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Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 11:27:25 AM
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Archangel10
Posts: 54
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Romans 6:23 declares "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
If the wages of sin was eternal damnation, then would not Jesus had to suffer eternal damnation?
Is there something here that the "church" is confused with?
Galatians 6:8 states "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting".
Nothing there about eternal damnation!
By the way, the word "Eternal" in the NT has been placed on the greek word 'Aionios' which means "of the ages". Just one more translational blooper by the so-called scholars.
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 11:43:17 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
Is there something here that the "church" is confused with?
Actually, the confusion is on your part. Jesus was sinless and His death was a substitutionary death for us.
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Nothing there about eternal damnation!
You know, most people do not base their doctrine on two verses.
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By the way, the word "Eternal" in the NT has been placed on the greek word 'Aionios' which means "of the ages". Just one more translational blooper by the so-called scholars.
Well, it seems you have proved that the entire Bible is wrong!
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 12:21:13 PM
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Archangel10
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When having a Bible discussion, you need to start somewhere. Are you here to discuss the Bible or make personal attacks...dogs bark at what they don't understand.
I have not proved the Bible = The Word of God wrong...just the translators.
Don't be abstact, isolate the issue.... 
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 1:10:40 PM
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terryjohn
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Christ's suffering as a consequence of our sin did not make him a sinner. His death did not excuse any of us from the eternal consequencess of our sins. His willingness to suffer death at our hands is our shame and that is the revelation. He literally paid because of our sinfulness. You see sin is not about doing bad things: it is only about being seperated from God. That is, we will die in our sinfulness simply becasue we do not want to accept Him whom we are created by and for. The revelation in Christ is that there is more to life than simply satisfying the temporal desires of the flesh which really as we all know do not satisfy us at all.
With regard to, the word "Eternal" in the NT meaning "of the ages". What do you suggest, "eternal life" be translated as? You would have to admit that the translators themselves have told you this meaning and yet they knowingly and wrongly translate it as eternal? I would suggest we give them some credit as they were simply translating the word in a wider context. For we all admit words mean different things, in different contexts, at different times, to different people, for different reasons.
If you suggest it be translated as, "life for a time" then you may have something there for eternal life cannot really be eternal if it only begins once we believe or if in fact we have not eternally existed. You could say it is eternal however considering it is life without end even though it has a definite beginning. Is there any difference between half of eternity and the fullness of eternity if we cannot even comprehend or measure even a fraction of it? Nevertheless, I can't see the word "eternal", for the lack of a better word, being better translated as temporal or a limited period of time for an infinite period of time is still infinite.
Interestingly, a finite universe is as maddening as is the idea of an infinit one.
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 1:15:44 PM
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Archangel10
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In the NT whether you read Life Eternal, Eternal Life, Life Everlasting, or Everlasting Life...the greek is ALWAYS "Zoe Aionios" = The Life of the Ages!!!
Just get out your Interlinear Bible... 
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 1:55:11 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1862
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Archangel10
Romans 6:23 declares "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
If the wages of sin was eternal damnation, then would not Jesus had to suffer eternal damnation?
Look at that verse again: the wages of sin is death. Jesus truly died and went to hell because He became the Curse for us (cursed is he who hangs on a tree - Gal. 3:13, quoting Deut. 21:23). Then by the power of the Father Jesus rose from the dead to prove that death was made dead. Sin had been paid for, so death lost it's power. See the introduction to "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ: A Treatise in Which the Whole Controversy about Universal Redemption is Fully Discussed" by John Owen (Author), J. I. Packer (Introduction). The introduction is truly awesome.
quote:
Nothing there about eternal damnation!
You're right. It was an error to say "the wages of sin was eternal damnation" because it's not in that verse. Why did you say that it was? You correctly quoted it as "death" the first time.
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By the way, the word "Eternal" in the NT has been placed on the greek word 'Aionios' which means "of the ages". Just one more translational blooper by the so-called scholars.
Where are you getting your information from? People who hate God can't hit Him so they try to undermine Christianity by saying the Bible isn't accurate or true (and that the resurrection never happened, but that's not the point here). Look to see if your source is 1) scholarly and has credibility to speak and 2) isn't immoral and out to discredit God by any lying means they can.
Aion, the related word that means "an age" is used in Eph. 3:11, literally '(purpose) of the ages' (marginal) and 1 Tim. 1:17, literally '(king) of the ages' (maginal). Marginal means that it is an alternative meaning but not the main translation.
In Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9, and Tit. 1:2 the Greek word aionios means "of the ages" or is undefined. But the predominant meaning of aionios in which it is used everywhere in the NT, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18 where it is set in contrast with proskairos, literally "for a season." Moreover, it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless e.g. of God (Rom. 16:26), of His power (1 Tim. 6:16) and of His glory (1 Pet. 5:10); of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:12), of the redemption effected by Christ (Heb. 9:12), and of the consequent salvation of men (Heb. 5:9) as well as of His future rule (2 Pet. 1:11), which is elsewhere declared to be without end; of the life received by those who believe in Christ (John 3:16), concerning whom He said, "they shall never perish (John 10:28), and of the resurrection body (2 Cor. 5:1) in which that life will be finally realized (Matt. 25:46 and Tit. 1:2).
Aionios is also used of the sin that "hath never forgiveness" (Mark 3:29) and of the judgement of God, from which there is no appeal (Heb. 6:2) and of the fire, which is one of its intstruments (Matt. 18:8, 25:41, and Jude 7), and which is elsewhere said to be "unquenchable" (Mark 9:43).
The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9 in so not temporary but final.
A third related Greek word is aidios and is translated "everlasting."
So in light of a more scholarly approach, the original post/argument seems to base itself on marginal/alternative translation and ignores the overwhelming use of the primary translation that is counter to the original point.
My sources are W. E. Vine, a well-established biblical scholar ('The Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words,' which I quoted extensively) and J. I. Packard, who as a theologian has been quoted extensively in study Bibles. And, of course, the Bible.
< Message edited by deermousie -- 8/28/2008 2:21:55 PM >
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 2:07:01 PM
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Archangel10
Posts: 54
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It's nice to see you googling deeper for the truth...I will be watching you all.
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 9:04:30 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
When having a Bible discussion, you need to start somewhere. Are you here to discuss the Bible or make personal attacks...dogs bark at what they don't understand.
I doubt you are here to discuss anything. Your purpose seems to be to point out what you think are errors and make jest of what you don't understand. I am not here to discuss the Bible with you actually. But you know that.
FYI, most dogs bark to sound a warning. People make fun of what they don't understand........or fear.
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 9:12:12 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7939
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Archangel10
If the wages of sin was eternal damnation, then would not Jesus had to suffer eternal damnation?
Um, what?
No, no He wouldn't because He never sinned. Thus, He was not a sinner. He accepted our sins on our behalf and became the living sacrifice for us, but never was He a sinner. Had He sinned, it would've made the sacrifice on the cross worthless.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Romans 6:23 - 8/28/2008 9:24:44 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I will be watching you all.
Do you see me now? 
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