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The story of Job - 10/3/2008 1:31:05 PM
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KaseyTom
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I just read the first few chapters of the Book of Job.
The behaviour of God in this story does not seem at all consistent with the God most of you describe, nor with God of the New Testament. Why is this?
Also, who are the sons of God? Jesus and who else?
1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
< Message edited by KaseyTom -- 10/3/2008 1:38:49 PM >
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 1:52:05 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1258
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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Job 1:6 -HEAVEN-Our next scene opens in heaven, and what a scene it is. Neither Job nor any of the other people in this book knew that this took place at all. But this scene will enable us today to understand and interpret some of the things which happen to God's people. I don't say that it is the total explanation, but it is a part of it.
Now this is the scene in heaven. The sons of God, His created intelligences, come before Him. I must confess I know very little about them. I think they are numberless, as numberless as the sand on the seashore, which means you and I cannot count them. And they are not human beings; they do not belong to our race. Yet these are God's created intelligences, and they are responsible creatures. They must come to report to God as a matter of regular routine. That is something I suppose we would expect. But there is also something here that is rather shocking. We are told that "Satan came also among them." That is a surprise."(JV McGee)
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 2:18:48 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I just read the first few chapters of the Book of Job.
The behaviour of God in this story does not seem at all consistent with the God most of you describe, nor with God of the New Testament. Why is this?
Also, who are the sons of God? Jesus and who else?
1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Excellent question. One I have also asked, but people seem to get frustrated with me when I point out that God did in fact wager all but the very breath of His most faithful servant, Job's life with Satan. I can not rationalize any good & decent answer for doing this to the man. I can think of a lot of possibilities, but none which are truly decent & good. He already knew that Job was faithful & would remain so. What did He have to prove to Satan?
I could understand people closing their ears & minds to me if I were an Athiest, but I am very much a believer & simply looking for answers.
It's just very frustrating for people to be so in your face pushy with their christian knowledge when the simple questions come out, but then when they can not come up with anything to support certain areas, they clam up & tell you that "there are just some things we accept because there are no answers this side of heaven". I mean, really now, and we are instructed to test the Spirit??????????
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 2:47:34 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1258
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From: Lebanon, OR
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quote:
He already knew that Job was faithful & would remain so. What did He have to prove to Satan?
Since the three principle parties God, Satan and Job(actually Job 'discovered')knew the outcome the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is it illustrates, like Pharaoh and Moses, is to confirm the arrogance of Satan and the supposed 'punishment' of one(or more)of God's saints since Satan can't get at Him or His Redeemer.(Job 19:25-29)
We're to 'test the spirit(s)' as to see they are false but we're not to 'grieve' the Spirit(HS) and 'thus sin'.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 2:48:49 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
Excellent question. One I have also asked, but people seem to get frustrated with me when I point out that God did in fact wager all but the very breath of His most faithful servant, Job's life with Satan. I can not rationalize any good & decent answer for doing this to the man. I can think of a lot of possibilities, but none which are truly decent & good. He already knew that Job was faithful & would remain so. What did He have to prove to Satan?
One thing that comes from the experience is what the story itself shows us - that tells us the God is indeed in total control of Satan and that well-meaning "friends" can be idiots rather than encouragers in our distress.
It also took me years to realize that Satan didn't come to God to challenge Job's character but that it was God who initiated the dialog and orchestrated the whole episode. In the process, Job became a witness through the ages of what a true believer is like in the midst of serious trials - faithful to and trusting in God.
There is also a long passage where God reminds us of our relationship with Him: That when all is said and done, He is Sovereign over all creation and He's not in need of our advice or instruction.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 2:50:41 PM
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terryjohn
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God has not been created in our likeness and it is important as I think someone, somewhere said that satan is always God's satan. If you have heard of the "devil's advocate", you might begin to understand that satan is God's advocate. As God is truth He unlike us is not afraid of accusations for only in them can He reveal His righteousness.
As I see it, only men and women of faith have the right to be called sons of God, dead or alive. Hence, the coming before God may actually be seen as men and women of faith in prayer presenting themselves and their thanks, praises and petitions to God.
Now the fact that satan also petitions God in relation to Job should teach us that even satan has to get permission to do evil to men and women of faith. We may not like it, but from our own boasting of faith comes the righteous call to test it. To faith it matters little whether we live or die or whether we prosper or not, for faith is all that is necessary to inherit that for which we were created sonship and the present sufferings are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us. Now faith that has gone unproven is no faith at all and we have little to be proud of, but in Job we can see that God Himself was proud of Him and so allowed His faith to be proven to the praise of all. For if Chirst had to share in our suffering to enter into His glory should we also not desire to share in His suffering that we to may enter into His glory?
The issue is, show me your faith! Don't sit in comfort and peace and tell the world you have faith, don't tell me that faith has made you rich, for even those of no faith can say their lack of faith has done that. Faith demands trials and testing for if faith remains it really was faith indeed. What reward should God give those who are only prepared to love God while He does as they tell Him to? Scripture says that those who seek to preserve their lives should loose it. In the end, many who claim to have faith will find out the only thing they had was a love of life and comfort, and not a love for the giver of life, God.
Better to have your faith tested and to be found wanting, and thus repent, than to die and be found wanting and cast out.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 6:30:41 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
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From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
God has not been created in our likeness and it is important as I think someone, somewhere said that satan is always God's satan. If you have heard of the "devil's advocate", you might begin to understand that satan is God's advocate. As God is truth He unlike us is not afraid of accusations for only in them can He reveal His righteousness.
As I see it, only men and women of faith have the right to be called sons of God, dead or alive. Hence, the coming before God may actually be seen as men and women of faith in prayer presenting themselves and their thanks, praises and petitions to God.
Now the fact that satan also petitions God in relation to Job should teach us that even satan has to get permission to do evil to men and women of faith. We may not like it, but from our own boasting of faith comes the righteous call to test it. To faith it matters little whether we live or die or whether we prosper or not, for faith is all that is necessary to inherit that for which we were created sonship and the present sufferings are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us. Now faith that has gone unproven is no faith at all and we have little to be proud of, but in Job we can see that God Himself was proud of Him and so allowed His faith to be proven to the praise of all. For if Chirst had to share in our suffering to enter into His glory should we also not desire to share in His suffering that we to may enter into His glory?
The issue is, show me your faith! Don't sit in comfort and peace and tell the world you have faith, don't tell me that faith has made you rich, for even those of no faith can say their lack of faith has done that. Faith demands trials and testing for if faith remains it really was faith indeed. What reward should God give those who are only prepared to love God while He does as they tell Him to? Scripture says that those who seek to preserve their lives should loose it. In the end, many who claim to have faith will find out the only thing they had was a love of life and comfort, and not a love for the giver of life, God.
Better to have your faith tested and to be found wanting, and thus repent, than to die and be found wanting and cast out.
So then, is our faith weak or meaningless unless we are martyred????????
< Message edited by norak -- 10/3/2008 6:37:23 PM >
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 6:53:47 PM
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delete123
Posts: 973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: norak
So then, is our faith weak or meaningless unless we are martyred????????
TerryJohn did not say our faith our faith is weak or we should be martyred.
I believe he is referring to the testing of ones faith even in times of ones doubt or understanding maybe a better term.
Job did not understand his trial and would not blame God for the evil that has been bestowed upon him. Instead Job continued to bless him even after devistation was of hold.
However Job had unworthy friends that blamed him asking how did he sin that God would pour out such a tribulation upon him.
Having faith is still holding on to God during our times of trials and tribulations and their is nothing martyr about that. And waiting in God in all humility may appear as a weakness to some folks, but it truly is a strength even when the odds seem against it.
If you notice the end of Job's trials and tribulation, God answered Job with a question to his questions: Stand up and gird yourself, Where were You when I created all the heavens and the earth? Where you there when my hand...?
God does not owe us an explaination, however we are to remain faithful and trust in Him.
Job did and God blessed him for remaining faithful when others tried to get him to curse God or they themselves were weak in faith and/or lack of understanding.(mainly his wife and poor excuse of friends)
Martydom you would need to look more towards Stephen in Acts and Mark who established a church in Egypt. (He was drug through the city by his feet, by romans soldiers. See Egyptian Coptic faith. Saint Mark church of Martydom)
FYI: For Beginners
I should also add that the book of Job is one of the oldest books in the bible and was written before the first 5 books (Genesis-Deuteronomy). The bible is not written in a chronological order
< Message edited by delete123 -- 10/3/2008 7:06:29 PM >
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 7:12:00 PM
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delete123
Posts: 973
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Also, who are the sons of God? Jesus and who else?
1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
KaseyTom~
We are the sons of God for we have been grafted into that tree of adoption. By being grafted we became heirs along with Jesus.
Satan will always be there and even Jesus states this, that he is our adversary and goes to the Father accusing us.
What saves us is the spilt blood of our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ, who died and made atonement for your sin.
So on that day when satan tries to accuse you, Jesus will be there signing his name over your sin procclaiming, Hey Dad He's mine! I paid for 'him' in full!
blessings brother
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 10:09:51 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
Satan will always be there and even Jesus states this, that he is our adversary and goes to the Father accusing us.
What saves us is the spilt blood of our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ, who died and made atonement for your sin.
So on that day when satan tries to accuse you, Jesus will be there signing his name over your sin procclaiming, Hey Dad He's mine! I paid for 'him' in full!
blessings brother
AMEN!! Delete123
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 10:35:35 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
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From: Arkansas
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Job 1:6
The Bible speaks of other heavenly councils where God and the angels plan their activities on earth and where angels are required to give account of themselves (1 Kings 22:19-23). Because God is Creator of all angels-both of those who serve Him and of those who rebelled-He has complete power and authority over them.
Job was a model of trust and obedience to God, yet God permitted Satan to attack him in an especially harsh manner. Although God loves us, believing and obeying him do not shelter us from life's calamities. Setbacks, tragedies and sorrows strike Christians and non-Christians alike. But in our tests and trials, God expects us to express our faith to the world. How do we respond to our troubles? Do we ask God, "Why me?" or do we say, "Use me!"?
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 11:12:45 PM
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Apeleutheros
Posts: 54
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I just recently did an assignment on Job for my OTS class. So here I'll copy and paste it:
Submission in Suffering
on the book of Job
After reading the story of Job I considered all that our Lord suffered; I was made to realize, that our Lord, who is without fault, who is blameless and just in every way, did not once attempt to justify himself before God. Then I saw a contrast develope in the way I saw the sufferings a of Job and the suffering of our Lord. Even though Job "drank scorn like water", he declared it an injustice and in boasting of his own "righteousness still standing", he contended with God. He considered God's hand capable of evil, not realizing, that it can only be in the absence of God, that evil has her reign. Yet for all which Job suffered by the hand of Satan, God turned it around to reveal the righteousness which truely justifies.
The Lord was and is perfectly just, yet when He came to his own, His reward was injustice. But not once did He justify his own self, even though He was in everyway justified. In this we can see a glimpse of the heart of the Father, and we can see that in justifying ourselves, we claim to be more righteous than He. Although Job was a "righteous" man and his suffering was not the reward of any sin of his own, by justifying himself, he, in turn, denied justification.
It is only by faith; submitting to God in all things, that we then are justified by His grace and are made to be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. When Job finally did repent in ashes and dust, God's justice poured in, and grace reigned through righteousness, and Job was reconciled to the glory of God.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 11:28:41 PM
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Apeleutheros
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: Washington
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I just read the first few chapters of the Book of Job.
The behaviour of God in this story does not seem at all consistent with the God most of you describe, nor with God of the New Testament. Why is this?
Also, who are the sons of God? Jesus and who else?
1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
What many do not understand is that God is far more concerned with the condition of our heart than our personal comfort or welfare. God allowed Job to suffer in temporal loss and anguish, but established him in eternal hope and glory. Through out the book of Job, Job constantly justified himself in his sufferings which is an act of self righteousness. Jesus never did this. Job was righteous but he was righteous in the way a man is righteous, not in the way God is righteous. God is not a bag of skittles. He is no respecter of persons. He wants us purged of our self will that we may be vessels of honor and serve him whole heartedly. God is not a candy store. God is not Santa Claus. He does not need to answer to men for what he allows. He has a plan and a purpose even in the worst situations. His results are perfect and justice is part of His being.
It is not so important what have to endure in our temporal existence, but what is important is how we stand eternally. The Lord sits as a refiner of silver upon our hearts and shall thoroughly purge out the dross.
You cannot refine silver by putting it in a warm bubble bath or by giving it a massage. It has to pass through the fire.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 11:31:42 PM
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Apeleutheros
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: Washington
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Also, who are the sons of God? Jesus and who else?
1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Oh, also:
In this particular passage, "The sons of God" is refering to the angels.
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RE: The story of Job - 10/3/2008 11:43:59 PM
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Apeleutheros
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Joined: 10/2/2008
From: Washington
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Job's three friends were all wrong in their judgments but read what young Elihu said to them all(Job ch.32-37). Elihu is Gods repesenative in this book, being the least of them all and humbling Himself God spoke through Elihu and he rebuked not only Job's friends but moreso he rebuked Job. Aside from God, He is the only one who speaks truth in this book. If you look, Elihu is the only one God does not rebuke(Job38:1-2, Job40:1-2, Job42:7-9).
< Message edited by Apeleutheros -- 10/3/2008 11:57:30 PM >
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RE: The story of Job - 10/4/2008 5:28:30 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Apeleutheros
Job's three friends were all wrong in their judgments but read what young Elihu said to them all(Job ch.32-37). Elihu is Gods repesenative in this book, being the least of them all and humbling Himself God spoke through Elihu and he rebuked not only Job's friends but moreso he rebuked Job. Aside from God, He is the only one who speaks truth in this book. If you look, Elihu is the only one God does not rebuke(Job38:1-2, Job40:1-2, Job42:7-9).
33:13
Elihu "CLAIMED" to have the the answer for Job's biggest question, "Why doesn't God tell me what is happening?" Elihu told Job that God was trying to answer him, but he was not listening. Elihu misjudged God on this point.
33:14-24
Elihu's point was that God had spoken again and again. He spoke in dreams and visions (33:15-18), through suffering (33:19-22), and by mediating angels (33:23,24). Job already knew that. Elihu accused Job of not listening to God, which was not true. God doesnt sin and is never unjust, Elihu claimed. Throughout this book, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zpohar and Elihu all have elements of the truth in their speeches. Unfortunately, the nuggets of truth are buried under layers of false assumptions and conclusions. Although we might have a wealth of Bible knowledge and life experiences, we must make sure our conclusions are consistent with all God's Word, not just parts of it.
37:21-24
Elihu concluded his speech with the tremendous truth that faith in God is far more important than Job's desire for an explanation for his suffering. He came so close to helping Job but then went down the wrong path. Significantly, it is here that God "HIMSELF" breaks into the discussion to draw the "RIGHT" conclusions from this important truth. (38:1)
< Message edited by misty35 -- 10/4/2008 5:35:54 PM >
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RE: The story of Job - 10/8/2008 12:42:30 AM
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Apeleutheros
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: Washington
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
33:13
Elihu "CLAIMED" to have the the answer for Job's biggest question, "Why doesn't God tell me what is happening?" Elihu told Job that God was trying to answer him, but he was not listening. Elihu misjudged God on this point.
33:14-24
Elihu's point was that God had spoken again and again. He spoke in dreams and visions (33:15-18), through suffering (33:19-22), and by mediating angels (33:23,24). Job already knew that. Elihu accused Job of not listening to God, which was not true. God doesnt sin and is never unjust, Elihu claimed. Throughout this book, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zpohar and Elihu all have elements of the truth in their speeches. Unfortunately, the nuggets of truth are buried under layers of false assumptions and conclusions. Although we might have a wealth of Bible knowledge and life experiences, we must make sure our conclusions are consistent with all God's Word, not just parts of it.
37:21-24
Elihu concluded his speech with the tremendous truth that faith in God is far more important than Job's desire for an explanation for his suffering. He came so close to helping Job but then went down the wrong path. Significantly, it is here that God "HIMSELF" breaks into the discussion to draw the "RIGHT" conclusions from this important truth. (38:1)
I was wrong to say there was no truth at all in what the others had said. But I am not so sure Elihu misjudged anything in all that he spoke. I'll check before I make any presumptions.
Thanks
God Bless
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