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Rome fell - 6/24/2008 8:23:55 AM
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deliveredarling
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Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 9:59:07 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
It is difficult to compare the two, we are too close in time and emotion to America to view it in the same perspective with Rome.
Rome provided a social matrix for the spread of the Gospel. The "Pax Romano" (Roman peace) together with the Roman transportation infrastructure (roads and sea lanes) provided unequaled (until modern times) opportunity to travel freely thus allowing the rapid spread of the Gospel, and the near universality of the languages of the Empire, Greek for trade commerce and culture, Latin for law and government, allowed those spreading the Gospel to communicate more freely. There is archeological evidence of trade with China, the British Isles, the southern parts of Africa, areas which were not part of the Roman Empire contained at least some people (merchants/traders if nothing else) who spoke Greek and brought their ideas with them.
Rome also was a very amoral culture, and with their great successes came even greater excesses.
God didn't have to do much to bring about Rome's fall. All God needed to do was lower the "hedge of protection" and the peoples around Rome who envied the wealth, did the rest.
There may or may not be parallels...time will provide the answer and perspective to allow objective analysis.
My statements on the Roman Empire are very much oversimplified, off the top of my head, and describe things that took place over about 400 years (the "official" date of the fall of Rome is about 476 AD.)
Hopefully this helps a bit,
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 1:45:50 PM
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LCannon
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Well put Berian.(I love our avatar!) Uncounted factors contribute to the rise and fall of kingdoms. Probably the single grace of North America's is our missionary effort and the generosity nature of it's people. God 'used' Rome, and after that the Grecian cultures, to spread the gospel in relative safety using their vast network of roads. We tend to forget that Asia, South America, Africa and even the Middle East is experiencing the greatest influx of Christian conversion. In the last 100 years there's been more conversions(by far)then in recorded history.
Romans 9:18-"So then, He has mercy on whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires based on our response to circumstance 19 yet we still whine when our circumstance isn’t what we think we deserve for disobedience; our own, on another’s part or just life experience, can be uncomfortable when we resist His will. 20 It’s selfish to assume life experience will proceed in our limited imagination 21 for a creator molds vessels designed for a specific use. 22 Some are designed to show even the Glory of God, some to be used and used up, to illuminate and make His Glory known in endurance with patience in wrath prepared for destruction. 23 He does so and makes the riches of His Glory vessels of His obedience which He prepared in advance for that very purpose."
That goes for cultures, too.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 6/24/2008 2:11:52 PM >
_____________________________
"I will behold Thy face for I shall be satisfied when I awake to Thy likeness."
(Psalm 17:15)
"To see God and to be like Him; what more can I desire? I believe it and I expect it."
(CH Spurgeon)
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RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 2:54:40 PM
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thorkraki
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As an ancient historian (I have a doctorate in it), I want to point out that the immoral period of ancient Rome was in the late Republic and early Empire, from about 150 BC to about 200 AD. This is the period when orgies, sexual promiscuity, the gladiatorial games, etc. were at their height.
The emperors and most of the government were Christian for nearly two centuries before the Empire in the West fell in 476 AD. The public immorality of the earlier period was already gone (of course, there was still the same common immorality that any human nation has).
The main reasons for the fall of the Empire were incursions by foreign "barbarian" populations, which originally entered at the invitation of the emperor. This was combined with a collapse of the over-extended military, incredibly high inflation over a period of a century, and pressures on the borders of the Empire.
While some of these may be analogous to some development in the USA today, I do not think that it is a parallel, and I do not think that the USA is in imminent danger of falling.
Thor
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RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 4:11:11 PM
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LCannon
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quote:
And at the same time America has become one of the largest mission fields! Today we actually have more people come here as missionaries than we send out.
However, the missionaries coming here and coming to the immigrate population are largely funded by North American churches and mission organizations.
PS: I remember the 'Ant and the Aardvark' on the Pink Panther show, probably the only redeeming quality at least the most noteworthy.
_____________________________
"I will behold Thy face for I shall be satisfied when I awake to Thy likeness."
(Psalm 17:15)
"To see God and to be like Him; what more can I desire? I believe it and I expect it."
(CH Spurgeon)
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RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 9:02:40 PM
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SonInMe1
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Eventually all powers fall.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 7:58:11 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
The main reasons for the fall of the Empire were incursions by foreign "barbarian" populations, which originally entered at the invitation of the emperor. This was combined with a collapse of the over-extended military, incredibly high inflation over a period of a century, and pressures on the borders of the Empire.
This bears a striking resemblance to America.
I really have to wonder here. If we look at it from a spiritual perspective.. Pride comes before the fall, then we see that Rome did indeed fall, not only because of it's arrogance, but also the disobedience.
We see a similar example with Sodom and Gomorrah, they didn't just fall, they were wiped out.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 5:35:26 PM
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SonInMe1
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There are barbarians invading our country?
I don't think some guy sneaking over the border trying to find work as a barbarian.
Soddom and Gommorah. Its no wonder people are so infatuated with the end times stuff when America...is portrayed in any fashion....as Soddom and Gommorah.
In a free society, some things are going to happen that will not satisfy anyone. While I believe it is our right and responsibility as christians to influence the world around us, politicall and socially, to charatorize America as Soddom and Gommorah is to define it unfairly and to lessen the severity of the social decay of those cities.
There are problems in America and there alwasy will be until Jesus comes back.
I remember the economic and social maliase of the 70's. Nixon, Ford, Carter, the true recession, the drug culture, the "love ins", changing morays. Truly a much more closer resemblence to those famed biblical cities than today.
What happened? A true leader came along. Neither Bush or Clinton came close to the leadership we enjoyed under Reagan. He changed our nation.
It can happen again.
That is the major difference between us and Rome. Our government can change, and does, regularily, without bloodshed.
There are social destructors acting out in our nation. The divorce rate. Single parenthood. The villification of...fatherhood....stay at home mom's...the work ethic....self reliance.....militant pacifism and enviromentalism....and the perversion of christianity by legalists and those who do not believe in the inerrency of the bible.
Rome really fell from within.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 8:28:54 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
There are barbarians invading our country?
I don't think some guy sneaking over the border trying to find work as a barbarian.
LOLOLOLOL. Yes, it was a stretch. The drug runners invading everyday are barbaric though..... Just look at the gangs in LA.
quote:
Rome really fell from within.
We are falling from within too. Look at the moral decline of America. Look at how families so easily fall apart because divorces are a dime a dozen. Look at how frequently children get new daddy's becasue the old one left. Look at how easily God has been removed for fear of offending people. No more remembering the fear of God. No more searching for validation from the Father but let's seek validation from every Tom, Dick and Harry. And then cry and scream because we don't know who our children' daddy really is and how we are going to feed these children. Let's live off the system and then complain that it doesn't do enough. Where has all our brilliance with technology gotten us. Prideful, arrogant and a country still in need of others countries resources. Resources we can provide our selves, yet our government is determined to keep us indebted to foreign oil and giving our land to China in lieu of payments that we owe them. The greatest country in the world is in a debt it will never be able to pay back. And yet the arrogance us Americans so proudly display. One day, and it may be sooner rather than later, we will fall. All the same ingredients that Rome had before they fell, we wear proudly and flaunt it to other nations. You can't tell me that these nations aren't waiting and watching for the right moment to make a move. Financially two other countries have us over a barrel. That should be extremely disconcerting to every American.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 4:21:30 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
Like the disciples Jesus addressed in the Mount Olivet Discourse, we can easily confuse the end of our world with the end of the world. Whenever an age ends, it is usually a messy affair, characterized by monetary inflation, exploding pornography, fascination with the occult, and collapsing courage. Did I mention a lot of pointless warfare? And increasingly grotesque, violent entertainments. (Sorry, CSI and Bones fans!) And new diseases. In the years leading up to Luther's Reformation, a large percentage of Europe's adult population had syphilis.
These are also moments of incredibly opportunity for the gospel, as human plots run aground of divine laughter (see Psalm 2), and people start looking for new ways to understand their lives. During one window of gospel opportunity, Douglas MacArthur begged America to send 10,000 missionaries to Japan. What they got was engineers -- and today, Japanese society is characterized by technical brilliance and hardened secularism.
We did somewhat better when soviet communism lost its grip on the popular imagination. The largest Protestant church in Europe is a Pentecostal congregation in Kiev, founded by an African missionary.
At the moment, the two biggest enemies of Christ's gospel are Islam and secular humanism (political Unitarianism). Let's face it, folks, since 1789 we have not been living in a federation of Christian commonwealths, but under the aegis of a Unitarian superstructure that took power in a quiet coup[1], asserted itself with naked terrorism[2], secured hegemony by the most violent and vicious war ever fought by Americans, since it was on American soil and between Americans, then was launched against the rest of the world.[3]
Which of these two enemies will fall first? I'm betting on for Islam, and studying Turkish in hopes of being prepared for opportunities to share Christ with an audience that is desperate to hear the ultimate Good News.
But the governing ideology of America, secular humanism, also has a date with the ash heap of history. I think God is already laying the groundwork for a better consensus in our country.
Ends of ages are fascinating. So, too, are those rare individuals who lay the foundations for new worlds after the end of their world. When Rome fell, one Roman Christian (a guy from Africa) articulated a new vision of how men could understand their connections to one another and to God that this vision. Augustine's City of God laid the foundations for a Christian social order that endured for a thousand years.[4]
[1] The delegates to the constitutional convention were authorized to fine-tune the articles of confederation. Instead, they created a new national covenant, consecrated to a new deity -- "We the people."
[2] Recall "John Brown" and "Bibles for Kansas" -- boxes of Springfield rifles purchased by a Unitarian church to be used in and against that bleeding state.
[3] Google Smedley Butler's speech War is a Racket, or the phrase "gangster for capitalism." A restless dollar goes abroad. "The flag follows the dollar, and soldiers follow the flag," said this most highly decorated Marine of all our history.
[4] The God-haters call that era "the dark ages," of course. 
< Message edited by RJR_fan -- 6/26/2008 4:31:22 AM >
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 7:07:10 AM
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Gazingstock
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Rome held out a very long time. The average life span of a nation is 250-years. At that point, nations usually fail, undergo revolution, or hostile takeover. A few passages to consider about the fall of nations:
For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: -1Pe 1:24
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. -Gal 6:7-8
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. -Lev 26:18-20
While we do live in the age of grace, we see that the principle is the same in the New Testament as in the Old Testament. The glory of man withers. We reap the consequences of fleshly living. Hopefully in his mercy he will spare the US a lot longer, but we have no promise of that. We are ruled by pride, greed, and materialism about which we know:
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. -1Jo 2:16
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Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 10:05:53 AM
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Bridgitt
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Well, the US calls itself a super power. However, they don't realize that it is by God's grace that it is where it is. Eventually the US will be brought to its knees, like everybody else. All we can do is keep our eyes on Jesus, pray for our country and love our neighbors as commanded.
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RE: Rome fell - 6/27/2008 7:26:07 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
At the moment, the two biggest enemies of Christ's gospel are Islam and secular humanism (political Unitarianism).
I completely disagree.
The biggest threat to christianity is...chrstianity. The perversions of the Truth. Poor teachings. False "revivals". Legalists.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Rome fell - 6/27/2008 9:31:07 AM
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siapa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bridgitt
Well, the US calls itself a super power. However, they don't realize that it is by God's grace that it is where it is. Eventually the US will be brought to its knees, like everybody else. All we can do is keep our eyes on Jesus, pray for our country and love our neighbors as commanded.
Yes, Bridgitt...arrogance will bring destruction towards oneself, even a country. The Bible NEVER condone any arrogant behavior, because it's against Jesus Christ's teaching. God bless.
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RE: Rome fell - 9/19/2008 7:45:02 AM
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deliveredarling
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Just thought we might revive this thread and see if any opinions have changed.
Thoughts on the current crisis our country is facing?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 9/19/2008 10:00:56 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Just thought we might revive this thread and see if any opinions have changed.
Thoughts on the current crisis our country is facing?
Hi DD, have missed you around here.
I think we reap what we sow...and we are reaping it now.
That's about all I have to say on that.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Rome fell - 9/19/2008 4:47:00 PM
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deliveredarling
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I've missed being here. We just got our electricity back last night. 6 days without it! I can only imagine what the people south of me are facing. No pleasure boat here and they don't seem to have very much to look forward too. Ours was an easier adventure comparatively and thank God, we didn't lose what those people have. They certainly have my deepest sympathies and daily prayers!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 9/20/2008 11:48:03 PM
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SonInMe1
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To say we face crisis today is....overblown.
No depression
No threat of invasion...no world threats like Hitler.
The price of gas doubles and we moan.....we have a car to put gas into...a "house" for our car when the vast majority of the world has no roof over their heads.....a job to drive to....roads to drive on...stores where groceries are delivered to daily.
We are a spoiled nation and the biggest threat to us isn't financial...its spiritual. We aren't threatened by terrorists, we are threatened by complacency, apathy and comfort.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Rome fell - 9/21/2008 7:29:36 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
To say we face crisis today is....overblown.
No depression
No threat of invasion...no world threats like Hitler.
The price of gas doubles and we moan.....we have a car to put gas into...a "house" for our car when the vast majority of the world has no roof over their heads.....a job to drive to....roads to drive on...stores where groceries are delivered to daily.
We are a spoiled nation and the biggest threat to us isn't financial...its spiritual. We aren't threatened by terrorists, we are threatened by complacency, apathy and comfort.
_____________________________
I don't think it is overblown at all. I think the majority of Americans expected to continue living the sinful and greedy lives and we are seeing the consequences. Unfortunately, we all will suffer the consequences of it.
Just because the bailout was implemented to "help", doesn't mean our country is out of the clear yet. In fact the bailout will eventually turn around and bite us.
As far as the threat of invasion goes, we do have a prevalent threat among us and it comes from our own government.
I don't disagree that we are a spoiled nation, but thank God we have the choice to be spoiled or not! As a whole our country doesn't rely on daily aid from other countries, we can get medical attention and so forth.
Complacency, apathy and comfort are born out of laziness. Basically, we have allowed others to create inventions to make our lives easier and when they strike it rich, we complain about the wealthy. It's kind of backwards.
We are in the state that we are in because we lost sight of God's place in it all. We allowed the enemy to come in and blind us, telling us that it's ok if we take God out of it. When we as a nation stop fighting against the evilness within, can we expect anything less than a great fall?
I think God only tolerates things for so long and this just may be a lesson in humility for our nation as a whole.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 9/26/2008 6:04:16 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 677
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quote:
What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
Rome fell -- and Christian Europe was born. A Roman citizen and Christian pastor keenly felt the destruction of the social and political order that had been the rock of his cultural identity. But then, Augustine's City of God refocused the attention of the devastated Romans on a kingdom that could not be shaken -- and his "blueprint" shaped Christianity for a thousand years.
God is not through with the USA yet. He is raising up an influential Christian minority even now, who are willing and able to envision better ways to live. A quiet reformation has been underway for several decades, under the radar. And the best is yet to come.
Read my tagline!
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Rome fell - 9/26/2008 10:39:21 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
We are a spoiled nation and the biggest threat to us isn't financial...its spiritual. We aren't threatened by terrorists, we are threatened by complacency, apathy and comfort.
We are in the financial mess b/c the government wanted everyone to have a house regardless of having the means to pay for the home. Rather than have to save for a down-payment, presto-chango one can have a home with no money down. And more than that,one can finance the house for 125% of its value to have "stuff" to furnish the home.
In terms of apathy, I am president of my HOA and the board can do nothing to motivate people to join a community watch or work together to have a festival for the children in the neghborhood.
As a side note, I went to the local library branch to see if it had a copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire," the branch didn't have a copy nor was their copy in the entire system. And Raleigh is a city that has at least five universities.
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RE: Rome fell - 9/27/2008 7:36:31 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
As a side note, I went to the local library branch to see if it had a copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire," the branch didn't have a copy nor was their copy in the entire system. And Raleigh is a city that has at least five universities.
That's interesting, especially since the op post was started back in June!
I guess people are looking to the past for solutions to the future. That can be both good and bad. If it didn't work then, it won't work now. Principals have to be solid.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Rome fell - 9/27/2008 8:04:52 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 677
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
In terms of apathy, I am president of my HOA and the board can do nothing to motivate people to join a community watch or work together to have a festival for the children in the neghborhood.
My beloved mentor, R. J. Rushdoony, spent years as a young missionary ministering to the Paiute and Shoshone nations. It was possible, way back when to live off the hospitality of the tribal peoples for weeks on end. A Turkish friend told me how, in rural areas, until quite recently, you could knock on the door of a total stranger, tell that stranger that "Allah wants to be your guest," and get free meal and lodging for the night.
During the War between the States, the Unitarian political order asserted its supremacy as the only true community. We were no longer a voluntary association of independent sub-units, but a single massive political entity united by force, over the corpses of 600,000 Americans. That notion is wearing thin -- but we've been accustomed for so long to letting Caesar define our community that our own community-building muscles have atrophied. I'm not worried about "America," I'm worried about Parkwood, a neighborhood forcibly annexed into Durham. I'm worried about King's Park International Church. Most of all, most of my attention and concern focuses on my own family, the community I can do the most for, can influence the most.
RJR invented the term "Secular Humanism," and gave that movement credit for its achievements. Secular humanism refocused our attention on the "here and now," the material world of space and time that God has assigned us to, and spent most of His Word ordering.
Secular humanism is also implacably destroying every form of normal, natural, human community, around the world and right at home. Except for the Church. And the Church needs to awaken to its obligations, and resources.
(I'm looking forward to attending an iftar this evening with my family. Over the last three years, we've dined more often with Turkish Muslims than we have with members of our own church.)
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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