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We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 7:55:12 PM
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Walker311
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Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
I love perfection. Who doesn't? If I purchase something such as a car or some other product and it is flawed in some way, I'm taking it back.
I love coffee and I attempt to make the perfect cup each time. I've perfected it to the point that almost no other coffee that I consume elsewhere will compare to my home brew. This does not mean it is perfect, but it is close enough, at least for me.
Perfectionism is a rare thing now days. We all have learned to lower our standards for what we expect in our resources as well as in other people.
So, maybe Jesus gave us a goal to strive for even though He knew it was impossible. Maybe Jesus had supernatural help to not sin. I do not accept or believe either of these statements.
The bottom line is that if we love God, then we will follow His commandments. Correct?
___________________
I do not want to talk about sin. I am tired of all the SIN topics. I want to know what I need to do to be perfect.
If this is not something that appeals to you or you do not embrace the possibility and would rather concentrate on the negative aspect of perfectionism, this is not the thread for you.
___________________
Questions?
What are the ingredients necessary for presenting ourselves as perfect before God?
How do you think it makes God feel when you and I make a real effort to be like Jesus? Comments and scripture welcomed.
< Message edited by Walker311 -- 4/27/2008 8:03:44 PM >
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 9:16:38 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3682
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
Its an encouragement. Would you expect Jesus to tell us...just do the best you can?
Its Jesus telling us that God is our example and not any man.
How many gods do you know? Sincve there are none, and we all fall short, and we all sin, then was Jesus a liar?
Probably not. So, maybe taking one scripture and making doctrine from it is a poor form of interpretation.
If perfection was truly the single goal of being a christian then why did Jesus come? Wouldn't the law have been enough? This is the right thing...do it. If you don't you will go to hell....I am sorry but this is not christianity.
Its Christ's righteousness that buys the ticket, and our belief in Him. That does NOT excuse sin. It does not say our salvation is a matter of free will. It says Jesus is the reason for Christianity and not us.
I've tried it. I've done it. The perfect little christian. It always fails.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 9:34:07 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 206
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Romans 4:5 -- However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
This is how I have become perfect, as my heavenly Father is perfect. My faith has been credited as perfect righteousness. Thus I can say with Paul in Romans 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 9:36:00 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3682
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
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Thank you Lord Jesus for Grace.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 9:41:34 PM
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sunshine4God
Posts: 5352
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I'm so thankful the Lord loves me just as I am even though I am so imperfect.His grace amazes me.
_____________________________
Matthew 5:16.
"Let your light so shine before men that they will see
your good deeds and glorify your Lord".
<Its me having fun at the beach!
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/27/2008 10:04:21 PM
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Walker311
Posts: 1817
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quote:
Its an encouragement. Would you expect Jesus to tell us...just do the best you can?
So, do you view Do not kill also as an encouragement or do you think He meant Try not to kill?
I take the perfect statement at face value. I don't believe watering down
"be ye therefore perfect" is a play on words but it is nothing less than what God expects.
quote:
So, maybe taking one scripture and making doctrine from it is a poor form of interpretation.
Doctrine is a body of principles not a single scripture. This is simply a discussion not a single goal.
Being perfect before God should be a desire. It should be a goal.
As a matter of fact, we should strive every day to be more than we were the day before and with the help of the Holy Spirit, nothing should be impossible.
God is not glorified when we do not learn what He is trying to teach us. When God breaks us, He rebuilds us and with each rebuilding we should be better and stronger.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 12:16:37 AM
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zamdad
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From a human perspective, perfection is rarely going to meet the same qualifications. Seems to me that what God wants from us more than anything is obedience.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 1:33:59 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 212
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
I love perfection. Who doesn't? If I purchase something such as a car or some other product and it is flawed in some way, I'm taking it back.
I love coffee and I attempt to make the perfect cup each time. I've perfected it to the point that almost no other coffee that I consume elsewhere will compare to my home brew. This does not mean it is perfect, but it is close enough, at least for me.
Perfectionism is a rare thing now days. We all have learned to lower our standards for what we expect in our resources as well as in other people.
So, maybe Jesus gave us a goal to strive for even though He knew it was impossible. Maybe Jesus had supernatural help to not sin. I do not accept or believe either of these statements.
The bottom line is that if we love God, then we will follow His commandments. Correct?
___________________
I do not want to talk about sin. I am tired of all the SIN topics. I want to know what I need to do to be perfect.
If this is not something that appeals to you or you do not embrace the possibility and would rather concentrate on the negative aspect of perfectionism, this is not the thread for you.
___________________
Questions?
What are the ingredients necessary for presenting ourselves as perfect before God?
How do you think it makes God feel when you and I make a real effort to be like Jesus? Comments and scripture welcomed.
Jesus was able to live His life here without sin because He is God.
As sinful human beings we could never present ourselves perfect before God without the redeeming grace through His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we can't even begin to be like Jesus.
As Christians we are not perfect, it's just that our imperfections have been washed away with Christ's blood.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 2:37:28 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3682
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
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quote:
Being perfect before God should be a desire. It should be a goal.
As a matter of fact, we should strive every day to be more than we were the day before and with the help of the Holy Spirit, nothing should be impossible.
I agree
quote:
Jesus was able to live His life here without sin because He is God.
As sinful human beings we could never present ourselves perfect before God without the redeeming grace through His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we can't even begin to be like Jesus.
As Christians we are not perfect, it's just that our imperfections have been washed away with Christ's blood.
I agree.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 7:28:40 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 974
Status: offline
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Be carefull Walky, you might be considered a legalist!!!!!!  Wanting to be perfect, in earthly terms is described by some as being "good", like a goody two shoes...... It's taking scripture and "brow beating". Perfect actually means "mature". Does He expect us to mature? Absolutely! If we are not, are we following His will and His word? I think not. Complacency does not fit into God's Word. The NT is filled with a bunch of do'es and don'ts, all of which enable us to mature and keep growing. We are capable of maturing and many scriptures tell us how to do that. We just have to decide if we are going to be obedient or not. I don't want to be perfect because I believe it will grant me more favor with Him or to secure my place in Heaven. I want to be perfect because He desires for me to be perfect. He has changed me, transformed me and I certainly would rather be obedient and content that disobedient and suffering the consequences-those really are not fun, as I'm sure we can all attest to. I know by far He is more pleased with us when we are obedient, yet He continues to love us when we are not. There is so much joy and comfort in that. We can't achieve that unless we put for the effort to increase our relationship with Him. If we don't talk to Him, how do we get to know Him better? If we don't listen to Him how can we hear Him. If we don't study and apply His Word to our lives, how do we become more like Him?If we don't praise Him, do we really have gratitude for His sacrifice? If we are disobedient, can't we ask the same thing? Perfection is a process and a journey. One trip I'll gladly stay on, not desiring to come to this "home".
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 8:49:01 AM
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armydude
Posts: 12952
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
I do not want to talk about sin. I am tired of all the SIN topics. I want to know what I need to do to be perfect.
If this is not something that appeals to you or you do not embrace the possibility and would rather concentrate on the negative aspect of perfectionism, this is not the thread for you.
Jesus gave us the blueprint for perfect living. It's so easy to overlook these days because (as you said) people want to talk about sin. "It's a sin to ________." "No it's not a sin to ________!" Back and forth we go, and we never get anything accomplished, with the one exception that we drive away people from hearing the gospel.
What is this blueprint for perfect living? It's found in Matthew 27, starting with verse 37.
" Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
If we love God the way this verse tells us, idolatry will look to us the way it looks to Him. Ugly. If we love God the way this verse tells us, taking His name in vain (with our lives as much as with our words) will repulse us. If we love God the way this verse prescribes, we will understand that love is not a feeling, but an action based on a deliberate decision- just the way He loved us first.
If we love our neighbor as ourselves, stealing from our neighbor, coveting his wife (or her husband), lying about him (her), etc. will repulse us just as much. Once again, this is based on a true love, not a feeling that can come and go.
_____________________________
Virtue has more admirers than followers.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 8:57:27 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
The way I see it there are only two possible responses to this passage.
"If God says I need to be as perfect as Him, then I will make myself as perfect as Him."
(OR)
"I am doomed, who can save me?"
If one is conscious, this passage buries you. It shows you Gods true requirement for acceptance by Him, and points you to your need for a Savior.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 8:59:43 AM
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armydude
Posts: 12952
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
The way I see it there are only two possible responses to this passage.
"If God says I need to be as perfect as Him, then I will make myself as perfect as Him."
(OR)
"I am doomed, who can save me?"
If one is conscious, this passage buries you. It shows you Gods true requirement for acceptance by Him, and points you to your need for a Savior.
Actually, there is a third response. "God, I cannot make myself perfect. I need You to do so."
Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. It takes faith to depend on Him to perfect us. It also takes faith to let Him perfect us without grumbling about the process.
ETA: This is brought out in the last part of your post. It does point us directly to the Savior's finished work.
_____________________________
Virtue has more admirers than followers.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 8:59:49 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 974
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Excellent Army Dude!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 9:14:35 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Why would we be told to do something that does not seem possible?
The way I see it there are only two possible responses to this passage.
"If God says I need to be as perfect as Him, then I will make myself as perfect as Him."
(OR)
"I am doomed, who can save me?"
If one is conscious, this passage buries you. It shows you Gods true requirement for acceptance by Him, and points you to your need for a Savior.
Actually, there is a third response. "God, I cannot make myself perfect. I need You to do so."
Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. It takes faith to depend on Him to perfect us. It also takes faith to let Him perfect us without grumbling about the process.
ETA: This is brought out in the last part of your post. It does point us directly to the Savior's finished work.
Ahh, that IS the second response.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 9:20:47 AM
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armydude
Posts: 12952
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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Ahhh... Looking more closely, I can see that. Thank you for pointing that out.
_____________________________
Virtue has more admirers than followers.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 12:19:48 PM
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missleyna
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/23/2008
From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
From a human perspective, perfection is rarely going to meet the same qualifications. Seems to me that what God wants from us more than anything is obedience.
Perhaps that is how we achieve 'perfection'? If as a Christian, we obey God always, then by default are we 'be ye therefore perfect'?
But then- Im not sure if it is possible for us to be perfect ourselves or to obey ourselves- perhaps the only way to be perfect is to realize that on our own we are the furthest from perfect, but with God we can be perfect because He is perfect? So if we live our lives for Him and with Him, then we are perfect? Because God has filled us with the spirit and that is what enables us to obey all things?
I may be talking in circles...
_____________________________
Saved by the grace of God, through faith!
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 2:38:01 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 688
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I like your questions Walker. You really sit and think about what you are going to post and you always get me thinking. 
I have always considered biblical perfection to refer to Christian maturity.
Here is a good link which I hope helps to explain something about Christian perfection/maturity:
Link re: Christian perfection (maturity)
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 4/28/2008 2:45:48 PM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 5:41:44 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1072
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:
I love coffee and I attempt to make the perfect cup each time.
Amen to that! And I am serious. . .about coffee. Speaking of which, have you tried Alterra's MarketBlend beans? or perhaps you're too far from Milwaukee to have heard of them? They're my favorite. Grind 'em each morning and put 'em in my press and four and a half minutes later I have coffee. . .perfect to my taste.
Yes, I do credit God with my desire for perfect. It is all part of that longing for heaven, righteousness, justice and eternity that He has put in our hearts. Bless ya, Walker!
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 5:53:01 PM
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Walker311
Posts: 1817
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I appreciate the fact that a majority of you understand my questions.
A quest for personal perfection outside of the work that the Holy Spirit is doing within us seems to be a feeble attempt. We all eventually reach a certain point of Christian maturity and give up our bottles and ask, what's next?
The world cannot always see the work that is going on in us so I find myself constantly checking my spiritual reflection and I see that I must consciously pay attention to some of junk the world rubs off on me. Try as I might, IT gets on me... some days very little and others days quite a bit.
I am concerned about my spiritual appearance hence this thread.
quote:
Little said: Be carefull Walky, you might be considered a legalist!!!!!!
Nah! I don't like the cultish and faraway look in their eyes. I like that link! I post so I can get responses from you guys that keep me thinking.
quote:
Armydude said: Jesus gave us the blueprint for perfect living.
Yes and thanks for the scripture reference. IF we love God, we will show Him. And what better way to show Him than with the way we live our lives.
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/28/2008 5:57:56 PM
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Walker311
Posts: 1817
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Perfect means COMPLETE.
I've thought about it and it is the journey to perfection that prepares us for what God has in store for us.
That cup of coffee (Gevalia traditional roast) is always strong and good but for some reason, it is never perfect but that does not stop me from trying. Ok! Going for another cup...
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RE: We Want Perfect Things, Shouldn't GOD Expect the Same? - 4/29/2008 7:48:12 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3682
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
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What is perfection?
Keeping the Law 100% all the time.
How did Jesus sum up the Law?
Loving others and loving God.
That...is christian perfection.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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I did however post the following: 