youth, whether leaders or not, are influenced wrongfully byt hte culture we live in, and are also being swayed by their newly found, (just a couple years prior) hormonal urges, which may not even be under control yet, and then add to that the way young woman in our society dress, etc. and it is a very difficult thing I think for a young man to even see straight when around some women, let alone be making very important choices. Then add to that the possibility that if they become friends and get closer, they may cross physical boundaries in a dating relationship, and all of this going on while someone is supposed to be preparing themselves for the Lord, ? No NO NO a thousand times no and the wrong timing entirely. Christian seminaries should have the rule that people cannot date, and even perhpas separate the sexes in the colleges so they can never even meet each other there while someone is devoting themselves to the Lord.
This I think would only be kindness to esp. youth preparing to serve the Lord. Families should be involved and arranged, or partly arranged marriages are helpful, if the family has insight, which many might not. I don;t think it is wise for a youth to choose andpick on their own, someone for their life, for youth are too vulnerable at that time in their life, too vulnerable probably to the wrong influences. Thatis why the high divorce rate, plus, they are probably only connecting with God at a rules religion level, unless they have some wonderful modelling in their lives from someone who truly knows and experiences how loving God is, if someone comes to know the depths of the LOVE of God they will automatically begin to live their own lives out of this place, and they only way truly to know that is if they have supernatural experiences with God that are loving, or from the Word itself, and it is hard to pull that out of the Word without truly Spirit inspired revelation preaching and teaching, which is not available most places, and where it is available it is brought into questio and heavily criticized, so this adds up to a difficult sum for christian church youth.
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 9:04:16 AM
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hellochurch
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Dear Leviticuz; (I am always curious about people's reason for choice of name handle, will you reveal why you chose yours and its meaning to you?)- - -I think prayer and fasting, and waiting on the Lord for HIM to supernaturally bring your mate into your life is the way to go. Just like he leads you in other things I think he will lead you in this. Of course you could use some of the biblical ways, ie. I think some single men waited for single women to come into the fields to do some work, and they just rushed in, captured one, and took her home to their tribe(yes this is in the bible! you will find it!)- - - the fasting part would be for you to get closer to the Lord, although fasting can be a distraction, it is to take you away from the natural and closer to the Lord, but it can work opposite for some people, so pray without distraction and trust, and obey the Lord, stay out of sin, (can leaders and ministers sin? why yes of course!) stay out of disobedience, can leaders disobey? yes of course, and release your faith according to "when you pray, believe you have received, and you will have what you have asked for" quote from JEsus, you need to release faith in your heavenly father, when you pray, that He is looking out for you and wants you to have a good mate, and that what you have asked for, He has said Yes and sent to you. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not (yet) seen. You must believe He heard you and if He hears you, that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek HIm, (From personal experience I know He likes you to seek Him not for what you would like, but to get to know Him better, just like us, I would like you to seek me out to get to know me, not for the millions my family own, but just to know me and love me. (He is very rich, so He tends to feel hurt if you go after him for what He can do for you, just like any millionair eor billionaire on earth would be. Some believers can be 'gold diggers' toward their heavenly Father, you know.
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 9:29:48 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1221
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
to add dating to someone who is preparing their life to work for the Lord, ie. at their school of training, is wrong I think,- it puts too much pressure on the one preparing to serve the Lord, - ministry has enough pressures and I think adding the whole life mate process to that is way too much at that time, especially if the person is young.
quote:
Christian seminaries should have the rule that people cannot date, and even perhpas separate the sexes in the colleges so they can never even meet each other there while someone is devoting themselves to the Lord.
That is really up to the individual....I can't speak for ALL young people out there, and say "it's too much pressure on ALL of you".....many (even in secular universities) go to school committed to NOT dating, so they can concentrate on their studies. Others, do so, and it has no effect on their studies whatsoever. My pastor, a very prominent minister known around the world, met his wife while at seminary.
So, when they go to seminary, you just "lock them up" as if they were in a monastery? Even in Seminary, people DO get "out" (we have the great Southwestern Baptist Seminary right here in Fort Worth)....people DO get out to socialize, and see the town (Fort Worth is incredible)....so, regardless of any "ban" on seeing the "opposite sex", it WILL happen....and who am I to say that it was not "divine intervention" that got them two together?
quote:
Families should be involved and arranged, or partly arranged marriages are helpful, if the family has insight, which many might not. I don;t think it is wise for a youth to choose andpick on their own, someone for their life, for youth are too vulnerable at that time in their life, too vulnerable probably to the wrong influences.
That is putting the FALSE ASSUMPTION that our families ALWAYS have OUR best interests in mind. Far too many families take opportunities like that to put THEIR selfish best interests in mind.....
quote:
The females go on their emotions, and 'fall in love'
Isn't anything wrong with "falling in love" with the person you're going to eventually marry.....it's certainly better than having your family tell you, "You're gonna fall in love with, and marry, this person....whether you like it or not".....
quote:
this is when a good looking guy in a nice suit driving a nice car can be the worst thing for a young christian woman, and vice versa
Absolutely nothing wrong with a guy wearing his "sunday best" and driving a respectable car.....though, if my daughter brings home a guy with shabby clothes and a clunker of a car, RED FLAGS will go UP, and we would have a serious talk....
quote:
Thatis why the high divorce rate,
nope....see my post (#10 in this thread for the reason for the divorce rate)....as people get married later and later in life, as they do today, they are also more mature and ready to marry....and, don't feel "pushed" into it with the person that their FAMILY feels is right for them.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 9:36:31 AM
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hellochurch
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dear leviticuz : the rush in and grab your mate while she is working in the field and kidnap her, taking her home to your tribe suggestion of mine, which IS in the bible, was me joking, I forgot to add that, since typing does not show your facial expressions, it was humour on my part, but some men did that, don't forget, another unusual thing in the HOLIEST BOOK.
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 9:58:59 AM
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hellochurch
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to Dave W,to quote you"better to be married first" but I don't think "husband of one wife" means that you necessarily need to be male to be called, nor does it mean that you have to be married, I think the text is saying that as a male, if married, you should only be married to one woman, not have two, (or several thousand)and this may address divorce, I have not dug into studying all that surrounds this text yet.
- First covenant, old testament Deborah was called by God and operated in leadership as a prophetess, for the nation, I believe, she was like in status to Elijah, and she was never male and never was married to one woman, let alone two. She did have a husband, but for ie. we never read that ELijah was married, nor that Elisha was, which they might have been. The o.t. is our pattern for our example on many things, and in the new covenant we have the example of a woman who was called an apostle and who was outstanding amoung other apostles. apostles meant called and sent by God, for the delivering of the Good News, entrusted with God's message of Jesus as the Door into the Kingdom of God.----As our best example though, we have Jesus, who was single his whole life, but was the best Apostle, the Best High Priest, the Best Minister of God, and he had no wife. (Which doesn't mean we shouldnt get married to serve the Lord.)
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RE: Ministry and dating - 7/18/2008 12:21:19 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3816
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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I get what you are saying.
I am trying to say what the text of scripture is saying: "husband of one wife" pure and simple.
edited to add:
BTW, did you know that some ancient Jewish commentators believed that Barak the general was Deborah's husband? There is (in the Hebrew) a connection beween Lapidoth and Barak; both refer to flashes of lightning and could be used interchangably.
See Artscroll Rubin Edition Prophets Joshua and Judges page 137
< Message edited by DaveW -- 7/18/2008 12:28:05 PM >
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