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Prepared For the Devil and His Minions - 4/12/2008 4:51:15 AM
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abraxas
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Now and then I see this sort of phrase used to describe Hell. The explanation is basically that God didn't intend Hell for man, but due to the Fall that is where mankind was in danger of going.
How does this square with the idea that God's knowledge of the future is perfect?
If you believe God's knowledge of the future is not perfect, I'd also appreciate reading your thoughts.
cheers, abraxas
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Tough question - 4/14/2008 12:57:17 AM
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abraxas
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And to be honest I don't know how prevalent it is among Christians. Still, I do see it stated now and then, fairly often.
Another one is this--"God doesn't send people to Hell, they send themselves there." Or "they choose to go there."
Like the first one, though for slightly different reasons, this statement also doesn't make sense to me.
Are these commonly held opinions?
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 1:15:26 AM
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Ezra
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Abraxas:
The first thing to be clear about is that human logic is not identical to Divine logic.
God did prepare Hell for "the devil and his angels" (not his minions) knowing full well that these angels would rebel and be unredeemable.
Eternal Hell is for sinners and rebels, therefore all those who wilfully reject the Gospel and reject Christ will find themselves in Hell. Hell (the Lake of Fire) is not inhabited at present, but Hades is, and so is Tartarus (which are also called "hell").
Because God loves humanity, He provided a Lamb who would take away the sin of the world. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. And God also provided the Gospel, so that we would believe on the Lamb of God. Those who believe on Him and receive Him as Lord and Savior, are saved from Hell and receive the gift of eternal life.
Therefore those who will be in Hell are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe God, believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians are saved by grace through faith, and faith is believing and trusting God and Christ and what they have said in Scripture.
God knows the end from the beginning, and He planned all along that redeemed human beings would be "in" Christ and Christ would be "in" them, and ultimately they would be transformed into the likeness of His Son. Therefore He allowed all things to develop as they did, and He also allowed Christ to be crucified for our sins. This is God's logic.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 1:47:44 AM
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1love1God1way
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Ezra,
Good post. Gold star for you.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 4:02:54 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Therefore those who will be in Hell are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe God, believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 10
42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
1 Peter 4
5 |They| shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
All men are sinners and have already been condemned by the Eternal Judge. If we want to have that for which we were condemned pardoned, we must believe in Christ. Otherwise, we will not be pardoned.
John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those are truly happy, whom Christ does not condemn:
Psalm 32 (NIV)
2 Blessed is the man
whose sin the LORD does not count against him
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
John 8
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
1 Timothy 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Mark 2
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 19
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Matthew 20
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 10
10 I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 4:14:01 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
Prepared For the Devil and His Minions
Well, yes, God has always known that all of mankind would be sinners in need of a Savior.
Matthew 25
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Hebrews 9
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1 Peter 1
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Acts 26
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 8:41:30 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Abraxas:
The first thing to be clear about is that human logic is not identical to Divine logic.
God did prepare Hell for "the devil and his angels" (not his minions) knowing full well that these angels would rebel and be unredeemable.
Eternal Hell is for sinners and rebels, therefore all those who wilfully reject the Gospel and reject Christ will find themselves in Hell. Hell (the Lake of Fire) is not inhabited at present, but Hades is, and so is Tartarus (which are also called "hell").
Because God loves humanity, He provided a Lamb who would take away the sin of the world. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. And God also provided the Gospel, so that we would believe on the Lamb of God. Those who believe on Him and receive Him as Lord and Savior, are saved from Hell and receive the gift of eternal life.
Therefore those who will be in Hell are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe God, believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians are saved by grace through faith, and faith is believing and trusting God and Christ and what they have said in Scripture.
God knows the end from the beginning, and He planned all along that redeemed human beings would be "in" Christ and Christ would be "in" them, and ultimately they would be transformed into the likeness of His Son. Therefore He allowed all things to develop as they did, and He also allowed Christ to be crucified for our sins. This is God's logic.
Thanks, Ezra,
This is the exlanation I'm familiar with, and it's the one that got me thinking. Why not just say that God prepared Hell for the unbelievers?
The context I've typically seen the statement from my OP is in discussions on the question "How can a loving God send so many people to Hell?" Which I'm sure you're all very familiar with. The statement, then, is used as a response to that, and seems to be saying, "He didn't--but man condemned himself to that place due to the Fall." When I've read this, it suggests to me that the person can see the problem of a loving God creating Hell with his human creations in mind, hence the explanation that in fact He didn't originally intend it for His creation.
And yet if God sees beginning to end, clearly He knew the ultimate purpose of this place He was creating. Does that make sense?
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 2:43:08 PM
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JimboFletch
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Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
-Matthew 25:41
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 3:34:28 PM
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meerkat
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Abraxas,
I have been thinking about this too.
The lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels.
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
Either you are in Christ and Gods child or you are a son of disobedience.
Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
(A thought here in Revelation where there are 2 marks- Gods mark, and the beasts - those that don't do Gods will, will get the mark of the beast by default. I don't think that it is a physical mark)
1 Corinthians 15:22-27
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET
1Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
Another thought I have been having is the order of resurrection - Are the damned resurrected to life first then thrown in the lake of fire (judged) or (which makes more sense to me) are they thrown in the lake of fire then resurrected to life.
It seems to be contadictory to where God says that his mercy lasts forever and in the old testament his anger is but for a moment
Psalm 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.
The message I get from the bible is that love conquers evil, God commands us to forgive as we are forgiven.
< Message edited by meerkat -- 4/14/2008 3:41:28 PM >
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 6:28:37 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Another one is this--"God doesn't send people to Hell, they send themselves there." Or "they choose to go there."
Like the first one, though for slightly different reasons, this statement also doesn't make sense to me.
Are these commonly held opinions?
Hell is where the Spiritually dead spend eternity. We are born into this world without the Spirit of God...spiritually dead. We remain dead unless the Spirit of God is restored within us through being born again of the Spirit.
The Spirit of God IS life...eternal life. God does not need to send anyone to Hell, they are headed there already. Of course, there is another way, and that is most definitely a persons choice.
Accept the free gift of Jesus Christ, and in him, receive eternal life. He is the only answer to the problem of all mankind...for He alone has Life.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/14/2008 11:54:12 PM >
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Tough question - 4/14/2008 11:55:36 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
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quote:
And yet if God sees beginning to end, clearly He knew the ultimate purpose of this place He was creating. Does that make sense?
Abraxas:
What you are trying to establish is that since God knows the end from the beginning, He knew that many human beings would end up in Hell. That is true, but by the same token that is not because God predetermined their perdition or elected them to be there. That is utterly false.
Hell is for the Christless, but there is not a human being who needs to be there. God has revealed Himself in His creation, He has placed His moral laws in our consciences, and above all He has given mankind the Gospel. Indeed, He has given sinners the gift of His Son. All they need to do is repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
People choose to disregard the Gospel and dismiss Christ. But that is their choice, and if it leads to Hell, then that is what they chose. Conversely, if all believed the Gospel, no one would be in Hell. Did you ever think in those terms?
The important thing for Christians is to propagate the Gospel so that no man may claim that he never heard it. You have heard the Gospel, therefore you are without excuse.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/15/2008 12:19:06 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 12:09:54 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
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quote:
Another thought I have been having is the order of resurrection - Are the damned resurrected to life first then thrown in the lake of fire (judged) or (which makes more sense to me) are they thrown in the lake of fire then resurrected to life.
While this may make more "sense" to you, Scripture teaches that the unsaved dead are first resurrected, then judged, then cast into the Lake of Fire. Thus Scripture speaks of "the resurrection unto damnation". This resurrection is to bring bodies and souls together so that the entire person will experience eternal torment. It is a dreadful thought, hence the need for the propagation and the believing of the Gospel.
quote:
It seems to be contadictory to where God says that his mercy lasts forever and in the old testament his anger is but for a moment
God's mercy is "towards them that fear Him", and for these His anger is indeed "but for a moment". But for the one who rejects Christ "His wrath abideth on him" (Jn. 3:36). It remains on him eternally.
Why is this? Because it cost God His Son to provide redemption for humanity. Those who scorn such a gracious and loving provision put themselves beyond grace and mercy, and bring down the wrath of God upon themselves. It is a fearful thng to fall into the hands of the living God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 1:04:51 AM
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abraxas
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I appreciate all the comments. I'm sorry if I don't reply to all that has been said.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
-Matthew 25:41
Do you understand this to mean that the cursed are considered angels of the devil, or that when He created the fire, God didn't foresee that the cursed would also be sent there?
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 1:21:23 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
What you are trying to establish is that since God knows the end from the beginning, He knew that many human beings would end up in Hell.
Right, so it's not quite accurate to say that God only prepared Hell for the devil and his angels. Especially when used in the context I explained above.
quote:
That is true, but by the same token that is not because God predetermined their perdition or elected them to be there. That is utterly false.
That's not exactly what I'm getting at. But now that you mention it, we could say that at the time God prepared the eternal fire, he had perfect knowledge of who would end up there and who wouldn't. (Assuming He has perfect future knowledge.) I wonder if I'm one of them? I wonder if God had a chat with each of us before we came to this life, and told us what our choices would be and where we would end up for eternity.
quote:
Hell is for the Christless, but there is not a human being who needs to be there. God has revealed Himself in His creation, He has placed His moral laws in our consciences, and above all He has given mankind the Gospel. Indeed, He has given sinners the gift of His Son. All they need to do is repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
People choose to disregard the Gospel and dismiss Christ. But that is their choice, and if it leads to Hell, then that is what they chose. Conversely, if all believed the Gospel, no one would be in Hell. Did you ever think in those terms?
I've pondered that, and I think that you (and some others here) and I just have different assumptions regarding belief. You seem to be voluntarist, while I am involuntarist. So to say "All they need to do is ... believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is actually saying quite a lot!
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 3:25:17 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
People choose to disregard the Gospel and dismiss Christ. But that is their choice, and if it leads to Hell, then that is what they chose. Conversely, if all believed the Gospel, no one would be in Hell. Did you ever think in those terms?
People who are accused of choosing hell, most often don't believe it exists so they can't choose it. What happens is that they fail to choose Christ.
1 Corinthians 2
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 7:38:40 AM
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abraxas
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Hi Ephesians,
IMO "foolishness" is a bit strong. But that aside, I'm really just trying to explore things to their logical conclusions. If they don't square up, well what's a guy to do?
Like I wrote earlier to Ezra, I think the voluntarist/involuntarist divide is at the crux of our differences. That scripture you posted seems to me to favor the involuntarist side of the tracks. What do you think?
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 8:24:17 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Hi Ephesians,
IMO "foolishness" is a bit strong. But that aside, I'm really just trying to explore things to their logical conclusions. If they don't square up, well what's a guy to do?
Like I wrote earlier to Ezra, I think the voluntarist/involuntarist divide is at the crux of our differences. That scripture you posted seems to me to favor the involuntarist side of the tracks. What do you think?
You are probably right, but if you're studying ethics and philosophy, I'm rather ignorant. Three of my siblings, however, would be qualified to discuss this with you. One has his Ph.D. in philosophy; the other two of those three have studied philosophy.
I believe that an all-powerful God can change any person's mind regardless of what they believe. To say that the unbelieving choose hell is just taking it too far. I believe that all humans deserve hell based on their sin nature, however, God Who is all-powerful can change that person's nature. Because of a person's sin nature, he doesn't come to faith in Christ on his own. Others believe that God grants everyone prevenient grace to choose between good and evil. That would be nice, but I don't see the evidence for it. We are all born into different environments and are influenced by different people and situations over which we have no control. So Who is in control? Is it man or God?
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 8:40:11 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
I wonder if God had a chat with each of us before we came to this life, and told us what our choices would be and where we would end up for eternity.
I don't believe we existed before this life. And if God had a chat with us, what would be the purpose of that chat? Would it be to let us know where we'll end up? Would that chat cause Him to change His mind about us? Is salvation based on our choice or God's? It can't be our choice because we aren't omnipotent; He is. I don't think earth is a testing ground, because God already knows the outcome.
God always has had a purpose.
Titus 2
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 8:51:41 AM
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abraxas
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Man, holiday gatherings at your home must be something! 
As for your last comments, I agree that it's a mixed bag, and though I don't see a direct relationship between will and belief, I suspect there is a less direct link.
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RE: Tough question - 4/15/2008 3:41:42 PM
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meerkat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
While this may make more "sense" to you, Scripture teaches that the unsaved dead are first resurrected, then judged, then cast into the Lake of Fire. Thus Scripture speaks of "the resurrection unto damnation". This resurrection is to bring bodies and souls together so that the entire person will experience eternal torment. It is a dreadful thought, hence the need for the propagation and the believing of the Gospel.
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (NASB)
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJB)
it speaks of the resurrection of damnation/judgement for evil deeds not resurrection unto damnation.
quote:
God's mercy is "towards them that fear Him", and for these His anger is indeed "but for a moment". But for the one who rejects Christ "His wrath abideth on him" (Jn. 3:36). It remains on him eternally.
Why is this? Because it cost God His Son to provide redemption for humanity. Those who scorn such a gracious and loving provision put themselves beyond grace and mercy, and bring down the wrath of God upon themselves. It is a fearful thng to fall into the hands of the living God.
I do agree that not believing and doing evil deeds place you under the wrath of God but I also believe that Gods gospel through Jesus is that he was reconciling the world unto himself.
I haven't seen a scripture that says that Gods mercy fails/ends with the physical death of a person.
The scripture that is normally used to defend a position of physical death is the end of Gods mercy is the Richman and Lazarus taken as real not a parable but if it was real the message there would also be that if you have a good life you will be damned and if you have an awful life you get to go to heaven.
In Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (NASB)
it says that those being judged are dead - the dead are being judged.
it is assumed that those are resurrected at that stage but it doesn't say that.
Does this relate to "it is appointed man once to die then judgement"
The wages of sin is death - then judgement - then life (the gift of God)
< Message edited by meerkat -- 4/15/2008 3:47:58 PM >
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RE: Tough question - 4/16/2008 7:36:24 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Right, so it's not quite accurate to say that God only prepared Hell for the devil and his angels. Especially when used in the context I explained above.
Nobody teaches that God "only" prepared Hell for the devil and his angels. However, that was the original purpose, and still is. Human being were not destined for Hell, therefore God provided "the Way" who is Christ. No human being need go to Hell if they will believe God. According to Scripture, God reluctantly condemns people to eternal separation from Him. His great desire is to see all men saved, and none perish.
quote:
That's not exactly what I'm getting at. But now that you mention it, we could say that at the time God prepared the eternal fire, he had perfect knowledge of who would end up there and who wouldn't. (Assuming He has perfect future knowledge.) I wonder if I'm one of them?
You are trying to shift the responsibility for your eternal destiny on to God. Yes, God has perfect knowledge of who will be in Hell. But that does not prevent you from choosing Life. It will be your choice to either repent and be saved, or not repent and be damned. None are elected to salvation or damnation. Those who believe are the elect of God -- elect according to His foreknowledge.
quote:
I've pondered that, and I think that you (and some others here) and I just have different assumptions regarding belief. You seem to be voluntarist, while I am involuntarist. So to say "All they need to do is ... believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is actually saying quite a lot!
As far as God is concerned, He has done everything to provide you with salvation. But as the saying goes "You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink". God will not compel you to choose Him, but don't ever blame God for that. And forget about "voluntarist/involuntarist". When sinners hear the Gospel, they are expected to believe. Indeed, they are commanded to repent.
Abraxas, no amount of excuses will suffice. The Gospel is clear, and it is a command. You can either obey it or disobey it.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/16/2008 7:40:20 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
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quote:
People who are accused of choosing hell, most often don't believe it exists so they can't choose it. What happens is that they fail to choose Christ.
How do you know that they "don't believe it exists"? People use the words "Hell" and "damn" on a daily basis, and whenever the true Gospel is preached, Hell is preached as much as Heaven.
And people don't "fail to choose Christ". They choose to disobey the Gospel and to reject Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/16/2008 8:03:09 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1982
Status: offline
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quote:
I believe that an all-powerful God can change any person's mind regardless of what they believe... however, God Who is all-powerful can change that person's nature.
While God is indeed all-powerful, the Holy Spirit will "convict" and "convince", but will not "compel". The reason being that God want's men to choose Christ freely. And grace is not "irresistable" as some falsely teach. The rich young ruler walked away from the grace of Christ, and the Lord allowed him to do so.
quote:
To say that the unbelieving choose hell is just taking it too far.
Whether sinners choose Hell by default or by conscious choice, the fact remains that the Gospel has gone forth into all the world, but not all have believed the Gospel. Those who choose sin, choose Hell. Those who choose Christ, choose Heaven.
quote:
I believe that all humans deserve hell based on their sin nature,
You will often hear preachers speak of "Hell-deserving" sinners, but the Bible never states it in that way. The Bible says that men's sins separate them from God and the wages of sin are death (physical and eternal). The Devil and his angels "deserve Hell" but God gave humanity the gift of His Son so that NONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
quote:
Because of a person's sin nature, he doesn't come to faith in Christ on his own.
No sinner comes "to faith in Christ on his own". That is why God has given man the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. As the Gospel is heard or read, the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God".
quote:
Others believe that God grants everyone prevenient grace to choose between good and evil. That would be nice, but I don't see the evidence for it.
The evidence is embedded in Scripture. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" is a choice between good and evil, God and idols. This choice was given to Israel when Joshua was their leader, and that choice is given to men today. See my signature.
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We are all born into different environments and are influenced by different people and situations over which we have no control. So Who is in control? Is it man or God?
God is in control, but man must make choices before God. God compels no man to be saved. But He does draw men to Christ, and He does convict and convice sinners to repent and believe the Gospel. The ultimate decision is left to each individual, and this is clear from Scripture.
Cain and Abel were brought up in the same environment and learned the same things about God. Abel believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. Cain did not believe God and murdered his brother instead. So did God compel Cain to murder while He compelled Abel to worship?
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Tough question - 4/16/2008 8:29:16 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 121
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
Nobody teaches that God "only" prepared Hell for the devil and his angels. However, that was the original purpose, and still is.
What I'm saying is that it's inaccurate to say that was its "original purpose" if God had perfect knowledge of its ultimate purpose.
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You are trying to shift the responsibility for your eternal destiny on to God. Yes, God has perfect knowledge of who will be in Hell. But that does not prevent you from choosing Life. It will be your choice to either repent and be saved, or not repent and be damned. None are elected to salvation or damnation. Those who believe are the elect of God -- elect according to His foreknowledge.
I'm doing no shifting. I believe I'm responsible for my choices. That doesn't change the fact that, IF God has perfect knowledge of the future, then whatever it is that I'm going to choose to do is the only thing that I will choose to do. In that scenario, I can't choose anything different than what God already knows I will choose to do. It's hard not to be a bit fatalistic if I assume God has perfect knowledge of the future. In fact it's entirely fatalistic.
So like I was wondering earlier, did he have that chat with each of us before we passed through the veil to this world? He certainly could have if his knowledge of the future is perfect. He could have told each and every one of us exactly what we were going to choose and do in this life. I'll let you decide what that entails for free will but that He could have you can't deny.
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And forget about "voluntarist/involuntarist". When sinners hear the Gospel, they are expected to believe. Indeed, they are commanded to repent.
Again you're speaking from a voluntarist standpoint. Tell me, on what basis should a person "choose" to believe something? Fear? Desire?
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RE: Tough question - 4/16/2008 5:38:58 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
So like I was wondering earlier, did he have that chat with each of us before we passed through the veil to this world? He certainly could have if his knowledge of the future is perfect. He could have told each and every one of us exactly what we were going to choose and do in this life. I'll let you decide what that entails for free will but that He could have you can't deny.
Who passes through a veil to this world? Our existence begins on earth.
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