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Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 2:24:27 PM
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imit8him
Posts: 340
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Hey guys,
This is a bit of a sticky/controversial question, since it's very hard to question another person's actions within their family (esp., if we do not know the whole story behind things)....But I'm going to ask it anyways, based on the current scenario as is:
Let it be known, however, that it is not a good situation to begin with because it involves gossip and possibly other issues, such as envy.
On the other hand, though, it can also be a general issue/topic that we can discuss that moves beyond the specifics of this instance and addressses a more general question of:
"Should kids (teens actually) have to work for money?"
....The latest controversy out of my church has been that some of the parents and even teens are a bit upset/jealous/confused? (I'm not sure which) that a church deacon's children, who are teens and even one in college now, do not seem to work for money they receive. The parents pay for their tuition at college, their clothes, their bills, entertainment etc. (they even have cars), while many of the working-class families have children/teens who are required to work frot eh same things.
Let's put aside the fact that this is gossip (I personally think this should have been handled more privately if people had issue with it and not talked about openly), is there something wrong with raising kids who do not have to ever get a job throughout their lives and into college?
Many of the parents and teens have looked with disapproval at how "easy" this deacon's kids lives are and how easily the kids get money and go on trips and the like. They feel it is unfair and that in one instance, a particular child even seems irresponsible/arrogant, because of it (this last part, I unfortunately have some agreement on, because I do think that particular child is quite lazy from my encounters with him, but I cannot presume to know the whole story outside of those encounters/first impressions. I've only heard him say he wouldn't want to work at such a low level place like McD's or Wal-Mart and seems to make fun of people in situations who work those types of jobs....though he is still a teen and probably just immature).
Does this seem to be a legitimate concern (even if it is done in gossip and with possible envy from others)? What do people think about giving their kids (teens) money without them doing anything in return (no chores)? There seems to be a divide in our church between the middle-class/wealthy families, who seem to do this, and the working-class ones. It was a hot debate and stirred up a lot of bad feelings and I did not like how it was handled, but it was still a topic I thought was important to discuss.
-Imit 
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 2:35:33 PM
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metoo
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I personally think that it's good for all kids to work and develop a work ethic. I think they appreciate what they have more and take better care of things. Kids who pay for all or part of their car tend to have less accidents than those who have it handed to them.
I'm more concerned about something in your post, however. It seems like from what you are saying is that all the deacons are richer but there is a broader range of people who attend the church. Do you think this is the case? I think the leadership, especially lay leadership, should be representative of the church as a whole. (There should also be representation of the broad age groups within the church...at least from 30 on up.) If indeed, the deacon's are the wealthy ones, why do you think this is?
I think if the leadership were more reprsentative then this issue may still exist but it would be more "class oriented" (working class, wealthy, etc.) instead of leade's children vs. non-leaders children.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 2:44:57 PM
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meg4
Posts: 209
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From: North Georgia
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I agree with metoo. I think all teenagers should have to work for their spending money and for at least most of their automobile expenses, etc. If they are not doing household chores and/or caring for younger siblings while parents are working, then they need to have a job so they can see what real life is about. I think parents who give their children everything they want without expecting them to work for it are hurting their children, because it will be a lot harder when they get out on their own.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 4:17:32 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1559
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I think it is no one's business except for the parents.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 4:19:55 PM
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bluestone
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From: Saturn
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It is no one's business how the parents keep up their kids.
If this person makes enough money to keep up their kid's in this fashion, why should the church people be concerned?
If the church leader questioned how a member spent money on kids, he would probably be run out on a rail.
Jealousy is a bad thing.
_____________________________
If the witch at Endor were alive today, I wonder if she would be a road side fortune teller, or an
"extreme prophetess " in an emotion based signs-and-wonders church.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 4:27:31 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 199
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quote:
ORIGINAL: imit8him
Does this seem to be a legitimate concern (even if it is done in gossip and with possible envy from others)?
Nope. I didn't get from your OP that ALL the Deacons ( I assume that is the same as Elders) are better off than the average church member, just this one.
But still. I'd say this one comes down " not my yard, not my business".
Let's try a few more and see how we like them: Should a Deacon home school his kids if almost no other church members do?
Should a Deacon allow his children to date if most members of the church are into "courtship"?
Should a Deacon allow his kids to stay up until 9:30 if the average church bedtime is 8:47?
I would think that , eventually, your pool of willing Deacon candidates is going to get smaller and smaller if your church leadership doesn't nip this type of thing in the bud real fast.
It just isn't a "sin" to give you kids a bigger allowance than the guy sitting next to you in the pew.
How a family pays for college expenses ( barring some illegal activity) is also none of anyone else's business.
< Message edited by 10SNE1? -- 3/18/2008 4:33:31 PM >
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 4:53:42 PM
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imit8him
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: metoo
I personally think that it's good for all kids to work and develop a work ethic. I think they appreciate what they have more and take better care of things. Kids who pay for all or part of their car tend to have less accidents than those who have it handed to them.
I'm more concerned about something in your post, however. It seems like from what you are saying is that all the deacons are richer but there is a broader range of people who attend the church. Do you think this is the case? I think the leadership, especially lay leadership, should be representative of the church as a whole. (There should also be representation of the broad age groups within the church...at least from 30 on up.) If indeed, the deacon's are the wealthy ones, why do you think this is?
I think if the leadership were more reprsentative then this issue may still exist but it would be more "class oriented" (working class, wealthy, etc.) instead of leade's children vs. non-leaders children.
Hmmm...As for whether the deacons/leaders (elders, pastor, deacons, etc.) are richer than the rest of the congregation members, I did not think much about this particular divide, but yes it would be true. We seem to have a significant socio-economic gap within the church. The entire group of elders/deacons/pastors are part of the wealthy group, which consists of doctors, lawyers, businessmen types...and then we also have another group who barely scrape by on their income (some would be flat out poor).
But to me, that did not stand out as much, because usually the more educated types, who are successful in their careers have had more time, leadership training/ability, education, and expereince to be in those positions to begin with. Many of the less fortunate families, along with their kids, barely scrape by in society and they also have little time to serve those positions (most are working several jobs just to get by). I think the lower-wage earners have not really expressed discontent over not being in those leadership positions.
Rather there's just some general divide and resentment I think between church members about ht e lifestyles of those who have plenty and those who are less fortunate. And some of it involved how these kids were spoiled and allowed to have so much without having to work.
I don't think it's the teens fault, because they do what they are told they can do/not do. It's the parents who structure their lives. So if the parents give them what they want and they don't have to work for anything, that's their choice. From what I understand, many of the wealthy parents want their kids to have advantages in life and they perceive working at these jobs as distracting their kids from school or hobbies and what not. They feel everyone wants their own kids to do well and have all these things. But it is true in looking at all the leaders' kids and all the wealthy church goers that none of their kids work or pay for college or for their cars or entertainment, etc. And all of the lower-income families' kids have to work (some several jobs). So that's where I see it as a class divide and difference in lifestlyes.
The only other area that was related to this was that there was some misunderstanding on the part of the wealthier families and their kids that the lower-income members did not care as much about church/spirituality, due to less attendance to events. But that was where people wre upset, because they felt "How can we attend, when we have to work?" ...Just another set of frictions. 
-Imit 
(Personally, having grown up working all my life, I did find it to be valuable in retrospect, but I did also hate it growing up, because I felt i was missing out on so much. ...In the end, it taught me to work hard in life rather than take things for granted - though the same could be theoretically learned without working too I suppose.)
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 5:34:14 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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putting all of the wealthier kids to work would not solve the frictions between income classes in your church. it's a heart issue. it's about spiritual maturity.
mutual respect. unity. etc etc.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 7:19:43 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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Joined: 4/11/2005
From: WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
I think it is no one's business except for the parents.
I most heartily agree. It is no one's business what other parents do for/with their kids. Being in church leadership has nothing to do with it, as long as they are living within Biblical guidelines.
_____________________________
Matthew 18:1-6...anyone causes one of these little ones...to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
My Blog
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 9:10:40 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11680
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The problem in your church is not how the deacon is running his household, but the jealousy and gossip within the church.
It needs to stop.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 9:47:11 PM
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Karaboo2
Posts: 1310
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From: Ontario, Canada
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I agree with the above. It is at the parents discretion whether they provide for all the wants or whether the kids have to work for their wants. That being said, I think it is great if kids can develop a strong work ethic early in life, but all is not lost if they don't develop one until they are out on their own.
Ps103 also hit the nail on the head. The problem comes from the jealousy and gossip -- that can bring everything crashing down in a heartbeat!
_____________________________
Kara
"I am not here. I am lost. I have gone to find myself. If I should get back before I return, please ask me to wait!"
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/18/2008 10:33:31 PM
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Closie
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My grandfather went to work in the coal mines at age 12, dropping out of school in grade 6. My dad finished high school but had to work all through, not for spending money but to help support the family. So he was determined that no matter what, his kids would not work in high school. I see nothing in scripture to suggest that his thinking was flawed in someway. We were given an allowance (with the expectation that we'd tithe it). My siblings and I are Christian, mortgage paying citizens who have been gainfully employed all of our adult lives (well I went back to school for a couple of years while in my 30s; one brother was laid off for 6 months but had a great severance package). So I say mind your own business.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 7:26:58 AM
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10SNE1?
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Hi Closie,
Thank you for sharing your story! My grandfather was a coal miner in Virginia and my mother dropped out of school after the 8th grade in order to help care for her chronically ill sister. She shelved her dream of becoming a nurse.
She and my father, together, built several successful business and did very well financially.
My mother was determined that my brother and I would have the opportunity to attend college and, therefore, they saved enough money for each of us to attend.
My husband and I also have/are paying for our children to attend college and, HORRORS!, we also provided each of them a car to drive when they were sixteen.
My kids are hard-working , productive members of society. I often need to take deep cleansing breaths when I read the words of certain frequent posters on this site. Same of the same people who claim that parents who pay for college and cars are raising irresponsible, spoiled brats don't hesitate to ( and encourage others to) grab all the government goodies that they can.
My "favorite" post of all time had to be the young mother who happily shared that she never dreamed that they were legible for WIC until she looked into the income standards.
Sorry, but if you never dreamed you would be legible...you just aren't that bad off.
Yep, mind your own business.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 8:16:39 AM
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Biblefreak
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Yes, they should have to work. How eles are they going to learn about the world and how to manage their money? Our Pastor's oldest Son is working 3 jobs. He is a very driven teen and has a very good and reachable goal to meet.
_____________________________
"I'm blessed, I must confess
My heart is pounding in my chest
Cause this love's the best
I'm just a love addict"
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 9:11:27 AM
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P31W
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What is this really about?
Do the deacons take up the tithes and offering then divide it among themselves?
For some reason I can't help but think that somehow the people in the congregation work hard and give their tithes and offerings to leaders who "spit it up" and have a standard of living that is above the congregates. They use the money collected in the church to increase their personal lifestyle rather than to do the kingdom's work.
If that's not the "real problem" here then the real problem is jealousy.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/19/2008 9:18:07 AM >
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 9:45:45 AM
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Szaftoo
Posts: 939
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From: So. Calif.
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How another family chooses to raise their children is none of your business and I find it sad that some in your congregation have made it theirs. It shows jealousy and envy on their part and their gossiping will eventually affect your church.
I find it sad that believers behave this way. This is more the behavior of the world.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 11:13:07 AM
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rainbowtvp
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I am assuming these are unpaid positions. In that case, no one has any right to worry about how other people spend their money. Yes, church leaders must not be engaging in obvious sinful behaviors- ie it might be an issue if they were spending money on prostitutes & gambling!
If they are paid positions, then it is still most likely not a problem. I think paid ministry positions should provide the same income for their level of education & experience that other professional jobs in that are receive (IOW- a fair wage). Now... they also have the opportunity to generate more wealth as long as it is not interfering with their duties (ie a pastor might sell a novel) and their spouse might work... So, their household income may well be above that of others in the congregation. If they manage their money in such a way so that their children need not work- still only their business.
Just as it would be if they spent more on any other item- clothes, food, etc. than most people in the congregation. If that is the thing they feel like spending on, that is their perogative.
quote:
ORIGINAL: imit8him:
I don't think it's the teens fault, because they do what they are told they can do/not do. It's the parents who structure their lives. So if the parents give them what they want and they don't have to work for anything, that's their choice. From what I understand, many of the
It is no one's fault! It is just life. If the wealthier people in the church make enough for something they need or want and their money has been earned through moral activities, than that's okay. They should not have to give up their favorite foods, for instance, because someone else can only afford spaghetti!
It might be a problem that only the wealthy are in those positions... I have never been in a church where that was the case. But it could just be that is who is available. But IMO, the church leadership should reflect the congregation.
Tara P
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 12:15:16 PM
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meg4
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From: North Georgia
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I said earlier that I thought it was good for all teenagers to work, either at home helping with chores or at a job, but that doesn't mean I would ever tell anyone else that their kids had to work. That is up to the parents to raise them in the best way they see fit. Everyone's situation is different. And it shouldn't matter one bit whether or not the parents are church leaders.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 1:14:15 PM
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rainbowtvp
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Yeah- I think this topic has two components:
Should kids work- even if they don't need to financially?
Should church leaders be better off financially than the general congregation?
Tara P
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http://www.geocities.com/hallscola67/KyliesHomemadeShopIndex.htm
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 1:22:59 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 1783
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From: Saturn
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A good general rule of thumb is to pay pastors what the average person in the church probably makes.
If kids make very good grades, and are active in music, sports, etc. and you can afford it, I see nothing wrong with allowing them to do chores for some spending money, and not hold down an actual job. My rule of thumb is: "Your schoolwork is you job, and I expect excellent grades on my investment in you."
Also, if a kid made terrible grades, I would want him/her to concentrate on schoolwork, not bagging groceries.
_____________________________
If the witch at Endor were alive today, I wonder if she would be a road side fortune teller, or an
"extreme prophetess " in an emotion based signs-and-wonders church.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/19/2008 1:30:08 PM
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APZR
Posts: 694
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
I think it is no one's business except for the parents.
A BIG fat DITTO from me!
Now if the Church is paying them for services that are not being received, that's different.
_____________________________
Ya can't keep trouble from visitin, but you don't have to offer it a chair.
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RE: Should Church Leader's Kids Have to Work? - 3/21/2008 9:52:13 AM
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Row1
Posts: 170
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kind of two issues here:
should kids work? and the gossip issue.
i am gonna throw in my opinion abt kids working.
one of my goals for my children is to build enough wealth that they can do whatever they truly want to do with their lives, independent of earning money to pay bills, have clothes, and have a place to live.
this goal is a long way off, but i may achieve it.
hopefully, in the future, my kids will not have to work because they will have wealth.
they will have to figure out a way to take this wealth and keep it growing, and/or keep living off the interest it hopefully will earn year by year.
at the same time, I have toraise them to be decent, God-fearing people. They need to understand what it means to make a commitment to another person, other people, or an organization. They need to be dependable. They need to contribute. They need to have empathy for other people, etc.
All that kind of stuff.
Most of us learn this from 1. pitching in with our families then 2. pitching in at school, then 3. pitching in at work. For some of this, we find these values in the Bible as well.
If I raise my children well, they should have good values. Whether they ever work or not, you should be glad to have them as neighbors, as coaches on your children's teams, as members of your church, etc.
As for the kids of this deacon, that is what I would expect - I expect that they have volunteered at VBS at some point in their childhood, etc.
If the church holds a fundraising car wash, they should be washing, not driving through with their car.
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