|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Why did you choose your belief? - 7/18/2008 12:40:21 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
These questions are for those of you who believe that belief is a matter of choice. I'll say up front that I don't believe that it is, but I'm still exploring the relationship between will and belief. (Surely there is some relationship?) I wasn't sure what folder this should be in, but since I mainly have beliefs regarding God in mind I hope it's okay here.
1. Why did you choose your belief?
2. What reasons do you imagine a person with a different belief (i.e. one you consider to be wrong) chose his or her belief?
thanks,
abraxas
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/18/2008 1:53:29 AM
|
|
|
BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
Joined: 5/10/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
These questions are for those of you who believe that belief is a matter of choice. I'll say up front that I don't believe that it is, but I'm still exploring the relationship between will and belief. (Surely there is some relationship?) I wasn't sure what folder this should be in, but since I mainly have beliefs regarding God in mind I hope it's okay here.
1. Why did you choose your belief?
2. What reasons do you imagine a person with a different belief (i.e. one you consider to be wrong) chose his or her belief?
thanks,
abraxas
What do you mean by belief? Christianity over some other religion, or beliefs within the realm of Christianity?
I have done some study of other religions, but they never explained the how and why of existence to my satisfaction the way Christianity has.
As to my beliefs within Christianity they are as far as I can manage, based upon the Bible, I do my level best to bring both my beliefs and my life into accord with scripture.
As to other Christians believing differently, as long as their beliefs aren't clearly outside the pale of orthodoxy, I have come to the realization that different people are at different levels of growth in their Christian walk, and have been gifted with talents and abilities different than mine.
As a result they have a different understandings based upon their abilities and the call God is preparing for them and how far they have grown in understanding.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/18/2008 5:31:26 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
What do you mean by belief? Christianity over some other religion, or beliefs within the realm of Christianity?
Hi Tim,
For the first question, I guess both. From among the many "candidates" for belief, both Christian and non, you believe something. Do you believe you chose that belief, and why? (I take it this next part is an answer to this):
quote:
I have done some study of other religions, but they never explained the how and why of existence to my satisfaction the way Christianity has.
Can you elaborate on "my satisfaction"?
quote:
As to other Christians believing differently, as long as their beliefs aren't clearly outside the pale of orthodoxy, I have come to the realization that different people are at different levels of growth in their Christian walk, and have been gifted with talents and abilities different than mine.
As a result they have a different understandings based upon their abilities and the call God is preparing for them and how far they have grown in understanding.
For the second question I was thinking something more different from your own beliefs. To be clearer I'll rephrase the question--For what reasons do you think the Muslim, the Mormon, and the Hindu chose their beliefs?
thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/18/2008 6:14:48 PM
|
|
|
beachcooky
Posts: 783
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
These questions are for those of you who believe that belief is a matter of choice. I'll say up front that I don't believe that it is, but I'm still exploring the relationship between will and belief. (Surely there is some relationship?) I wasn't sure what folder this should be in, but since I mainly have beliefs regarding God in mind I hope it's okay here.
1. Why did you choose your belief?
2. What reasons do you imagine a person with a different belief (i.e. one you consider to be wrong) chose his or her belief?
thanks,
abraxas
I was raised in a Christian home. My mom was my mentor. I didn't accept Jesus as my personal Lord & Savior until age 7 and from then on, I had a heart for Jesus. I used to have a gift of prophecy, but when I turned my back on God, that gift left. I am back with Him now, but it's been a long long journey.
We all have a right to believe in something. I don't judge people who believe differently. Most of my friends are athiests & agnostics. Of course I want a Christian friend...but many Christians have done me wrong in the past. So I try to stay away from them as MUCH as possible.
_____________________________
www.myspace.com/xsweetheartforux
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/21/2008 1:24:30 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7398
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
I don't know that I 'chose' my belief. God made it evident what was true, and that what I had been believing (and living) was a lie, and my only real choice in the matter was whether I accepted His view of the matter or not.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/21/2008 1:53:03 PM
|
|
|
PureOath
Posts: 42
Joined: 9/2/2007
From: Abiding in the Shadow of the Almighty
Status: offline
|
1.) I don't know how much of it I chose, and how much of it chose me.
My mother got very convicted about her faith when I was 16. I thought she was CRAZY. I rebelled against anything that had to do with God at all.
When I was a very young girl and my parents divorced, I remember thinking: If there is a God, and he would let my family come apart like this, I don't want anything to do with him.
Maintained the same attitude until when I was 23 and the Lord directly intervened in my life and made Himself evident. I gave my life to Him - and while my life since hasn't been perfect, I can give so many beautiful testimonies about His grace and His goodness.
I had to choose to follow Him and believe what he was telling me. But if it weren't for Him making himself known to me so fully - I couldn't have done it.
On some theological issues - this being one of them - I tend to lean toward an inclusive approach. If the scales hadn't been dropped from my eyes, I couldn't believe. If he hadn't called out to me so I would call back to him, I couldn't believe. If he hadn't given me anywhere to look but up, I couldn't believe. But the entire time I could choose not to believe.
2.) Why do others have other beliefs?
For some it's cultural. They grew up with it. For some it's rebellion. They hate what they grew up with. For some it's concept of innovation. Wow. Isn't that a brand new idea! (Even though there's nothing new under the sun.) But the word I would use to describe all of these as a Christian is deception. Delibrate deception by an enemy who would rather you not know the Truth.
_____________________________
quote:
Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.
- Sir Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/26/2008 12:16:29 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
Thanks for replying, sorry I haven't kept up my end.
I like how PureOath phrased it at the beginning of her post--something also echoed in Jhud's post. I think I can relate to that idea. It's interesting that people who share at least one thing in common--they want their beliefs to align with "how it actually is"--can fall onto such different sides of the issues. AND, they may, like Jhud, describe their process as recognizing what is true and realizing their former position was incorrect.
My original question is still out there, for anyone who believes that belief is a matter of choice. Isn't that implied when people describe the Christian gospel as a free offer that we need only choose to accept?
Aside from that--Jhud has said that free will came into play in the choice to accept or not what had been revealed as the truth. Does anyone see other ways that our beliefs are a matter of our free will? In what way might we be responsible for our beliefs, if we assume that to some degree they "chose us"?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/26/2008 11:09:44 AM
|
|
|
Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: beachcooky
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
These questions are for those of you who believe that belief is a matter of choice. I'll say up front that I don't believe that it is, but I'm still exploring the relationship between will and belief. (Surely there is some relationship?) I wasn't sure what folder this should be in, but since I mainly have beliefs regarding God in mind I hope it's okay here.
1. Why did you choose your belief?
2. What reasons do you imagine a person with a different belief (i.e. one you consider to be wrong) chose his or her belief?
thanks,
abraxas
I was raised in a Christian home. My mom was my mentor. I didn't accept Jesus as my personal Lord & Savior until age 7 and from then on, I had a heart for Jesus. I used to have a gift of prophecy, but when I turned my back on God, that gift left. I am back with Him now, but it's been a long long journey.
We all have a right to believe in something. I don't judge people who believe differently. Most of my friends are athiests & agnostics. Of course I want a Christian friend...but many Christians have done me wrong in the past. So I try to stay away from them as MUCH as possible.
What was your experience when you passed from death to life? The bible also says "Do not be yoked with unbelievers...for what do day and night have in common?" So who do you think are of the day. believers or unbelievers? And who do you think are of the night, believers or unbelievers?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/26/2008 11:12:07 AM
|
|
|
Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: PureOath
1.) I don't know how much of it I chose, and how much of it chose me.
My mother got very convicted about her faith when I was 16. I thought she was CRAZY. I rebelled against anything that had to do with God at all.
When I was a very young girl and my parents divorced, I remember thinking: If there is a God, and he would let my family come apart like this, I don't want anything to do with him.
Maintained the same attitude until when I was 23 and the Lord directly intervened in my life and made Himself evident. I gave my life to Him - and while my life since hasn't been perfect, I can give so many beautiful testimonies about His grace and His goodness.
I had to choose to follow Him and believe what he was telling me. But if it weren't for Him making himself known to me so fully - I couldn't have done it.
On some theological issues - this being one of them - I tend to lean toward an inclusive approach. If the scales hadn't been dropped from my eyes, I couldn't believe. If he hadn't called out to me so I would call back to him, I couldn't believe. If he hadn't given me anywhere to look but up, I couldn't believe. But the entire time I could choose not to believe.
2.) Why do others have other beliefs?
For some it's cultural. They grew up with it. For some it's rebellion. They hate what they grew up with. For some it's concept of innovation. Wow. Isn't that a brand new idea! (Even though there's nothing new under the sun.) But the word I would use to describe all of these as a Christian is deception. Delibrate deception by an enemy who would rather you not know the Truth.
You can be sure that God chose you. Jesus said; "You did not choose me. I chose you." Your eyes were simply opened by God to the truth. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/26/2008 11:16:19 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1202
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
|
quote:
From my experience with those who claim their belief was a decision, they almost always fall away at some point.
I think that's a bit of an unfair generalization. I know some very strong Christians who believe that their belief was a choice.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/27/2008 12:04:02 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
One cannot decide to believe from his heart like one decides to be a democrat or Republican. One has to be converted to be a Christian which means he has to be born again.
Sorry, I was thinking from what you wrote in the other thread that you saw it as a matter of choice. You wrote, "So all people have to do is merely confess their sins and seek God's forgiveness for them. That's all they have to do."
Obviously if they don't believe in God, and they don't believe in the God of the Bible, we can't expect them to do this. What role do you see a person's choice playing in the process, if any?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/27/2008 12:44:19 AM
|
|
|
beachcooky
Posts: 783
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
What was your experience when you passed from death to life? The bible also says "Do not be yoked with unbelievers...for what do day and night have in common?" So who do you think are of the day. believers or unbelievers? And who do you think are of the night, believers or unbelievers?
"Don't begin by traveling to some far-off place to convert unbelievers. And don't try to be dramatic by tackling some public enemy. GO TO THE LOST, CONFUSED PEOPLE RIGHT HERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. Tell them that the Kingdom is here. Bring health to the sick.
-Matthew 10:5-8 (The Message)
I love my Lord with all my heart. But am I going to turn my back on someone because they aren't Christian? Absolutely not. I don't know if you have done it, but this is why I'm not FRIENDS with a lot of Christians. Because they are like that. "We're so mightier than you." I mean, when I turned my back on God and when my BEST FRIEND turned her back on me because I wasn't, do you know how HURTFUL that felt? I felt rejected...by a Christian. God put us Christians on this earth for a reason. To show HIS love. Not to turn away from people who don't believe in Him, but be shining lights to them.
< Message edited by beachcooky -- 7/28/2008 4:35:10 PM >
_____________________________
www.myspace.com/xsweetheartforux
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/27/2008 5:03:30 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
I hope we can keep from veering TOO far away from the OP (though beachcooky I think you make a good point.)
Here are two comments that I recently came across here, which if we go on the assumption that we don't just 'choose' our beliefs, become problematic. Thoughts?
quote:
The Christain certainly knows it is not God sending us [to Hell],
but we, ourselves, because of whom we choose to follow.
quote:
At that point, Yeshua will point out that the price has been paid for those of us who accept it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/28/2008 10:50:14 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
quote:
You wrote, "So all people have to do is merely confess their sins and
seek God's forgiveness for them. That's all they have to do."
I think this is the way for a confused soul to realize that they are included in
the ones that are called by Jesus: All who are weak and weary. Only the
unhappily restless person seeks rest. Such is too trivial to imply the primacy
of the will, I say.
This is a great question abraxas -- one that I have asked and probably continue
to ask. I feel like if it is a choice, I sure hope I make it.
However, I feel like my will is only capable of chaotic things. That's a pretty
good way to put it. What can I choose? Lots of things. Can I choose
Christianity? Sure, but in a chaotic way, and it wouldn't necessarily entail
the trivial and profound sense of becoming oneself, of becoming alive, of
becoming real, and all the other too-profound or obscure sounding
phraseologies. (What does it have to do with "the self" -- it has as much to
do with dying to the self as finding the self, right, so what am I saying?)
I am just talking about not being a liar in life.
You see, anyone could very easily get away with not being "themselves"
throughout their life, of playing a game with life. It has been said, one is
bound to notice the loss of something infinitely less important, five dollars,
etc., but the misplacing of one's life can be passed off without alarm. Perhaps that is the only way to pass it off: to ignore the alarms.
I guess it makes sense when one considers all action to be "speech" as well; and
thus all of life can either be construed either as a lie or as a confession, as
a non-ironic disclosure. If there happens to be something interior to us which
is entirely contingent on our willingness (in that we possess sufficiency to
ESTOP the disclosure) but entirely non-contingent on us since our attempts at
disclosure before other people are always ambiguous and suspicious, it seems we
have a situation in which the will is important but it has come upon something
that it cannot surmount.
Can a freedom will for itself necessity? How about sufficiency? If a freedom is perfect, doesn't that mean that it bows to no sufficiency? And if such is perfection, isn't it also indistinguishable from an utter disarray?
I hope you will agree that my views are not apparently different from those others expressed in this thread. No one has said, speaking for themselves, that their choice is primary in their relationship to God. However, it is also interesting to consider whether or why the language of Christianity sometimes implies otherwise.
In sum: I believe and it seems others believe that human will and choice has the power (which is not a really a power since it leads to chaos) or, perhaps more aptly, freedom, to do. Our actions are contingent -- really, contingent on nothing since they are "contingent on freedom." However, if it is found that something within a person seems to come from without this freedom and we find that that is the sort of thing we would prefer to will, rather than chaos, but then we find that we are not capable -- then we have undergone the following concise process:
Our first act of free will is to believe in it, and our second and last (second in the sense that all intervening are not based on self-exertion but rather on chaos or arbitary criteria or ambiguous ones) act -- an impossible one, for us -- is to lay that freedom down in favor of sufficiency.
Luckily for us, we are not asked to trust that every believer is running around enacting the will of God. Christianity, instead, arises out of the mess that it is our freedom confronted by opportunity cost; it arises out of the freedom that exists between interiority and exteriority: whether to disclose (confess) and the apparent continual refusal to do so. Again, I can only repeat, if it is up to my choice to respond to God repentantly, I hope I do it. If, however, it is inevitable that I would come to hunger for rest amidst the restiveness which I continually exert, "as the deer hungers for the water," then I must express my gratitude that God would not only impose this thirst on me but would simultaneously offer means of its satisfaction.
Otherwise, what are my choices? What do they amount to? What is preferable about what I have willed versus other criteria I could have adopted? What happened to that person who seemed to have definite place in life rather than an infinitely contingent one (the one of freedom)? I can't definitely recall such a person existing, but the idea seems there.
I can confirm it only by the apprehension of love. In love, I seem necessary. Without, not at all. This is what seems to connect the momentary, mutable, and superfluous, with the momentous, the eternal, and the sufficient.
How does one choose love? What criteria can be employed? Isn't love that which refuses all reasons for itself? Isn't it less love to the extent that we justify it and furnish it with various sensibilities and exigencies -- becoming increasingly more like reciprocity, self-love, or utility?
Perhaps you will have some things to tell me. I feel it is not true that you have only questions and I only answers. I think you will probably have some answers for me, and me some earnest questions.
And why are we asking questions if it is true that we all know the answers anyway? Couldn't there still be a value in this as it serves either as a reminder or an occasion to confess such truth? However, is the case that you believe in the possibility of lying? Or is any statement trivially true via relativity and the arbitration of sincerity?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/28/2008 11:11:44 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
hellohellohi, I really enjoyed your post! My day is past over but I'll be sure to get back very soon. Thanks.
abraxas
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/28/2008 2:02:02 PM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
cool talk to ya later
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 5:06:31 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
Hi hhh,
Can you clarify what you mean when you say you are only capable of choosing chaotic things. Is it that without some external impetus, all choices would be equally valid to you?
quote:
You see, anyone could very easily get away with not being "themselves"
throughout their life, of playing a game with life. It has been said, one is
bound to notice the loss of something infinitely less important, five dollars,
etc., but the misplacing of one's life can be passed off without alarm. Perhaps that is the only way to pass it off: to ignore the alarms.
I can't think of the name, but there's a philosopher who says that humans all act, to some extent, around others, and probably even around themselves. I suppose we gravitate towards people with whom as many of our masks as possible can come off.
What I gather from what you're saying is that while a person might outwardly "choose" a certain belief, but that may or not be that person, in truth? This seems similar to how I understood Jhud's earlier comment, that eventually a personal acknowledgment of what the person actually sees as 'truth' is often necessary.
quote:
I hope you will agree that my views are not apparently different from those others expressed in this thread. No one has said, speaking for themselves, that their choice is primary in their relationship to God. However, it is also interesting to consider whether or why the language of Christianity sometimes implies otherwise.
This gets to the heart of the issue, for this is what I see. Here is one recent example from another thread: "God sends no one to hell, the individual chooses that path"
Here is another, a question JimboFletch posed to me: "How does you exercising your free will make Him culpable for your choice?" From the context of that discussion, I'm assuming that he means my choice not to believe. I'd like to know how I made that choice, and for what reasons.
I have to confess the only doctrinally sound explanation I've seen is Calvinism, which to me says, No, we don't choose to believe, God chooses whom He chooses, and they simply believe. So I suppose the people who imply that we must choose to believe in Jesus are not Calvinists, but they are still left to explain in what way a person chooses to believe, --i.e. for what reasons.
Interestingly, Carico was one who implied this 'will to believe' was necessary, but then later has shifted closer to the above Calvinist take. That gives us, "It's simple, all you have to do is accept Christ's free gift, but no, there's nothing you can do on your own to believe its truthfulness in the first place." It suddenly doesn't seem so simple!
Anyway I know I've neglected some of your comments, I will try to get back soon. Cleaning up after a typhoon--second in two weeks!
take care,
abraxas
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 8:53:31 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
Hello,
I don't know about the bold assertion that we can only choose chaotic things.
However, I think it is interesting to consider that when we make choices, we do so based on criteria. However, a question can always be asked: on what did you base your criteria? At some point, it seems fair to say that a choice or a criterion is based on nothing: it is just a choice. That is, choice arises out of freedom, which can be defined as "perfect" contingency -- where choice would not depend on anything. Of course, free will could be an illusion as well; such doesn't seem possible to rule out or confirm absolutely at this point.
This line of thinking is consistent with how we talk within democracies: In answer to such questions as, "Why do such and such?" we will eventually be obliged to respond, "That's just me," and our questioners, in kind, "Oh, right. I knew that." Perhaps there are interesting exceptions to this, however.
About the other stuff:
Calvinism sounds coherentish. But I also think it is coherent to think free will exists, humans can choose God or not, but, in fact, we DON'T! I think sin is contingent on every single person. Original Sin? Simply the first one. I think we are all "the first man" in a way. However, the difference is that there is a whole external structure built on sin in place, ready for our commiseration with! Adam did not have such; Adam and Eve were indeed originals. (Do I believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis? I don't think you are interested in that in this thread, so I will leave it aside.)
So by what means are we saved? Hmm. It seems that God's love is so great that He even calls the sinner. Can God overcome our wills -- break our wills? -- so that we can receive Him will-less? No, we remain sinners: He calls us as such, not as perfect or degraded wills.
Can we die unsaved then? I think it is possible that everyone will be saved, but I don't feel that such will be the case. It seems that some people will will their erasure. Why? How? How not? If someone perpetually flees from the exigency of being a person or a freedom, who's to say they won't be successful in the end? I don't know. However, if someone comes to despair of the ambiguity of their criteria, and despairs of being a person, and then despairs of despair, perhaps they will cry out for rescue from the recursion? It is not very difficult for a sinner to cry out -- even in all irony!! Even without ANYthing that can be called sincerity! As if an actor on stage. But Jesus calls the sinners. I think such a person would fall under that category.
latah!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 9:17:24 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
Also, consider this: another piece of the recursive (paradoxical) puzzle: Continual emphasis on human will is not a necessary thing (one could forget one's will, either in blindness of teh flesh or of the faith, I say) but to recall it to mind again and again and in effect ask God about it all the time is to declare one's insitence on participating somehow in one's salvation. However, if God would let us stand up on our own in some way, would that be tough love, or would that fall short of the perfect love which we can suppose he demonstrates as a perfect deity? Searching for a criteria for a belief is to search for an external (and hence present on earth -- earthly) justification for faith. Doesn't such resemble human expediency or democratic participation in faith (rights oriented), i.e.: rebellion against the soveriegnty of God?
In a way, Christianity is very simple: Jesus calls us to seek shelter in him. .....
Whether we go or not is a hypothetical, and contemplation of the hypotheticals -- eventually! -- is simply procrastination.
We are getting drenched in a storm and Jesus throws open the door to his home and we say, well, perhaps I don't want to go because such would be bowing to the order of wind and rain. I would rather get drenched so I can shake my fist directly at the sky. Or, like Oedipus, when we come upon the warm light from Jesus' inviting window, we say, well, if it isn't ol' fate directing me towards something again: Why should I trust fate? Or, like a democrat, we say, of course I'm coming in to your house directly, but, please, please, don't let me impose on you, I insist; allow me to pay you for my night.
This is fun!
Of course, we could also just go inside and take a frickin' nap, too tired to think, too tired to worry about superfluities, just tired and wet and hungry -- that's a nice feeling!
So, to sum up, perhaps all discussion of the will is for procrastinators: not to say that that is what separates the saved from the unsaved, but that whenever we are so mean as to question the goodness of salvation from something clear and present (is sin clear and present?) and instead scrabble for a redundant criterion, we are procrastinating. However, perhaps procrastination will be the thing that drives us to despair and to despair of despair and to choke on rebellion until the only sound that can emerge from our mouths is "help."
Christianity is a paradox (because questions concerning it are recursive or contain circular terms and non-trivial "self-evidences," the latter which can also be fairly called lies.)
How can I will to be saved? Then how, then, is it salvation if it is you picking yourself by your own bootstraps?
How then can I be saved, period? You are. There's is nothing to do.
Then, what am I being saved from? From the notion that you are not saved -- from the rebellious declaration that God's love is either not good enough or a sham.
Then how can anyone make me change my mind? You don't have to change your mind, because such a state is exactly what God is offering salvation from. He doesn't want you to change your mind and THEN come over to his way of thinking: He's calling you as you are.
Then what am I waiting for? Nothing (ness -- if you want to be fancy).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 9:24:52 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
Incidentally, I don't feel like I am telling you, abraxas, anything you don't know. For all I know, everything you say is, inwardly, a confession of your faith! ha
Perhaps outwardness is crucial, however: y'know, sharing, being a neighbor, not putting the lamp under a lamp shade (especially when passersby are coming possibly in need of warm shelter!)
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 7/30/2008 10:58:33 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 12:45:06 PM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 243
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
However, I think it is interesting to consider that when we make choices, we do so based on criteria. However, a question can always be asked: on what did you base your criteria? At some point, it seems fair to say that a choice or a criterion is based on nothing: it is just a choice.
I think I see. Though I may not always see this regress as a string of choices. Not always anyway. I'm going to try and set some up--
Why did you go to the store? I wanted to buy some eggplant.
Why did you want to buy eggplant? I was hungry.
Why were you hungry? I hadn't eaten.
We could keep going but I think at this point we see some criteria that isn't exactly a matter of choice--hunger. Around that state, on either side, we see concious choices, but a person doesn't consciusly choose to be hungry. (I suppose you could consciously choose to get hungry, by not eating.)
So how does that relate to belief? I'm not really sure.  Let me try another dialogue--
Why did you accept Jesus? Because I'm a sinner and needed to be saved from my sins.
Why do you believe that you needed to be saved from your sins? God says so.
Why do you believe it's truly God saying so?
--etc., and I struggle to see the point where the person made a conscious choice that from then on lent grounding to the other assumptions he makes in the dialogue. Is this the chaos you talk about? It does remind me of a comment of yours about how belief in God can seem logical or illogical, depending on the subject's deep assumptions that serve as the base for their logical reasonings. I thought it was an excellent point, and really how deep do those assumptions rest within us, and how quietly and how difficult to even percieve?
quote:
If someone perpetually flees from the exigency of being a person or a freedom, who's to say they won't be successful in the end? I don't know. However, if someone comes to despair of the ambiguity of their criteria, and despairs of being a person, and then despairs of despair, perhaps they will cry out for rescue from the recursion? It is not very difficult for a sinner to cry out -- even in all irony!! Even without ANYthing that can be called sincerity! As if an actor on stage. But Jesus calls the sinners. I think such a person would fall under that category.
Well I for one was scathed in a similar way--there was a time when I pondered my navel to death, WITHOUT much real-world productivity to balance it, and the "existential malaise" was a dark time. I didn't cry out to a higher power, even in that insincere way you mention, and I can only say that the reason I didn't is because it truly wasn't me to do so, and all that navel-pondering, well that was the kind of thing I was exploring, what was "truly me" and so forth.
Your Drenched-in-a-Storm analogy will help pull this back to the question to the bare bones. Before we can begin to assess your analogy (which has some great imagery), how do we establish a) that there is in fact a storm; and b) which of all doors is the one that leads into a warm, dry home, and not into a courtyard where we're just as wet? How do we make that choice? I just don't see how we can choose to believe any of those things, though we may wind up believing something--to me it looks like choice plays a different role.
It's past midnight and time to close this up. Thanks again for your comments. Challenging to follow at times but a very unique way of looking at things!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why did you choose your belief? - 7/30/2008 1:07:05 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
I chose to believe 53 years ago. I chose to believe because I chose to do so. There were other teens at the same camp that chose not to believe; in the interim some have chose to do so, and sadly some have not.
In all this time I have never doubtet that I made the right choice, even though I have seen many change their mind and choose not to believe; that as of yet has not happened to me.
Now I firmly believe that at what ever juncture in my life that I so choose I can deny my faith and reject Christ. I just have not done so, and firmly hope that I never do.
There have been times in my life (many times) that I did not "Feel" God nor see Him working; nor see any "Evidence" that He was in fact real. But I have never, not even for a second, doubted His esistance, nor His plam for all of mankind.
I jusst consider it very sad that all folks do not believe as I do.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
One cannot decide to believe from his heart like one decides to be a democrat or Republican. One has to be converted to be a Christian which means he has to be born again. Paul didn't wake up one day and decide to become a Christian. He was converted by the Holy Spirit. Belief in God comes from the Holy Spirit, not the human mind as 1 Corinthians 2:14 confirms. So I am always wary of those who say they chose to be a Christian. From my experience with those who claim their belief was a decision, they almost always fall away at some point. 
