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Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/7/2008 8:33:28 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Another poster asked for Scriptures that show that we cannot communicate with the dead.
Please share them and your thoughts here.
Thanks!
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/7/2008 9:13:40 PM
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lmwal931
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i talk to people who are dead (in CHRIST) most every day. and once in a while i get to talk to somebody alive in CHRIST and i get glory bumps.
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/8/2008 1:00:40 AM
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MrFribbles
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Hm... Well, one obvious place to consider would be the witch of Endor, and the summoning of a spirit who claims to be Samuel. Of course, there is much debate as to whether not that spirit was really Samuel's, or if it was a demon, or other nasty, posing as Samuel. Either way, from that example, we learn that talking with the dead (or performing something that leads some to believe that the dead are being spoken with) is something accomplished, at least sometimes, by wicked people.
Another interesting example is the rich man and Lazarus. If that story depicts something that really happened (or at the very least, if it depicts how things really work), then one can conclude that God is capable of sending the dead back to speak with the living to some extent - though of course, in this case, God would not allow it. But, since this story may just be a parable, and not a true narrative, it might be risky basing anything definite on it.
The only other thing that comes to mind is that, at the time of Jesus, there was a mythology of ghosts. Remember how the apostles thought that Jesus walking on the water was some sort of ghost or spirit? So, whether or not ghosts are real, the belief in them has certainly been around for a long time.
Heh, all that to say, a lot of the conclusions you reach will depend on how these passages are interpreted. But I would say it's fairly safe to say that no Christian should attempt to speak with the dead, either on their own or through another medium.
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You're a door without a key,
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You've made a holy fool of me,
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/8/2008 2:03:10 AM
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Rev_22_4
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Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Job 7
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Psalm 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 115
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
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And they shall see his face....Revelation 22:4
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/10/2008 6:57:19 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Heh, all that to say, a lot of the conclusions you reach will depend on how these passages are interpreted. But I would say it's fairly safe to say that no Christian should attempt to speak with the dead, either on their own or through another medium.
De 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
18:11
Or a charmer *, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer *
Necromancer is one who communicates with the dead. If you hold to the commandments of the Tanach(old testiment), I can see your saying that christians should not speak with the dead. However, what would you say to those who call themselves christians and reject the Tanach?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/18/2008 5:05:50 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Myhrrhleine
I would say it's quite possible to do it.
This is why the law forbids it.
Not according to Scripture. There is a great gulf between the dead and us - what is spoken to (if anything) are that from the demonic realm.
As for the witch of Endor relation, this does not mean that it is genuinely possible for witches or mediums to speak with the dead, only that God allowed it in this one exception.
When a person dies, their soul is taken to heaven or hell, depending on whether they have placed their faith in Christ (Matthew 25:46). There is no reason to believe that a deceased person has any ability to leave heaven or hell in order to visit their still living family members.
Any such claim is a demonic deception (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
God declared such practices to be abhorrent to Him and that those who did practice such things in Israel were to be put to death (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-12a).
Satan would like nothing more than for people to dabble in the occultic world of spiritism and necromancy.
God’s commandments regarding these things are designed to protect us from the schemes of our enemy, the Devil, who “walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/19/2008 6:46:53 PM
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schupfNoodle
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As for the witch of Endor relation, this does not mean that it is genuinely possible for witches or mediums to speak with the dead, only that God allowed it in this one exception.
Why would God forbid mediums to be around if they couldn't actually speak to the dead? Doesn't make sense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
When a person dies, their soul is taken to heaven or hell, depending on whether they have placed their faith in Christ (Matthew 25:46). There is no reason to believe that a deceased person has any ability to leave heaven or hell in order to visit their still living family members.
The Bible keeps saying that the dead 'go down'. When Jesus died he 'descended'. The same with Samuel, Saul and his sons.
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/19/2008 7:55:34 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
Why would God forbid mediums to be around if they couldn't actually speak to the dead? Doesn't make sense.
They need not be successful to cause problems. First, they destract people from proper living. Also, they can develop false doctrines based on their proclaimed conversations that can mislead many.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/20/2008 6:43:30 AM
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schupfNoodle
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I believe they can communicate. The medium that brought Saul up is a very good example.
1 Sam 28:7
Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said.
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."
Here are some more verses that says that people did practice it and that we shouldn't talk/pray to dead people.
Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.
Leviticus 19:31
Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/20/2008 3:50:31 PM
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bgwill3
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The only place in the NT where someone living communicated with someone dead, that I can think of, is the Transfiguration, when Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah:
Mark 9
2 Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;
3 and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
6 For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified.
7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
8 All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone.
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, He gave them orders not to relate to anyone what they had seen, until the Son of Man rose from the dead.
I am not exactly sure how this impacts the question/issue in the OP. But I am more than certain that some folks here can elucidate. :-)
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/20/2008 4:51:35 PM
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loco79
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Some versus on preaching to the dead. If there is only heaven and hell then why would there be a need to preach to the dead? Especially the ones that were in prison?
1 Pet 3:18-19
Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1 Pet 4:5-6
Who shall render account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/20/2008 5:52:13 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Loco - this thread isn't about purgatory (or another place besides heaven and hell). If you'd like to get in on that discussion, please do so in THIS THREAD.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/23/2008 6:02:16 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bgwill3
The only place in the NT where someone living communicated with someone dead, that I can think of, is the Transfiguration, when Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah
I am not exactly sure how this impacts the question/issue in the OP. But I am more than certain that some folks here can elucidate. :-)
The Scriptures do not say tha Yeshua(Jesus) summoned Moshe and Eleyahu(Moses and Elijah), nor does He share what was discussed. It also , says that He was transfigured, not that He transfigured Himself. This leads me to believe that this is more of a manifestation or something that Yeshua experienced and not an act of necromancy initiated by Him.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures about talking to the dead - 6/24/2008 11:45:23 AM
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bgwill3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: bgwill3
The only place in the NT where someone living communicated with someone dead, that I can think of, is the Transfiguration, when Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah
I am not exactly sure how this impacts the question/issue in the OP. But I am more than certain that some folks here can elucidate. :-)
The Scriptures do not say tha Yeshua(Jesus) summoned Moshe and Eleyahu(Moses and Elijah), nor does He share what was discussed. It also , says that He was transfigured, not that He transfigured Himself. This leads me to believe that this is more of a manifestation or something that Yeshua experienced and not an act of necromancy initiated by Him.
Oh, I wouldn't define this as necromancy either. Saul and the witch at Endor... Definitely necromancy. Definitely forbidden.
But I do believe that it was an instance in which someone living spoke with someone dead. I am utterly opposed to summoning (or attempting to summon) dead people.
And I also believe that those persons who claim that someone (John the Baptist, Elijah, Paul, etc.) appeared to them and gave them a revelation or some such, are deceived.
Again, I was just mentioning the living and the dead speaking with each other. That it was Jesus, and that he was uniquely glorified in this instance, leads me to believe that this instance was a demonstration, for the sake of Peter, James, and John (and ultimately, for our sake as well), of God's approval of Jesus. Also, that Moses (the Lawgiver) and Elijah (the Prophet) were talking with Jesus, indicates that he is the perfect fulfillment of the old Covenant, and the one to whom the Law and the Prophets pertain.
God gave us the Scriptures, in which he reveals his will. He has also given us his Holy Spirit. To consult the dead, whether for aid (as Catholics do, as well as asking ancestors to 'be with us') or for any other reason, is unnecessary. Scriptures indicate that Christ himself advocates for us in the presence of the Father (1 John 2:1-2), and that the Holy Spirit is our Comforter (John 14-16). We are specifically told how to pray, and I don't recall any passage of Scripture that instructs us on praying to departed persons. What can departed saints and ancestors do for us that Jesus and his Holy Spirit cannot?
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‡ Brian ‡
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