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Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 2:37:05 PM
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hartmann
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My church is experiencing a split right now. One of the doctrines that came to light during this split has been a disagreement over this:
Must an elder's children be saved in order to serve in the position of elder?
(pastor/head pastor/assistant pastor)
This comes from Titus 1:6
"and his children are believers"
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 2:56:02 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hartmann
My church is experiencing a split right now. One of the doctrines that came to light during this split has been a disagreement over this:
Must an elder's children be saved in order to serve in the position of elder?
(pastor/head pastor/assistant pastor)
This comes from Titus 1:6
"and his children are believers"
I am not so sure that the verse is referring to 'Salvation".
(Tit 1:6) If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
When compared to
(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
It would seem to be referring more to obedient children, faithful to the instructions of their parents.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 3:06:34 PM
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hartmann
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Thank you for responding. This is the response I have as well.
Thank you for clarifying it for me. This church split seemed to be more about people thinking an elder should be capable of producing salvation--be it through the flock or his home and as we all know: God produces salvation through the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 4:17:58 PM
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youthrev
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I agree with RC's understanding. The wording of the question seems odd to me, though. Almost as if you are asking if the child of an elder needs to be saved in order to be an elder himself. Reading the replies, it does not appear that that is the question being asked. If it is, however, then yes someone must be saved in order to be an elder.
If the question is, does the household have to all be saved in order for one to be a church leader, the answer could be read either way, but because it is the Holy Spirit's work to convict of sin and bring someone to repentance, then no, I would not say a man's children have to be saved before the husband/father can be an elder. Part of the problem with that is, for instance, my wife and I had our child since I've been in ministry. Should I have stepped out of ministry until she is old enough to understand and respond to the Gospel? No. But I am to work diligently to lead her in light of Scripture, to point her to the cross of Christ, to pray for her to understand, be convicted in God's time, and her heart to be soft enough for her to seek forgiveness of sin and acceptance of Christ.
That may be a good question to ask in this debate. I don't know. "Can fathers/parents of infants and toddlers who do not yet understand, be elders? They're lost, too. Do the elders/pastors/leaders need to step down until their children are convicted by the Spirit?"
It's important to remember that none of us is immune to the possibility of a wayward child. Some of the most compassionate and prayerful church leaders I know have prodigals.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 5:41:49 PM
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hartmann
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Sorry about the wording of the question being weird or hard to read. Yes, I meant the question to be about the elder's children--not the elder himself.
Thanks so much for all of your replies.
I have sent my sister-in-law my exegesis of Titus 1 and I'm thinking that they might say I am reading this scripture through Calvinist colored glasses.
Can't this doctrine become circular reasoning? It might boil down to Calvin vs. Arminian.
They might argue that if an elder is in leadership and has kids that are unsaved, he wasn't truly called by God to lead.
If an elder is truly called by God, God will make sure his kids are saved.
This is the argument I can foresee coming my direction.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 5:45:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hartmann
Sorry about the wording of the question being weird or hard to read. Yes, I meant the question to be about the elder's children--not the elder himself.
Thanks so much for all of your replies.
I have sent my sister-in-law my exegesis of Titus 1 and I'm thinking that they might say I am reading this scripture through Calvinist colored glasses.
Can't this doctrine become circular reasoning? It might boil down to Calvin vs. Arminian.
They might argue that if an elder is in leadership and has kids that are unsaved, he wasn't truly called by God to lead.
If an elder is truly called by God, God will make sure his kids are saved.
This is the argument I can foresee coming my direction.
Look at Samuel's sons. Samuel was one of the most godly men of the OT, yet the behavior of his sons was like the final straw that lead the Jews to demand a king. Also, look at David's brood - and he was called the man after God's own heart.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/14/2008 5:50:25 PM
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hartmann
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Yes, Those are good examples in the OT to look at concerning this issue.
However,
The jobs of the elder/overseer/deacon are different in the NT than they are in the OT. The way God sets up Church Government in the NT is so radically different than the OT, wouldn't you say?
I mean, look at the Levitical Priesthood!
~S
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/15/2008 8:43:13 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hartmann
Yes, Those are good examples in the OT to look at concerning this issue.
However,
The jobs of the elder/overseer/deacon are different in the NT than they are in the OT. The way God sets up Church Government in the NT is so radically different than the OT, wouldn't you say?
I mean, look at the Levitical Priesthood!
~S
If anything, the rules of elder/overseer/deacon are less harsh than the Levitical Priesthood. In any case, are we to only use the OT as a history book without relevance to us? I submit that there is plenty of material that applies to today.
And if that church is as legalistic as you make it sound, they ought to be receptive to OT principles, don't you think?
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/15/2008 10:11:33 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Tit 1:6) If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
So...the children are to be "faithful" and not accused of "riot" or "unruly"....
Problem is....who is to determine what is "riot" or "unruly"....and, what is just "kids being kids"....
I know some churches that, if their 4 year old cannot sit perfectly still throughout the entire church service without making a sound would be considered "unruly"...
anything OTHER THAN "seen but not heard" with regards to kids, for some people, is "unruly".....
quote:
Must an elder's children be saved in order to serve in the position of elder?
So, would a "requirement" of an elder be that he must have kids who are AT LEAST teenagers, perhaps, or older? Perhaps? At what age, would it be determined that the elder's children SHOULD be "saved"?....
Under those "requirements", someone who has a 3 year old, would automatically be "disqualified" from being and "elder"??? since, that child is likely to not be "saved"?
My own children accepted Christ at about age 5 or 6.....I accepted Christ at age 23....my wife? age 13.
Sounds far too legalistic to me. Putting a man-made "time frame" on God's plan for someone's life?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 2:03:44 AM
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BibleL7
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As for the various translations I have the count is 16 say Believers and 12 say Faithful and one says steadfast looking at the Strong's the Greek word does have believing in it or faithful is just how Strong's is not always clear. So it would seem it depends on which version of the Bible they use. Remember that when many of those versions were translated the Roman Catholic Church ruled and was main source of scholars of Bible. And that many even Reformers believed in baptizing infants. If you know someone who reads Greek and has a Greek NT you might ask them about the word used. Personally I would agree that it refers to children that are obedient to parents as I dont believe that children under age of accountability actually have the full ability of choosing to believe or not. Of course many may say they believe then later say they did not believe.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 4/16/2008 2:11:44 AM >
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 6:09:50 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
If an elder is truly called by God, God will make sure his kids are saved. I can see how a Calvinist would believe this, as Calvinists are of the opinion that God selects those who are to be saved, and then does it.
If someone believes that it is within the power of an individual to respond to or reject salvation, then God would not be "making sure" anybody got saved... and neither would a parent.
The instructions for elders and their Biblical qualifications come from a much more submission-oriented society. In that society, a child (even an adult child) who resisted his father's direction in anything (including religious practice) would have been rebellious indeed - disinherited, disowned and possibly executed. A man who had raised a son like that (in that society) would not have had the slightest capacity for leadership.
The same is not true for our society, where children are permitted personal freedoms, and the practice of severely limiting those freedoms would not be 'leadership' at all. A parent who chooses to permit personal freedom (in our society) is not the same as a parent who tried to exercise control in a situation when it used to be expected (back then) and failed disastrously.
What we need to see is the general idea that how someone leads their family is the same way as they are likely to lead the Church. If one of their children is in prolonged, intense, hateful rebellion, we can assess that the parent might have lead them better - and so should not be trusted to lead God's people.
However, in our day, choosing not to mandate your child's religion is not a case the child being in prolonged intense hateful rebellion. It is a case of parental grace, which is a godly characteristic, rather than the contrary.
If we were to imitate with precision the practices of the NT believers, we would have to implement every element of their culture. Instead I consider it much wiser to consider our own culture and bring the Bible to bear in it's essential message rather than its particular practices.
So, an NT Church would not have chosen an elder with an unbelieving child - including an adult child (A small child would have been considered in submission to their father's religion, until they grew up and rebelled, rather than being considered undecided until they came to personal faith.)
We need to decide whether that is an appropriate practice to transfer as-is, or whether the Spirit intentionally made sure that the Scriptures did not contain that exact command, so that we might understand it well and apply it to our own situation. I, myself, think that an elder would have to have an extraordinarily rebellious teen, behaving in such a way that parenting practices might be connected to the behaviour, in order to be disqualified under this 'qualification'.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 6:21:48 PM
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lightshineon
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No, but in truth better act like it.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 7:32:59 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Must an elder's children be saved in order to serve in the position of elder?
Home schooling your kids is great preparation for bearing additional responsibility in the church. Hands-on, consistent, and intentional Christian parenting brings us face to face with our own shortcomings, and the sufficiency of grace. A few decades of this, and the church can see the prospective elder's faith in operation. They can taste the fruits of his life and witness.
On the other hand, if a man doesn't believe in Christianity enough to raise his kids in that faith, if he proclaims by his actions that secular humanism is "just as good as" Christianity as a foundation for education, it can be debated if he has sufficient wisdom to govern the church.
Just thinking ahead. Elders should be leaders. They should pattern their lives by higher values than contemporary sociological norms. They should live a generation or two ahead of the rest of the church. For example, in the 1840s, when slavery was woven into the fabric of American life, the Methodist Church's handbook said that lay leaders could not be slave owners. Today, slavery is not considered thinkable for an American Christian. In another 50 years, the church as a whole will have reached that consensus about public education. Meanwhile, let's ask God to raise up leaders who lead.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 8:56:51 PM
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pbaribeault
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Apparently homeschooling is now mandatory for elders... gonna need chapter and verse on that one RJR.
It makes me wonder who's paying the bills while the man does daily homeschooling... or is it the actions of a man's wife that qualifies him for this ministry?
I'm not of the opinion that using the services of a public school makes it impossible to raise children in the Christian faith. Perhaps there is some strength and advantage in homeschooling, but using that choice as an indication of whether someone is a 'enough' of a believer is absurd.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 9:36:52 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
gonna need chapter and verse on that one RJR.
Deut. 6:1-6. The first and greatest application of the first and greatest commandment is -- raising your children in His Word as an all-encompassing frame of reference. In Biblical thinking, "family" has a discrete identity of its own. A family is more than a loose grab-bag of individuals. The condition of a man's family is his primary credential. IMHO, a Billy Sunday with a million notches on his Bible, but three sons lost to the other team, is a failure as a man and as a minister.
quote:
I'm not of the opinion that using the services of a public school makes it impossible to raise children in the Christian faith. Perhaps there is some strength and advantage in homeschooling, but using that choice as an indication of whether someone is a 'enough' of a believer is absurd.
God expects more of Christian leaders. See Heb. 12:3 or thereabouts -- "and make straight paths for your feet ..." Will those who follow your example profit from it? Or reap life-long regrets? According to the latest research, the decision to place one's kids in public school results in a 90% probability that they will walk away from Christianity soon after leaving home. A leader who validates a foolish choice encourages foolishness in those who look up to him for leadership.
As an optimistic Christian, I don't believe one has to be in some form of "ministry" in order to have a satisfying walk with God. In fact, family trumps ministry when it comes to present satisfaction and long-term effectiveness.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 10:14:05 PM
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pbaribeault
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RJR, you talk like you know God better than the rest of us.
You have both interpreted and applied these scriptures, yet you do not show the humility that is proper for a human being who is attempting those tasks. You present your views as if the result of your interpretation process is just as inspired as the Scriptures themselves.
As a proponent of the priesthood of all believers, I understand that everyone IS in some form of full time ministry. Being faithless to that ministry is not a good way to have a "satisfying walk with God"... Family doesn't trump ministry, family is ministry.
If God has given children, then He has trusted parents to raise them faithfully, in the Word, knowing the love of God. Some attend to that ministry more faithfully than others, but that is for Him who entrusted to be the Judge of. Culture influences us all, including our choices for the education of our children -- there are certainly disadvantages to the public system of education. There are also advantages - you and your pet study do not hold the only answer to that complex issue. I don't appreciate your open statements that a public school choice makes one foolish or faithless. I am neither. You would do well to respect the authority that God has given to each set of parents to make these decisions.
And in any case (even if we were to accept homeschooling as the only wise way to raise chidren) the Bible does not say that an elder must make no foolish choices - it only holds them to the standard that has already been quoted. I hesitate to even imagine who would lead us if no leader was to allow their culture to influence them towards some form of foolishness or another. God has written what He expects of Christian leaders. It is not for us to 'expect more' or add further qualifications - that would be the height of both arrogance and folly.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 10:20:28 PM
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lightshineon
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Well I have three daughters, two have made it through the public School System, and are good, Christian girls, mt youngest is in PS right now, but will HS her next year because some learning problems. My husband is an elder, I feel like my girls have been lights to the world in school. They are not perfect, but, wonderful girls that serve God, and have a great testimoney.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 10:27:24 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please bring this thread back to topic, which is whether elders' children must be believers.
Take the homeschooling debate to the Parenting folder.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/16/2008 10:29:42 PM
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lightshineon
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Ok, like I said earlier, if they are not saved must act like they are in the home.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/17/2008 10:39:46 AM
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hjemerson
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Thank God We were not Judged by What are Daughter has done in the past! She was raised in a christian home Thur public school both were one chose to follow the Lord and be a strong Christian Leader . The second Chose for a few years to go the other way . We were srtong and stay faithful. Now She leads a Christian life ,The Lord used all this I belive to test us and show us ( Parents know I truely understand what they are going thur!!!) You can not and Should not judge a person by what a another person ( family member does) The Lord can chose to have that person lead or step down . I see it sad when a Broad of people that call them self Christians set rules for other Christian to go by, The only set of rule I chose to follow is the Bible and In our home that is the not perfect place .If some want to cast the stone Thy may need to look at they house. (Public School Is a great place for our youth to serve God!)
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/17/2008 8:26:14 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Must an elder's children be saved in order to serve in the position of elder?
Well, if Jesus can be trusted, God Himself had a wayward son. Think about it -- who was the Father in the parable of the prodigal son? See Ezekiel 26 for a matching "parable of a prodigal daughter." Granted, the default setting is for children to follow in the path their parents laid down for them. However, in a fallen world, exceptions test the rule (original meaning of verb "prove" in that prove_rb).
Still, if Billy Sunday had taken a hint when he struck out with all three of his sons, perhaps he wouldn't have blown the church's public credibility for a century by ramrodding a fool's errand -- compelling Americans to be holier than Jesus ("prohibition").
The disorder in Samuel's household (he learned his parenting skills from Eli, after all) led to disorder in all of Israel, and the massive, idolatrous expansion of civil government.
There are other models. Spurgeon was a 7th generation Baptist preacher. My beloved mentor, the ArmEnian Calvinist, came from a dynasty of Christian pastors that reached back 1500 years. Both of his grandfathers died as martyrs.
One more "factoid." During the middle ages, the Catholics instituted clerical celibacy in order to maximize the amount of service they could extract from their clergy. The Jews, OTOH, saw to it that their best rabbis were well married, to intelligent and educated women. The congregation would take up a collection for the dowry if the rabbi was poor. They had a vision for leveraging leadership across multiple generations.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/19/2008 2:06:48 AM
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BibleL7
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hartmann
Go to your churches Bible for help for if the churches Bible says they must be believers then they must be believers according to the church unless your church does not believe the Bible to be its authority.
(DRB) If any be without crime, the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.
(ESV) if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
(GB) If any be vnreproueable, the husband of one wife, hauing faithfull children, which are not slandered of riot, neither are disobedient.
(GNB) an elder must be without fault; he must have only one wife, and his children must be believers and not have the reputation of being wild or disobedient.
This is a matter that your churches constitution and by-laws should deal with and if they say and elders children must be believers then that is a qualification. PERIOD END DISCUSSION.
Now if your by-laws and your churches Bible do not say they must be believers also PERIOD END DISCUSSION
The above are 4 versions of Titus 1:6 you will see that depending on the version it absolutely says they must be believing children. As I stated in ,my previous post 16 versions say either they must be believers or must believe.
If you all want to argue with the Bible is your choice. As for those who say now is a different situation the Word of God does not change and does not adapt to situations. Sin is Sin. Requirements are requirements. Ordinance is ordinance. And if you doubt that parents are supposed to raise their children properly read your Bible. God was so serious about it that He said if a child was rebellious the parents were to take the child before the town present their case and if found true the child was to be stoned to death by the town with the parents throwing first stones. With that I would say the Lord was pretty serious about children being raise right.
And if you wish to argue what I have posted then read your Bibles and take your argument up with the Author.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
PS NOTE if you are having a tough time with the GB version reading just switch the "U" and "V" it is the Geneva Bible and was printed before the change in language in the late 1600s which is why 'W" is called double-U as the U used to be represented by what we now call the V of course there was no J in the alphabet either.
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 4/19/2008 2:23:45 AM >
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RE: Must an Elder's Children be Saved? - 4/19/2008 11:07:27 AM
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pbaribeault
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If the most educated Bible scholars (who work on translations) show that it is inconclusive whether the Greek word (pisteuo, I believe) in this context means 'faithful' or 'believer' (because it does mean both things) I'm not sure that the best plan is to just choose one translation, proclaim it right and never deviate. Perhaps it is simply best to admit that it is not possible to know everything.
Bylaws are not representations of Truth, and a congregation can generally change them if they find them to be unwise or unworkable. Adhering to them rigidly as a group tears itself apart is a recipe for disaster.
You can't argue with the inspired Word of God, but you can certainly argue with translation and interpretation - both of which are done by everyday humans. Argument can be enlightening.
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