YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Flood pertains to YEC
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YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Flood ... - 8/20/2008 6:14:03 PM
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HHV5
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So here's Psalms 104 retelling the Creation of the universe
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul.
O LORD my God, you are very great;
you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
2 He wraps himself in light as with a garment;
he stretches out the heavens like a tent
3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,
flames of fire his servants.
5 He set the earth on its foundations;
it can never be moved.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7 But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
8 they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth.
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Never again did the waters cover the earth.
What's the YEC's response to this passage?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/20/2008 9:12:24 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
So here's Psalms 104 retelling the Creation of the universe
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul.
O LORD my God, you are very great;
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth.
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Never again did the waters cover the earth.
What's the YEC's response to this passage?
Could you be a little more specific as to what the topic of this thread is supposed to be?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/20/2008 9:21:54 PM
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HHV5
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Global flood.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/20/2008 11:28:12 PM
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drmark
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quote:
What's the YEC's response to this passage? Umm, God's word is true. Genesis 7:17-23 states there was a global flood. What specifically do you read from the poetic text of Psalm 104 that you perceive to contradict the historical narrative account of Genesis 7?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 1:21:45 AM
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evry1needsgod
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What's a YEC's response?
"DUH!"
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 7:41:19 AM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What's the YEC's response to this passage? Umm, God's word is true. Genesis 7:17-23 states there was a global flood. What specifically do you read from the poetic text of Psalm 104 that you perceive to contradict the historical narrative account of Genesis 7?
The bolded part.
It's not talking about Noah's flood.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 10:39:41 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It's not talking about Noah's flood. That's your (incorrect) opinion. The text of Psalm 104:8–9 describes a perpetual decree that the waters ‘cannot cross (Hebrew abhar) God's boundary’. The parallel passages Isaiah 54:9 and Jeremiah 5:22 use the same word abhar and refer to the Rainbow Covenant regarding the oceans not being allowed to cross over the boundary of the shore and cover the earth again. Thus it's apparent to me (and most YECs) that Psalm 104:1–5 is referring to Creation and Psalm 104:6–9 is describing the Noahic Flood.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 12:29:41 PM
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HHV5
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1. Psalms Chapter 104 refers to the original Creation and constitution of the Earth and does not refer to Noah's flood.
2. The Hebrew word 'erets' [the earth (at large, or partitively a land) -- common, country, earth, field, ground] most often refers to the local lands in the Bible.
Is not the whole land [erets] before you? Please separate from me: if to the left, then I will go to the right; or if to the right, then I will go to the left." (Genesis 13:9) (The "whole land" was only the land of Canaan)
And the people of all the earth [erets] came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth. (Genesis 41:57) (The people from the Americas did not go to Egypt)
'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land [erets]. (Leviticus 25:9) (The Hebrews were not required to sound a horn throughout the entire earth)
And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines that was in Geba, and the Philistines heard of it. Then Saul blew the trumpet throughout the land [erets], saying, "Let the Hebrews hear." (1 Samuel 13:3) (Obviously, Saul could not have blown a trumpet loud enough to be heard throughout the entire earth)
So when they had gone about through the whole land [erets], they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. (2 Samuel 24:8) (No they didn't go through the entire earth, just the lands of Palestine.)
And they were bringing horses for Solomon from Egypt and from all countries [erets]. (2 Chronicles 9:28) (It is unlikely that the Chinese brought horses to Solomon)
(From The Genesis Flood Why the Bible Says It Must be Local)
< Message edited by HHV5 -- 8/21/2008 12:38:48 PM >
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 12:54:35 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
7:19 The waters completely inundated the earth so that even all the high mountains under the entire sky were covered. 7:20 The waters rose more than twenty feet above the mountains. 7:21 And all living things that moved on the earth died, including the birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all humankind. 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 7:23 So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived.
Every high mountain under the entire sky was covered. God said that the whole earth was affected in not less than 9 different ways in the this passage alone. It has been said before that "all" might not mean "all", but this passage seems to be highly suggestive of a global flood.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 1:28:39 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
and Psalm 104:6–9 is describing the Noahic Flood.
Virtually every commentary disagrees with you on that.
http://godandscience.org/youngearth/psalm104.html
Under the "comparison to other creation texts" is a section on quotes from commentaries.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 1:36:31 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Every high mountain under the entire sky was covered. God said that the whole earth was affected in not less than 9 different ways in the this passage alone. It has been said before that "all" might not mean "all", but this passage seems to be highly suggestive of a global flood.
Frame of reference is key, and Genesis 6 sets that frame of reference as land occupied by sinful men. It is true that it was a superbly extreme flood, in every sense of the word. It *did* cover the entire earth from horizon to horizon -- the earth which humans could see and know. It covered every hill in the basin. All the land known to humans at the time was covered.
I suggest that there is no reason whatsoever to understand that the entire planet is in view here. That is a modern idea based on our global worldview and our likes of reading the Bible hyper-literally in English. The original context just doesn't require it at all.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 1:41:04 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Every high mountain under the entire sky was covered. God said that the whole earth was affected in not less than 9 different ways in the this passage alone. It has been said before that "all" might not mean "all", but this passage seems to be highly suggestive of a global flood.
Frame of reference is key, and Genesis 6 sets that frame of reference as land occupied by sinful men. It is true that it was a superbly extreme flood, in every sense of the word. It *did* cover the entire earth from horizon to horizon -- the earth which humans could see and know. It covered every hill in the basin. All the land known to humans at the time was covered.
I suggest that there is no reason whatsoever to understand that the entire planet is in view here. That is a modern idea based on our global worldview and our likes of reading the Bible hyper-literally in English. The original context just doesn't require it at all.
Alright, PB. The ball is in your court. Other than the need for the geologic record to not be wiped out by a global flood, what reason do we have to believe that the text is written from the author's limited frame of reference rather than the third person omniscient point of view?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 2:08:07 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Alright, PB. The ball is in your court. Other than the need for the geologic record to not be wiped out by a global flood, what reason do we have to believe that the text is written from the author's limited frame of reference rather than the third person omniscient point of view?
I think it's based purely on textual evidence. Compare the same Hebrew words for "whole earth" in other parts of Hebrew scripture. Rarely if ever do they refer to the whole planet.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 4:06:54 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Alright, PB. The ball is in your court. Other than the need for the geologic record to not be wiped out by a global flood, what reason do we have to believe that the text is written from the author's limited frame of reference rather than the third person omniscient point of view?
I think it's based purely on textual evidence. Compare the same Hebrew words for "whole earth" in other parts of Hebrew scripture. Rarely if ever do they refer to the whole planet.
Rarely, if ever is it said in no less than 9 different ways that it IS referring to the whole earth. All the animals were killed. All of humanity was killed. All the mountains under the entire sky were covered. Yes, the whole earth is made reference to in other places, but never with the kind of global emphasis like we see in this passage. The author emphasized that all the birds that inhabited the land were killed. Of course it was global. Are you gonna kill all the birds with a local flood? Did God include a wave of stupidity in every animal and person so that none of them managed to swim or fly out of this valley?
Besides all this, I don't think that that exactly answers the question. There's no textual evidence at all that we're reading this passage from a third person limited perspective as you have suggested. If there was, perhaps a place where it said, "And Noah looked out, and indeed every mountain under the entire sky was covered... every bird... every spider, etc." then maybe you could say that we have reason to believe that it is third person limited. But it doesn't indicate that, so what reason do we have for believing that it is limited to Noah's frame of reference?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 4:16:50 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Virtually every commentary disagrees with you on that. Virtually everyone that OE proponents use to prop up their faith in man's "science".
(edited by Moderator)
quote:
I think it's based purely on textual evidence. I think it's based purely on the magisterial misuse of "science" over Scripture, but no no OE theorist will admit to that simple fact!
< Message edited by Consecrated2God -- 8/21/2008 4:24:35 PM >
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/21/2008 4:37:02 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Virtually every commentary disagrees with you on that. Virtually everyone that OE proponents use to prop up their faith in man's "science".
(edited by Moderator)
quote:
I think it's based purely on textual evidence. I think it's based purely on the magisterial misuse of "science" over Scripture, but no no OE theorist will admit to that simple fact!
Wow, Lisa sure is fast.
I would like to note, that "virtually every commentary" was actually a list of 11 commentators. I'm sure a much larger list could have been compiled if the author had taken the time to do so. Lists could be compiled of people who would interpret the last half of the passage as referring to the Flood as well.
But either way I don't think that it is necessary that the passage be about either the creation, the flood, both, or neither. It looks like he might be talking about the creation because in one sentence he mentions that God set the foundations, but that's the only part of the passage that is definitely talking about the creation; the rest could be talking about something completely different.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 9:46:57 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Virtually every commentary disagrees with you on that. Virtually every commentary on Genesis 1 disagrees with OE proponents, that six serial numbered evenings and mornings means zillions of years, but that doesn't seem to dissuade you, PolarBear!
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 2:53:06 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Rarely, if ever is it said in no less than 9 different ways that it IS referring to the whole earth. All the animals were killed. All of humanity was killed. All the mountains under the entire sky were covered. Yes, the whole earth is made reference to in other places, but never with the kind of global emphasis like we see in this passage. The author emphasized that all the birds that inhabited the land were killed. Of course it was global. Are you gonna kill all the birds with a local flood? Did God include a wave of stupidity in every animal and person so that none of them managed to swim or fly out of this valley?
I don't think you get it. All the uses of "every" in the entire flood story are bound by the limits of the frame of reference. Is that really so complicated?
quote:
Besides all this, I don't think that that exactly answers the question. There's no textual evidence at all that we're reading this passage from a third person limited perspective as you have suggested. If there was, perhaps a place where it said, "And Noah looked out, and indeed every mountain under the entire sky was covered... every bird... every spider, etc." then maybe you could say that we have reason to believe that it is third person limited. But it doesn't indicate that, so what reason do we have for believing that it is limited to Noah's frame of reference?
I think Genesis 6 sets it with God's declaration that wicked humans are to be wiped out.
How is it different where Moses writes that "all the world" came to buy grain from Joseph, and when Paul wrote that "the whole world" has heard about the faith of the church of Rome in Romans 1? Did the Australian aboriginies go to buy grain from Joseph and hear about the faith of the church in Rome? If not, then your position is not consistent. Why would those two examples not also be from God's global perspective?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 3:03:28 PM
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PolarBear
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Regarding commentaries, do you guys know of a single commentary that was written before Henry Morris' time that says Psalm 104:9 has the Flood in mind? If so I'll be impressed. (I believe there are a small number of them from the last few decades from a decidedly young earth perspective that do.)
Genesis 1 -- indeed most of them tend to emphasize literal days, but I don't think "virtually all of them disagree with OE". Not sure the percentage though, I haven't looked at many. Also emphasizing the word "day" isn't all that wrong -- it is after all the language of Scripture. For that reason I don't have a great problem with statements of faith such as Westminster that says God created all things "in the space of six days." Even I have little doubt that such is the most obvious first reading of it, I just believe that when you dig deeper and compare these "days" to the rest of the Bible, you begin to get a different picture.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 5:34:16 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
Regarding commentaries, do you guys know of a single commentary that was written before Henry Morris' time that says Psalm 104:9 has the Flood in mind? If so I'll be impressed. (I believe there are a small number of them from the last few decades from a decidedly young earth perspective that do.)
Theologian Albert Barnes (1798-1870) wrote this concerning Psalm 104:9
"Psa 104:9
Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over - See Job_26:10, note; Job_38:10-11, note.
That they turn not again to cover the earth - As it was before the dry land appeared; or as the earth was when “darkness was upon the face of the deep” Gen_1:2, and when all was mingled earth and water. It is “possible” that in connection with this, the psalmist may also have had his eye on the facts connected with the deluge in the time of Noah, and the promise then made that the world should no more be destroyed by a flood, Gen_9:11, Gen_9:15."
(Emphasis his)
Matthew Henry (1662-1714) Wrote this regarding Psalm 104:9
"(2.) He keeps it within bounds, Psa_104:9. The waters are forbidden to pass over the limits set them; they may not, and therefore they do not, turn again to cover the earth. Once they did, in Noah's flood, because God bade them, but never since, because he forbids them, having promised not to drown the world again."
(Emphasis mine)
Can be found here - http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc3.Ps.cv.html
These two mentioned are a bit older than a few decades, so is this what yo were looking for? Are you impressed?
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 5:49:20 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Also, John Gill (1697-1771) writes this:
"Verse 9. Thou hast set a bound, that they may not pass over,.... The Targum adds, "to the rolling waves of the sea." Set doors with bolts and bars, cliffs, rocks, and shores: and, what is more surprising, sand, which is penetrable, flexible, and moveable, is set as a perpetual bound to the raging ocean and its waves, which they cannot pass over: see Job 38:8. So the Lord has set a bound to the proud waters of afflictions, and says, Thus far shall ye go, and no farther; and to the life of man, which he cannot exceed, Job 14:5. But he has given man a law, as a rule to walk by, as the boundary of his conversation, and this he transgresses; in which he is less tractable than the raging sea and its waves. That they turn not again to cover the earth; as they did when it was first made, Psalm 104:6 that is, not without the divine leave and power; for they did turn again and cover the earth, at the time of the flood; but never shall more. Some think there is no need to make this exception; since this was written after the flood, and when God had swore that the waters should no more go over the earth, Isaiah 54:9."
(Emphasis mine)
Can be found here: http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/psalm/gill/psalm104.htm
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 10:21:42 PM
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drmark
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Well done, e1ng! Gill's commentary also references Isaiah 54:9 as I mentioned in post #7. I wonder if Jeremiah 5:22 is referenced in any other commentary of Psalms 104. I recall both those prophets lived somewhat before Henry Morris' time. 
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/22/2008 11:24:27 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
I wonder if Jeremiah 5:22 is referenced in any other commentary of Psalms 104.
Well, no need to wonder. I should have continued what Matthew Henry wrote where I apparently stopped prematurely. Here is a continuation of Matthew Henry's commentary on Psalm 104. The underline is the part I left out.
"(2.) He keeps it within bounds, Psa_104:9. The waters are forbidden to pass over the limits set them; they may not, and therefore they do not, turn again to cover the earth. Once they did, in Noah's flood, because God bade them, but never since, because he forbids them, having promised not to drown the world again. God himself glorifies in this instance of his power (Job_38:8, etc.) and uses it as an argument with us to fear him, Jer_5:22. This, if duly considered, would keep the world in awe of the Lord and his goodness, That the waters of the sea would soon cover the earth if God did not restrain them."
quote:
I recall both those prophets lived somewhat before Henry Morris' time.
Yeah, just a couple years 
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/23/2008 7:42:55 AM
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PolarBear
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Interesting. My reading of those seems to indicate that the commentary authors did not necessarily have the flood as the primary focus of Ps104:6-9, but simply noted that flood waters did once after the original creation.
That's a bit different from modern YEC material, which specifically states that the verses directly related to the flood's activities.
Still it shows that they believe a global flood happened, even if not emphasized as much as modern YEC do.
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RE: YEC & the Flood, and anything related to how the Fl... - 8/23/2008 9:32:12 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Still it shows that they believe a global flood happened, even if not emphasized as much as modern YEC do. I appreciate your humble acknowledgement, PolarBear. Could it be that "modern YECs" emphasize the global flood (and other historically accurate facts from Scripture) because it's only been in recent times that some Believers have elected to re-interpret the text to match up with "modern science"?
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