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Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 12:14:17 AM
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WormHeart
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
Former terrorist suspects detained by the United States were tortured, according to medical examinations detailed in a report released Wednesday by a human rights group.
The Massachusetts-based Physicians for Human Rights reached that conclusion after two-day clinical evaluations of 11 former detainees, who had been held at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan.
The detainees were never charged with crimes.
"We found clear physical and psychological evidence of torture and abuse, often causing lasting suffering," said Dr. Allen Keller, a medical evaluator for the study.
In a 121-page report, the doctors' group said that it uncovered medical evidence of torture, including beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, sodomy and scores of other abuses.
The report is prefaced by retired U.S. Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, who led the Army's investigation into the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in 2003.
WASHINGTON (CNN)
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 8:50:34 AM
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lightshineon
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Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 9:07:29 AM
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IonMoon
Posts: 977
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From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
Well, if we could connect the detainees to the 9/11 attack... you might have an argument. But, even still, isn't the US above this type of thing? Don't we as a nation pride ourselves on pursuing justice humanely?
Tara P
_____________________________
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 9:21:38 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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For me the detainees do not have to be connected with 911 to have an arguement. I think the arguement is that the media and others spend so much time fretting about the abuse of prisoners yet hardly any time at all on the abuse that some of our soldiers receive or even the abuse that the American civilian contractors over there receive. It's a matter of there being no balance between the two, and it makes it seem that the media and others are more concerned with prisoners and Iraqi citizens than they our with US troops and American citizens.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 9:33:16 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
I too feel for those families, but being concerned about torture in one instance doesn't preclude being compassionate towards the families of victims in another. The detainees in Gitmo didn't carry out the 9/11 attacks. Some of them might be part of the organization that did. If they are, they ought to be tried and convicted for it.
However, the fact that our enemies have acted in ways that are appalling and evil does not change our responsibility to act rightly. Right action is not relative. It is this which makes us different.
quote:
For me the detainees do not have to be connected with 911 to have an arguement.
If they weren't connected with 9/11, on what basis do you think the torture was appropriate then?
(Or do you think so, I guess I should ask - don't want to put words in your mouth here.)
I agree that the media does get a bit nearsighted at times (well, lots of times actually). But again, regardless of how the enemy treats American soldiers (and I hope we can appreciate that this is often very very badly), I'm not sure why that would change our moral or legal obligations. Our torturing others doesn't magically become justifiable simply because others don't think it's wrong. I think we're called to a higher standard than that.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 9:49:30 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
For me the detainees do not have to be connected with 911 to have an arguement.
If they weren't connected with 9/11, on what basis do you think the torture was appropriate then?
(Or do you think so, I guess I should ask - don't want to put words in your mouth here.)
I agree that the media does get a bit nearsighted at times (well, lots of times actually). But again, regardless of how the enemy treats American soldiers (and I hope we can appreciate that this is often very very badly), I'm not sure why that would change our moral or legal obligations. Our torturing others doesn't magically become justifiable simply because others don't think it's wrong. I think we're called to a higher standard than that.
No, I wasn't trying to say I think the abuse of the prisoners was appropriate or ok, I know I didn't really clarify that in my previous post though!
What I was trying to say was that I think a lot of people are sick and tired of the media only making a big fuss when it's the detainees or prisoners being abused, or even possibly abused, yet when it is an American soldier or civilian there is not much more than a mention of it. And then usually it's followed up with another MAJOR story breaking of detainee abuse. It's just a little much to take.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 9:55:46 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 284
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
No, I wasn't trying to say I think the abuse of the prisoners was appropriate or ok, I know I didn't really clarify that in my previous post though!
What I was trying to say was that I think a lot of people are sick and tired of the media only making a big fuss when it's the detainees or prisoners being abused, or even possibly abused, yet when it is an American soldier or civilian there is not much more than a mention of it. And then usually it's followed up with another MAJOR story breaking of detainee abuse. It's just a little much to take.
Well, of course. We expect the people we fight to be ... well, evil. It is not right, but that is one of the reasons we fight them to begin with.
When the so-called good guys do the same thing, it is major news.
There is supposed to be a difference between us and them.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 10:02:27 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
No, I wasn't trying to say I think the abuse of the prisoners was appropriate or ok, I know I didn't really clarify that in my previous post though!
What I was trying to say was that I think a lot of people are sick and tired of the media only making a big fuss when it's the detainees or prisoners being abused, or even possibly abused, yet when it is an American soldier or civilian there is not much more than a mention of it. And then usually it's followed up with another MAJOR story breaking of detainee abuse. It's just a little much to take.
Well, of course. We expect the people we fight to be ... well, evil. It is not right, but that is one of the reasons we fight them to begin with.
When the so-called good guys do the same thing, it is major news.
There is supposed to be a difference between us and them.
WormHeart
Well then if we are to expect them to be evil why get so upset about their abuse? And why not cry more over the "good guys" that end up a charred, tangled, dismembered mass of flesh hung from a bridge above a cheering crowd?
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 10:31:42 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
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That was lost on you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
You GOT to be using some kind of sarcasm, that is lost on me.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 10:43:51 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then if we are to expect them to be evil why get so upset about their abuse?
THEY WEREN"T CHARGED WITH ANYTHING-- when are you guys going to get this? A bad guy has charges brought against him. A person who is endlessly detained and interrogated-- tortured-- is a victim.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 10:53:17 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then if we are to expect them to be evil why get so upset about their abuse?
THEY WEREN"T CHARGED WITH ANYTHING-- when are you guys going to get this? A bad guy has charges brought against him. A person who is endlessly detained and interrogated-- tortured-- is a victim.
Why thank you, you did a wonderful job of cherry picking my comments in order to use them in this post. It is much appreciated. I do believe though that I had already clearly stated that I am against these detainees being abused and/or tortured, but here it is again just for the record: I AM AGAINST THE DETAINEES BEING ABUSED AND/OR TORTURED. I am merely pointing out that the uproar over abuse and torture is incredibly one sided.
But if you could please tell me the charges that were brought against the victims of 911 and our troops and civilians that are tortured over there, that might help clear up your side of the argument, since it has only to do with whether or not they have been charged. If I mistakenly overlooked the news articles about there being charges brought against said US citizens then I am sorry, I suppose the media was being fair after all.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 11:13:55 AM
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CatholicCritter
Posts: 145
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Despicable.
Our kids are gonna curse us for today handing Caesar the power that we are now giving him. You don't think he will be at peace with Christianity forever, do you? Scripture says 'do not be afraid' about 365 times (depending on your translation) and yet we roll along bowing to it at every chance.
Just like when we became an abortion nation when Roe was handed down, we became a torture nation when we granted Caesar the power to torture in defiance of God's law. People do not lose their intrinsic dignity, given to them by God, when they commit a crime. So why do we try to justify torture in which we take their dignity from them? Ends never justify means--anyone who's ever read Paul should know this.
_____________________________
http://saintunderconstruction.blogspot.com/
"There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, yet there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." --Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 11:32:04 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1817
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
So, the proper response when terrorists take innocent life is to respond by also taking innocent life. (There are probably innocent people at Abu Ghraib.)
Does this make us terrorists?
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 11:48:10 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
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From: NC via NY
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Is it possible that they were pointing weapons at our troops, or smuggling weapons into the combat zone, or caught planting bombs, or making bombs, found plotting to do one of those things? No, of course not! They wouldn't do anything like that! They were merely innocent bystanders that the evil Americans wanted to torture. Hogwash! There were certainly some reason for detaining them, otherwise every Iraqi would have been detained.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
For me the detainees do not have to be connected with 911 to have an arguement.
If they weren't connected with 9/11, on what basis do you think the torture was appropriate then?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 11:52:57 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7499
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
THEY WEREN"T CHARGED WITH ANYTHING-- when are you guys going to get this? A bad guy has charges brought against him. A person who is endlessly detained and interrogated-- tortured-- is a victim.
I am against torture (rightly defined), and think such actions should cease - but it has nothing to do with 'charging' captured combatants, which the military shouldn't be burdened with.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 11:53:33 AM
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davemiller7
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Incredible, huh? He should be very thankful a 9/11 disaster didn't hit Copenhagen. That might have changed his thinking a little bit.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
That was lost on you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Wow, well report of the 9-11 events show decapitation, body parts floating in jet fuel, burned alive bodies, bodies flinging from buildings and splatting on sidewalks. Terrible things, sorry if I do not cry for these detainees. I will say my tears for the families that lost loved ones on that terrible day.
You GOT to be using some kind of sarcasm, that is lost on me.
WormHeart
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 12:07:33 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1326
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This is xmas for liberals. And it looks about as real as Frosty the Snowman.
The physicians knew nothing of their subjects medical backgrounds.
Sleep deprivation is defined as torture, unless you're doing it to American children in Waco.
Saying unkind things is considered torture.
"They took my underwear," is torture.
Asking prisoners what they thought of their captors is hardly scientific.
This is rumor, joyously spread by liberals.
Al Queda dosen't need a propoganda machine. This is it.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 12:28:57 PM
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davemiller7
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And, if I may add:
Some were made to put womens' underwear on their heads, and some heard dogs barking! How cruel!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
This is xmas for liberals. And it looks about as real as Frosty the Snowman.
The physicians knew nothing of their subjects medical backgrounds.
Sleep deprivation is defined as torture, unless you're doing it to American children in Waco.
Saying unkind things is considered torture.
"They took my underwear," is torture.
Asking prisoners what they thought of their captors is hardly scientific.
This is rumor, joyously spread by liberals.
Al Queda dosen't need a propoganda machine. This is it.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 1:31:03 PM
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tafkam
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Unfortunately, we're allowing the left to get away with all the "torture" talk, when in fact the methods used in interrogating these guys is anything but.
What happened at Abu Ghraib was regrettable, but hardly indicative of our entire military establishment.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 1:32:36 PM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1362
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From: somewhere over the rainbow
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I agree with Sophie here.
It is incredibly one-sided.
When incidents like Haditha make the news and paint our military in this despicable light.... 
I also find it hard to sympathize with the plight of these innocent VICTIMS.
So the high school friend my bro knew that got murdered by an IED while on patrol outside Baghdad probably placed by a person (like the ones that are detained) would have been a victim if they had been captured?
Who's to know if they were captured and brought into U.S. custody?
IIRC, the perpetrators of my bro's friend being murdered were never caught.
They got away with murder.
So they could be one of the hundreds that are detained right now.
Are they all innocent?
Why would they have been detained if they weren't caught doing something they shouldn't?
Are the perps that killed one soldier and injured several others in my brother's unit innocent or guilty?
In this incident, I'm pretty sure that the murderers were never caught.
If other military personnel deployed in Iraq were to catch the guys that did this (of course, they wouldn't know these are murderers of U.S. soliders they caught), are these innocent victims?
I dunno, I know I'm biased here, but I feel absolute NO sympathy for these terrorist thugs.
When I remember how my bro's unit was devastated at the murder of one of their own.
When I think of how I cried over my bro's friend that died.
I can't find it in my heart to look at those detained as victims.
I'm sorry, but I can't.
Call me cruel or unsympathetic if you will, but where was their sympathy for what they have done to families and loved ones of the soldiers that died at their hands?
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 4:10:22 PM
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lpt
Posts: 104
Joined: 6/8/2006
From: Colorado Springs
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Who is "Physicians for Human Rights," and how did they conclude that these detainees were "tortured"?
I'm inclined to believe that our military policies do not permit such torture. I'm inclined to believe that those who want to kill Americans have no problem lying to Americans about having been "tortured."
I can hear the cries from the Leftists: "I support the troops! The ones who torture detainees!"
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 4:35:52 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
What happened at Abu Ghraib was regrettable, but hardly indicative of our entire military establishment.
That is my problem with the report. We know about Abu Graib already and being the resident True-Liberal-Islamo-Fascist-Satanist-Commie I have brought it up many times myself. The problem though with AG is there are some on Crosswalk who have said nothing that happened there is torture. The report would have been more potent to me with its message had it focused on Gitmo or the other places.
quote:
Well then if we are to expect them to be evil why get so upset about their abuse?
What this shows me is one of two things. The first thing is we were never the good guys or really cared to behave in a superior way in the first place. It was just a whole lot of talk about America being great and how we would do the right thing when situations presented themselves. We really aren't and never were that great in the first place. I'm not that cynical.
What I think this proves is the terrorists have already won. I believe we once were that nation but in the name of terrorism we have sacrifised those things because of fear. Things happen and life goes on you don't become hot-headed and freak out on everything over it. Life goes on, you live the way you should because you believe it is right just like a country should. However because of what happened on one day we throw all of that out of that out and the only thing we care about is vengeance at whatever price. We wanted it so bad liberals voted to invade a toothless tiger in Iraq for crying out loud. Imagine that LIBERALS voted to invade Iraq after this event. The attitudes of America are such that we've lost because we've lost what we used to be.
Everyone talks about whether or not it is "September 10th" or "September 12th". Terrorists have been hitting in Ireland for years but life goes on. Terrorists have been hitting Israel for years but life goes on. Lebanon is another place. Iraq since we invaded has suffered more terrorist attacks probably then all other places in the world combined yet the entire country comes out to celebrate their world cup qualifier and there are terrorist attacks. Want to know something? In 2 years they'll do it again if they did qualify and there will be terrorist attacks in 2 years but since it is an important part of their culture they'll do it. Because in the end they won't allow terrorists to deter them from what they want to do and what they believe they should do.
For me one day is the same as any other. Fear isn't going to run my life.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 4:52:36 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
I can't find it in my heart to look at those detained as victims.
I'm sorry, but I can't.
Call me cruel or unsympathetic if you will, but where was their sympathy for what they have done to families and loved ones of the soldiers that died at their hands?
I'm not calling you cruel or unsympathetic; I am calling you irrational on this issue.
If the same thing were done in the US, it would be akin to the police going into a high-crime neighborhood, rounding up random people on the street, and sending them to jail. Most people would call this move unreasonable and a violation of civil liberties and civil rights.
I tend to assume people are innocent unless they are shooting at me or otherwise shown to be guilty.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/19/2008 6:16:47 PM >
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RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees - 6/19/2008 6:06:05 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4/14/2005
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If people really want to get rid of terrorism go to Saudi Arabia and deal with them there. Look at every terrorism list at the list of Nationalities and you will find they are most often dominated by Saudi Nationals.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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