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Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 1:04:58 AM
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ljmac
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I once had a crabby flight attendantette tell me, a paying passenger, not to use the word stewardess. I had another speech copette tell me not to refer to a small mixed gender group as guys. There can't be too many people so easily offended and so determined to stick their nose in other people's business, but one has shown up in Atlanta and is picking on the spineless people who run the city.
Cynthia Good, the co-owner of womens magazine PINK, was so enraged by a sign near road construction that said "MEN WORKING" that she bought a can of spray paint and painted a WO in front of MEN. Then she went hysterical and demanded that the city change their signs. The city couldn't cope with the incessant nagging. Now the signs will say "WORKERS".
Cynthia has calmed down.
Stop the discrimination!
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 1:46:16 AM
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dramagal
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I heard her being interviewed on the radio (Michael Medved's show, I think) and she kept mentioning her magazine over and over again. So, I wonder if her real motive was to publicize her magazine.
_____________________________
Who let the wild donkey go free? Job 39:5.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 7:29:47 AM
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Starbucks880
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I've heard of her. I am all for stopping sexism, but things like that just go into ridiculousness. There are plenty of real issues facing women today that she should be focusing on. But as dramagal said, maybe it was a publicity stunt.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 8:03:14 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3438
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Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 10:32:01 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10985
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
Hormones for one....
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:03:43 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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In honor of the Emmy nominations yesterday I nominate Cynthia Good for "Best Performance by a Drama Queen"! All in favor say aye!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:07:02 AM
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Zhi
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Well, y'know, if you go through life with a huge chip on your shoulder, you're bound to find something I suppose. I find it ironic that she changed a sign she found sexist into a sign that was sexist toward her gender. hehehe. Publicity stunt, for sure.
Since a couple of you are asking about actual issues, sexism does still exist but actual incidents I've run into tend to be few and far between, when I'm being honest. But, if I were actively looking for it I'm sure I could find more excuses to be mad at the world all the time, because as a woman engineer, I work primarily with men, and sometimes people say stupid things.
One of the issues I've seen has to deal with college admission. I went to an all-engineer college, which had a 20% female population. In order to try to get more females into the college, they had lower admission standards for women. This had two unfortunate effects. First, some of the women they did let in weren't ready. It's a very very tough school, and the admissions office giving you a break most certainly did not mean that any of the professors were going to give you a break... so some of the women who got in simply were not ready for it. I am convinced that many of the women there (including some of my suitemates, who I did my best to help) would have benefitted greatly by being told by the school "you're not ready yet. You need to take the following classes from a less-difficult place, and then we will let you in."
The other issue is that the guys knew that admission standards were lower for women, so on group projects, they were convinced that the women assigned to them would be basically useless. It didn't matter if my personal scores would have given any of them a run for their money and that I didn't need the lower standards, I still had to work twice as hard to prove myself. I couldn't really blame the guys for that attitude because, well, they were kind of right, and I had several of them tell me after a group project that they were uncertain at first but now they had great respect for me and if I ever needed a group project partner again they would love to.
Work has been easier, as the guys appear to take the general attitude that you'll either prove yourself or you won't in the first few months, so wait and see. Most male engineers and techs I've worked with are very nice guys... they tend to be chivalrous as well, in opening doors and such for you, but I've always thought that was a nice thing to do and not sexist (I'll open a door for a guy if he's carrying something also, so *shrug*). Since I knew they respected me as an engineer anyway, I don't think there's a point in trying to make a federal case about door opening, or someone saying "you guys" since it included me anyway. They don't intend to be sexist, if you can do the job they don't care what gender (or even what species, probably) you are.
I *have* had a manager I had never seen before (older gentleman) on the elevator to work tell me how nice it is of me to bring my husband his forgotten lunch. I blinked and told him I worked there. He looked a little embarrassed when I was introduced as the lead UI coder at a project meeting half an hour later. I doubt he'll put his foot in his mouth like that again. hehe
The worst is probably "men" stores. Auto parts guys can be awful. I had one, who had merely gotten the previous guys in line their parts without questioning, start callling me "honey" and telling me he wanted to test the Nissan alternator I had brought in needing a replacement. I told him I tested it, but if he wanted to test it, knock yourself out. He made a big show of testing the thing (verrrrrry slowly), and showed great surprise when yes, it was broken. I finally got annoyed and told him that, given my EE degree, I could have built one from the component parts by now, so get me another Nissan alternator. At which point he brought me a Mazda alternator. *sigh* My husband probably would have had the right alternator and been out of there in 5 minutes.
Home Depot is the same way. My husband and I have realized that if we need help with something, he needs to pretend he's not with me for a few minutes while I stand in the proper aisle looking helpless and confused. Generally there's a clerk/helper there within 5 minutes asking if I need help (which they almost never do if my husband is standing there looking confused, or if both of us look confused. hehehe) When I'm obviously pregnant, it's more like 2 minutes. hee.
Incidentally, I've worked with women who do have a huge chip on their shoulder. I didn't want to be around them either. :P I think a small sanity check "did they MEAN to offend me?" is very helpful in most scenarios. I also think that insisting on special treatment just continues to propagate what sexism is out there. Most guys I've met, by nature, want to treat women in a respectful manner, and sadly, some of the ways they do so are starting to be considered "sexism" (opening doors, etc) when the intent is admirable. I am also truly baffled as to why gender-specific words (waitress, waiter, stewardess, etc) that are merely an observation of someone's actual gender are taboo, when used in a perfectly neutral manner. Until someone comes up with enough globally-accepted gender-inspecific pronouns to make the use of gender words entirely unnecessary, you're going to occassionally be addressed in a way that specifies your gender. The fact that people are capable of observing that I am, in fact, female, is something I find somewhat reassuring and not at all insulting. ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:32:09 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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A long time ago before I met my intelligent, beautiful wife, I went on a date with a girl to a restaurant. On the way there she ranted and raved how women should be treated equal and no deferential treatment because they can take it (which I agree) but she was so militant in her feminism (it had a real sexist view of men behind it) that when we got to the doors of the place with her arriving first, I stood behind her and didn't move.
"Aren't you gonna open it for me!" she said in an exasperated tone.
"I thought since you got to the door first, you'd open it!" I answered.  was the look I got.
We ate dinner in a tense silence. I thought about splitting the tab (to further the point I was making about her true beliefs) but I thought that might make her go ballistic so I just paid the bill and took her promptly back to her home. Needless to say, there was no second date!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:36:13 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1428
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Hehe, you don't know how many women I've taught to knit/crochet/stitch who refused to learn it from their grandmother because it wasn't properly feminist. Now that it's popular, they've decided that's silly and they want to learn.
I figure if your feminist ideals are so shaky that picking up a couple of sticks and a string destroys them, you probably have other issues. ;)
Honestly, I don't want to be treated "equally". I want to be treated with respect, and given expectations based on my capabilities. I think everyone should be treated with respect, and given expectations based on their capabilities, and then we wouldn't be so silly about all this.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:42:19 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hehe, you don't know how many women I've taught to knit/crochet/stitch who refused to learn it from their grandmother because it wasn't properly feminist. Now that it's popular, they've decided that's silly and they want to learn.
I figure if your feminist ideals are so shaky that picking up a couple of sticks and a string destroys them, you probably have other issues. ;)
Honestly, I don't want to be treated "equally". I want to be treated with respect, and given expectations based on my capabilities. I think everyone should be treated with respect, and given expectations based on their capabilities, and then we wouldn't be so silly about all this.
My son is learning to crochet from his mom and that OK. I'm a liberated male. 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:43:59 AM
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Zhi
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I've taught a few guys too. ;)
Knitting was invented by men, y'know. ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:51:19 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
In honor of the Emmy nominations yesterday I nominate Cynthia Good for "Best Performance by a Drama Queen"! All in favor say aye!
Aye!
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 11:52:53 AM
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mapachito13
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Fishing nets I imagine. The fine motor skills knitting takes is beyond my not-so-nimble fingers. I did crochet a funky looking scarf once!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/18/2008 6:53:49 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3438
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Want sexism?
Stay home to take care of the kids...as a man.
My wife's company has international offices. If you think women are second class citizens here...try the middle east It took a long time for my wife to get any respect from them...at all.
This harkens back to women and power. Its not so much about equal rights which have pretty much been guarenteed by law. Its about power. Its about being in control. Its about...not...submitting.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/19/2008 1:26:07 PM
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Matt Smith
Posts: 59
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Austin, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
I, for one, would be happy to... because you always make such a good faith effort to understand other people's perspectives.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/19/2008 1:30:02 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
O.K.
My Gynecology Nurse Lied
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/19/2008 9:08:22 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3438
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From: my mom by God
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
O.K.
My Gynecology Nurse Lied
Someone's personal blog...?
Wow.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/19/2008 10:24:37 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
O.K.
My Gynecology Nurse Lied
Someone's personal blog...?
Wow.
Calling The Daily Kos a personal blog is like calling the Space Shuttle an airplane.
You asked for an example, I gave you a valid one.
If you don't like the source, perhaps you could include a list of your "approved" sources with your requests in the future; Saves time & correspondence.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 2:01:52 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3438
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From: my mom by God
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There is a difference between thin skinnedness and true issues.
Everyone runs into these situations all the time. Somebody with an agenda. Someone wanting to take advantage.
Sure mechanics take advantage of women, just like some hairdressers with that extra cleavage get a bigger tip from men.
My question, possible poorly stated, hopefully tried to address the changes that have happened through legislation and the...fact...that these issues shave been addressed and if you can prove true damages, you can sue or get someone arrested for discrimination.
I remember when women could not get certain jobs and were truly treated poorly in the workplace. Times have changed and there are laws to address this problem...
how much more do you want?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 6:33:06 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
There is a difference between thin skinnedness and true issues.
Everyone runs into these situations all the time. Somebody with an agenda. Someone wanting to take advantage.
Sure mechanics take advantage of women, just like some hairdressers with that extra cleavage get a bigger tip from men.
My question, possible poorly stated, hopefully tried to address the changes that have happened through legislation and the...fact...that these issues shave been addressed and if you can prove true damages, you can sue or get someone arrested for discrimination.
I remember when women could not get certain jobs and were truly treated poorly in the workplace. Times have changed and there are laws to address this problem...
how much more do you want?
I work in a rather large factory, and I will admit that "times have changed" - We've had 2 employees dismissed for Sexual Harassment recently, amd the incidents were not related (different shifts, different work areas, two totally different [I knew them both and boy were they different from each other!] people).
The reason I bring this up is that I've been around factories for over 30 years, and I noticed that these 2 terminations did have several things in common - They were quick, they were quiet & they were because of the guy's mouth; No physical threats.
Not being a H.R. person (Human Resources) I'm not up on the current business news regarding discrimination, but it's been my opinion that it's not that easy to quote:
(you can) sue or get someone arrested for discrimination That lawsuit well has run dry, and police have better things to do. Besides, if a company is proactive (and can prove it), that's a Grand Slam to any Judge. Not trying to belittle sexual harrassment laws, but these 2 fellows at my plant might just have been sacrificed on the alter of good business practices.
It's about perception & power. If a woman feels empowered, she will not feel shy about sharing what she perceives as abuse. So, the next time one of you guys say it's "hormones" or it's "over-sensitive" you might want to consider the last time you felt powerless.
It has been my experience that some of the weakest men have been the most abusive of women; The most self-doubting & afraid men the most snide and bullying toward women.
I can tell just by reading the above posts the men and their character flaws -
(You know, I started my list but deleted it. I'm sure God has great plans for you and why should I spoil it! )
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 9:15:52 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Please...tell me the issues that face women today.
O.K.
My Gynecology Nurse Lied
TaoPoohBear, I'm not seeing how this is sexism. She is a woman. He gives her advice based on the acknowledgement that she is a woman. Should he instead talk to her like she is a man? That would be weird.
If he gave her advice of abstinence and carefulness, that is a good thing, something more people need to hear. Just because she didn't like it doesn't make it sexism, does it?
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 9:43:17 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 459
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
The worst is probably "men" stores.
My wife had the same problem when she was looking for a pistol. Several gun stores kept steering here away from what she wanted to look at towards tiny .22 automatics. She would tell them she was not interested and eventually leave. After 2 or 3 sotres doing this, she found a clerk that listened and she got what she wanted.
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 7:16:41 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3438
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
You know, I started my list but deleted it. I'm sure God has great plans for you and why should I spoil it! )
This sounds a little....accusatory.
My wife's company, owned by people who are "high ups" in the democratic party, is very conscience when it comes to sexual harrassment and descrimination and several people have been fired....but the owners are both racist and sexist.
My point is...today if there is a problem and damages can be demonstrated, there are solutions. Any more laws would be..redundant and politically motivated. I am sure sexism happens at work. I am justy not certian....other than hurt feelings, there are damages incurred.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Sexists at Work - 7/20/2008 8:02:42 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1806
Joined: 5/23/2006
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quote:
My wife had the same problem when she was looking for a pistol. Several gun stores kept steering here away from what she wanted to look at towards tiny .22 automatics. She would tell them she was not interested and eventually leave. After 2 or 3 sotres doing this, she found a clerk that listened and she got what she wanted.
that also happened to us when she went in to buy a 357 magnum...after going elsewhere to buy one I took her back to the store and showed the manager what we bought elsewhere and why.
my mom was a woman born before her time...I remember times when she had the manager giving her stuff for free after she complained about sexist treatment
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) so I can get the kids to school, pick them up, take them places they need or want to go and run my business. At my son's school I see more and more fathers doing what I do so that male taboo is going away. So I can definitely relate. 
At least, that's how I hear them decribe it!