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The Christian and free will. - 9/11/2008 10:00:49 PM
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SomeFineDay
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God did not make us robots, he allows man to say yes or no to him.
That is the case in his offer of salvation, we can even accept it or reject it, same thing with following his rules or not. Their might be consequences, but unsaved man can choose to go the wrong way as he/she desires.
Christians are bought with a price, but we still have our free will.
Does God respect a Christians free will to do as we wish in our life?
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 3:45:26 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1900
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quote:
Does God respect a Christians free will to do as we wish in our life?
Augustine said something like love God and do as you please. If the Lord is our love, His will is our will. He wants us to choose our captivity to Him for that is the path of true freedom.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 5:24:34 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1602
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Your question is straight forward: "Does God respect a Christian's free will to do as we wish in our life?"
The simple straight forward answer is: Yes.
As Christians, we have the free choice to accept His invitation to love Him, to listen to and to obey His Word, and to do good in life and love our neighbour.
We also have the free choice to turn our back on Him, live our lives as we wish and ignore our neighbour in favour of our own lifestyles and pursuits. But if we did this - we wouldn't be Christians would we?
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 7:35:46 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1989
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I don't know about respect, that word kind of bother's me in this usage. "God is no respector of person's."
Allows, IMO, is more comfortable.
Yes, He allows us to choose Him or not choose Him. He gives us His Word with the choice of using it or not using it.
No, we are not robots and some would have us thing that we are and it drives me nuts!
God made us living,breathing , thinking, feeling humans. To think He would have created such magnificent systems that work together, all for us to walk around as if in a zombie state driven by an unseen force.
(I don't think that came out the way I hope it sounds  )
It makes no sense that we use this body as His creation to interact with Him, yet that is all we can use it for, because the rest of the time we are solely driven by the Holy Spirit.
When Adam fell, that is when choice was created in this world. (actually the decision to eat the fruit). It didn't stop as an example, it continued forth as we see all throughout the Bible, people's choices and the consequences.
Nope, no robot here, just a person who chooses Jesus and does it so imperfectly.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 7:46:21 AM
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timf
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The Christian and free will.
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
A question can be asked as to how "free" free will is. A case can be made that there is no true "freedom" until one draws near truth.
John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
People can argue as to whether God draws the unbeliever through election or whether the unbeliever chooses to believe. However, it seems fairly clear that many of those who claim to be Christian clearly choose not to abide in the word of Jesus. It is sad to see "Christians" use their "free will" to choose not to be free.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 11:12:12 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SomeFineDay
God did not make us robots, he allows man to say yes or no to him.
That is the case in his offer of salvation, we can even accept it or reject it, same thing with following his rules or not. Their might be consequences, but unsaved man can choose to go the wrong way as he/she desires.
Christians are bought with a price, but we still have our free will.
Does God respect a Christians free will to do as we wish in our life?
To be God given free will, it must be respected by God. Or else it not free will, but only semi-free will.
The simplest explanation I have seen appears in A.Z Tozers, "the Knowledge of the Holy"...
"An Ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.
On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.
Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us hope and firm assurance of future well-being."
Works for me.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 1:26:31 PM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
As Christians, we have the free choice to accept His invitation to love Him, to listen to and to obey His Word, and to do good in life and love our neighbour.
Doesn't the potential of an eternity in Hell influence the choice?
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 2:12:40 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1602
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KaseyTom: "Doesn't the potential of an eternity in Hell influence the choice?"
No, not really. If someone doesn't believe in God then it follows he doesn't believe in hell. So the potential threat doesn't exist as far as he is concerned.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 2:19:44 PM
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raivyne
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God gave us free will. He wants us to choose to love and obey Him. He won't force us, but know this - if you choose not to follow Him He is hurt to the core.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 9:18:23 PM
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Oldwing
Posts: 145
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This raises in me the question of 'What would Jesus do?' I believe there are many right choices in most situations and many wrong choices. Now, choosing the 'right' choice that cleaves to Biblical scripture is a difficult thing and requires a lot of study. Believe me, I know as a baby Christian that, I study scripture regularly before making the 'right' good choice.
Confusing? It's OK. I get confused a lot too. :)
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These things I command you, that you love one another. John 15:17
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 9:24:36 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1900
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quote:
To be God given free will, it must be respected by God. Or else it not free will, but only semi-free will.
The simplest explanation I have seen appears in A.Z Tozers, "the Knowledge of the Holy"...
"An Ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.
On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.
Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us hope and firm assurance of future well-being."
Works for me.
Me too. Thanks, URF. 
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/12/2008 9:57:25 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: SomeFineDay
God did not make us robots, he allows man to say yes or no to him.
That is the case in his offer of salvation, we can even accept it or reject it, same thing with following his rules or not. Their might be consequences, but unsaved man can choose to go the wrong way as he/she desires.
Christians are bought with a price, but we still have our free will.
Does God respect a Christians free will to do as we wish in our life?
To be God given free will, it must be respected by God. Or else it not free will, but only semi-free will.
The simplest explanation I have seen appears in A.Z Tozers, "the Knowledge of the Holy"...
"An Ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.
On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.
Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us hope and firm assurance of future well-being."
Works for me.
Peace
I love that book, it is awesome, it is on my top 5 list of must reads.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/13/2008 10:17:54 AM
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jn1010lf
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Hello SomeFineDay
Let me say this. One never develops friendships under duress. It's usually because of the free will of each one. How about loving a woman that ends up in marriage? There's free will in the hearts of both, right?
What I'm saying here is that love is synonimous with freedom. Force and cohersion is synonimous with evil. So, God, being love, can do nothing else but give man a free will. Then both can be fulfilled.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/13/2008 12:42:24 PM
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Theophile2
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As one who prefers the way Reformed Theology explains the means and ways of God, I would offer the following as food for thought:
Reformed Theology sees the Bible as clearly stating that everyone begins spiritually dead (e.g. Ro 5:18-19, Eph 2:1-5, etc.). If we begin this way, if follows that a dead man can't get up off of the coroner’s slab, walk over to the doctor, and say “I hear you have a cure and can bring me back to life. I want you to do that for me.”
Within the natural world, humans are spiritually separated in separate “circles” (for lack of a better metaphor) to the left and to the right, much like they will be at the end of time. These "circles" do not have open doors, there are no bridges from one circle to another, there is no way for a human in his or her own power to traverse from one to the other. There is nothing any human can do of him or herself that can change what circle they find themselves in, as will be seen shortly, and what circle they find themselves in is awakened within them through the preaching of the Word of God (Ro 10:14)
On the left are the “goats” (Mt 25:32-33) … those who are spiritually dead (Eph 2:1-5). EVERYONE starts here, and called “natural man.” (1Cor 2:14, 15:44, 15:46; Ro 3:23; Ga 3:22; Eph 2:3).
Within the “Natural Man” circle, human beings are “spiritually dead” in their “old man” state (Ro 6:6; Gal 2:20, 5:24, 6:14; Eph 4:22; Col 3:5, 3:9-10) … being dead means you cannot do anything yourself – you can’t get up, you can’t walk, talk, think or believe, spiritually speaking (Mt 12:34).
Within the “Natural Man” circle, some grow worse and gravitate toward obviously evil activities (Ro 1:28-32). Some learn to behave in polite society, and gravitate over to the “I’m a good person” side of the line (Mt 19:17-22) – but this does not mean that they are regenerated to everlasting life in Christ (you being evil, know how to give good gifts – Mt 7:11). Theologians call this civil virtue. It is not being saved.
Everyone who is in the “Natural Man” circle, has the freedom of will to do whatever is according to their nature … their natural man, unregenerate, spiritually dead nature. (Ro 1:26, 28-32; Eph 2:3). Understand that the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God, both end up being influential in a person’s decisions, those decisions being made in accordance with the person’s nature (Ex 4:21; De 2:30; Josh 11:20; 1Ki 22:22; Pr 16:9; Jn 12:40: Ro 1:21-32, 9:18; 1 Pe 2:8).
Everyone who remains to the left when it is time for the harvest are considered “Tares” and “dead branches” and “goats” and all found there will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (Mt 13:25-40, 25:41; Jn 15:6)
On the right are the “sheep” … those who are spiritually regenerated. Only those whom God picks up out of the left and places in the right (“translated” or “transferred” Col 1:13; Rom 8:28-30, 1:6-7, 9:11, 9:23-24; Acts 13:48; Gal 1:15; Eph 1:9-10, 3:11; 1Th 5:9; 2Th 2:13-:14) are found here, and undergo a process called “sanctification.”
Within this “Sanctification” circle, human beings are “spiritually regenerated” in their “new man/new creation” state. (1 Cor 6:11; 1Ti 4:5; He 2:11, 10:10; 2Ti 2:19; Php 1:6; 1Pe 5:10)
Within the “Sanctification” circle, some grow worse and backslide for a time (Mat 15:11-32; Lk 22:31-32), but never lose the gift of salvation given to them by God (Jn 6:37-40; Rom 8:15-17, 23; 2Co 1:22, 5:5; Gal 4:6; Php 1:6) through a faith in Christ that is also given to them, that not of their own (Ro 3:24-25; Eph 2:8-10).
Within the “Sanctification” circle, some learn to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and gravitate toward walking in “the way” / walking “in the Spirit” / “bearing much fruit” etc. that exhibits a life wholly submitted to Christ, such as could be found in the lives of Mother Theresa or Billy Graham. This is not to say they are super-beings or without sin (1Jn 1:8), rather they have learned to die to themselves daily (2 Cor 5:15; Ga 2:20).
Everyone who is in the “Sanctification” circle, has the freedom of will to do whatever is according to their nature … their regenerated, new creation, spiritually alive nature that is upheld, strengthened, guided, and motivated by the Holy Spirit to please God. (Ro 8:1, 4; Ga 5:16, 25; 2Pe 1:4). Understand that the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God, both end up being influential in a person’s decisions, those decisions being made in accordance with the person’s nature (Ro 8:28; 1Jn 4:19).
Everyone whom God places on the right (Col 1:13; Eph 1:4), at the time of the harvest are considered “wheat” and “olive branches” and “sheep” and all found there will be awarded an inheritance in the Kingdom of God. (Mt 13:25-40)
HOWEVER … notice two things:
First, that those in the “natural man” circle who have learned to be civilly virtuous may be difficult to differentiate at time from those in the “sanctification” circle. Likewise, those in the “sanctification” circle who are backslidden may be difficult to differentiate from those in the “natural man” circle (1Ki 18:21; Josh 24:15). It can be difficult to tell the difference.
For this reason, secondly, there is a comment about both Tares and Wheat being in the same field (Mt 13:25-40). Although natural man and regenerate man are in different “worlds” (circles) spiritually, physically they are in the same world, and can find each other in the same job environment, or even in the same church together. When wheat and tares are immature plants, it is very difficult to tell the difference. But when they are full grown and it is time for the harvest when they each bear their own fruit according to their nature (Mt 7:17-20; 12:33), THEN the tares will be cut down and the wheat will be harvested.
The reason Jesus says to wait to the end when HE does the harvest, not allowing other stalks of wheat to do the harvest, is because we humans do not know what is in another person’s heart. Only Christ can see what is in someone else’s heart (1Sa 16:7; 1Ki_8:39; 1Chr 28:9; 2Chr 16:9; Ps 7:9, 139:2; Pr 15:11, 16:2; Jer 11:20, 17:10, 20:12; Acts 1:24; Heb 4:13; Rev 2:23) and what His good and perfect timing is to pluck someone from the natural man circle and plant them in the sanctification circle – if at all. Therefore, we are admonished to bear with one another (Col 3:13; Rom 15:1-2; 2Co 6:6; Gal 6:2; Eph 4:2, 4:32), and realize that our ONLY job is to speak the Good News, allow the Holy Spirit to plant, water, and harvest, and God will sort people out in the end. This does not mean that we cannot admonish people for their bad behavior (1Cor 5:9-13; Ga 6:1), but what we cannot do is judge people in terms of whether or not they are going to heaven or hell. Only God knows that (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 23:39-43).
The Westminster Large Catechism has a plethora of scripture references to back up this line of thinking and do so in a much more comprehensive manner.
The Westminster Large Catechism
Institutes of the Christian Religion
Charles Hodge Systematic Theology
Blessings to all ... “preserve unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in both” (- Rupertus Meldenius, circa 1627)
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/13/2008 2:18:54 PM
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Walker311
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I consider free will a gift while I'm sure there are others who do not like it or embrace the concept.
Lucifer is an excellent example of a being created by God who once had free will but chose poorly. Of course Satan is doing his own thing now but he is after all, limited. He can never again choose God.
We have this lifetime to choose. Up until we lose our life or our minds, we make choices every day and the most important choice that a soul can make is to choose Christ.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/28/2008 4:11:16 AM
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lightbeamrider
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Adam and Eve had free will. We have a distorted version of that. Perhaps we have selfish will as opposed to the free will of Adam before the fall. God desires all men to be saved but what can He do? Some believe our so called free will trumps God's desire for our salvation. In effect the free will of man stops God in His tracks. All of God's creation is under the Sovereignty of God except the free will of man. We have a natural tendency to put God within our limited concept of space and time. Augustine did not. To Augustine God is outside time. Perhaps within the realm of God all events are present. Time as we know it exists for His Creation who inhabits space and time. Otherwise all events would happen at once. With time all events happen when they are suppose to happen. If this is the case (and i believe it is) then our so called free will only brings us to the destination of God. God is Sovereign over all His Creation including the free will of man which He Created. God has mercy on some and others get justice. Time is nothing more than the gateway to eternity. To quote Matthew Henry in his commentary of Gen.1:1-2.....''In the beginning, that is, in the beginning of time, when the clock was first set a going: time began with the production of those beings that are measured by time. Before the beginning of time there was nothing but that Infinite Being which inhabits eternity. Should we ask God why He made the world no sooner, we should darken counsel by words without knowledge; for how could there be no sooner or later in eternity?" As most should know Matthew Henry wrote all this before 1706. Many, including Paul were chosen from the womb...(from eternity?) to accomplish certain things for God. Their life on earth had already been pre determined with their free will intact. Now many of the sola scripture types will dismiss both Matthew Henry and Augustine along with the early christian writings as not rising to the level of scripture. One can carry that whole sola scripture thing too far. Augustine was brilliant, much of what he writes about goes far beyond my limited understanding and there fore has to be studied (not read) slowly. God's choice from eternity, is based on His mercy alone and not on any foreknowledge He has. Time is not a constant in the universe as we know it. Time is relative to circumstance. Reading Einstein both velocity and gravity effect time. For example; a spaceship traveling at near light speed for six months in space is the equivalent of 700 years on earth.
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RE: The Christian and free will. - 9/28/2008 9:59:06 AM
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wearhisname
Posts: 24
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us hope and firm assurance of future well-being."
Awesome
I agree Awsome
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