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discipline question - 9/27/2008 4:23:19 PM
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nerakr
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My 4 1/2 year old has quite a temper when he's tired and fighting his nap. He will throw things and hit me or his little sister. His speech therapist/dd preschool teacher says to leave the room, but he'll just follow me. At the moment he's outside, and I'm sure he thinks he's won. If I'm having these problems now, what am I to do next year when he doesn't want to learn to read or count to 100 or learn to write, or whatever?
Suggestions please!!!!
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RE: discipline question - 9/27/2008 6:26:56 PM
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cynthia
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This thread being moved from Homeschooling to the Parenting folder.
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RE: discipline question - 9/27/2008 6:45:19 PM
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NotDoneYet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nerakr
My 4 1/2 year old has quite a temper when he's tired and fighting his nap. He will throw things and hit me or his little sister. His speech therapist/dd preschool teacher says to leave the room, but he'll just follow me. At the moment he's outside, and I'm sure he thinks he's won. If I'm having these problems now, what am I to do next year when he doesn't want to learn to read or count to 100 or learn to write, or whatever?
Suggestions please!!!!
Drop his little fanny on his bed and make it quite clear that his behavior is NOT acceptable. I have an almost 4 year old with a temper...she goes in her room, door closed until she can get control of herself again...
If he's hitting, pick him up, make eye contact and say "NO! We DO NOT hit" and in the bedroom he goes. If he's throwing things, Pick him up, make eye contact and tell him "NO! We do NOT throw things" and make him pick them all up.
He does these things because he feels he CAN...it's up to you to make sure he knows he can't.
NDY (who's on monster #7 with a temper)
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RE: discipline question - 9/27/2008 7:14:52 PM
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manda59
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Are you sure he still needs a nap at his age? Maybe his reaction is because he just doesn't want a nap any more. Have you asked him about it?
With my two (who had dropped all daytime naps by 18 months old) I changed the "nap" time to "chill-out time" with resting on a bean bag and reading, listening to music, or watching a DVD. So long as they spent time relaxing, they were fine. And it was far better than fighting them to make them nap when they didn't want to.
Also, for how long has he been having speech therapy? What is his specific issue with his speech?
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 1:44:16 AM
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locomom
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1) He needs to learn that these behaviors are not acceptable and will not be tolerated.
2) He needs to learn to handle his anger.
3) He needs to learn the words for what he is feeling.
4) Well, duh. The above 3 are obvious.
Give him two choices to handle his temper. First he needs a way to take himself in hand and cool off. This is not punishment or consequences, but the way all of us really should handle our "hot" moments. He needs to know some acceptable ways of dealing with his desire to pound something by hitting his pillow, hitting or kicking a karate pad, drawing angry pictures, etc. Then when he doesn't choose one or doesn't let you redirect him to one, he has consequences. He will learn the words for self-expression as you help him understand what is the matter at the moment.
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 7:22:13 AM
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nerakr
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I'm trying to do a "quiet time in your room" approach. The only problem is, there's no guarantee he'll stay in his room. I've never been able to do timeouts because of that. And the matter I posted, yes, he needed a nap. His behavior was typical of fighting his nap. If I wanted to take a nap just for the sake of taking a nap, I would have put him in his room at 12:30. This episode started around 2:00.
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 7:59:14 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nerakr
I'm trying to do a "quiet time in your room" approach. The only problem is, there's no guarantee he'll stay in his room. I've never been able to do timeouts because of that.
Timeouts are IMO better done elsewhere than in their bedroom, otherwise they can end up associating being in their room with being punishment and it can affect their ability to relax there.
Is it possible that he now thinks he is being punished when you try to put him in his room for a nap?
But can't explain that in words so it comes out in anger?
If you're just wanting him to have a quiet time, why does it have to be in his room?
quote:
And the matter I posted, yes, he needed a nap. His behavior was typical of fighting his nap.
What was/is his behaviour like when you think he needs a nap?
< Message edited by manda59 -- 9/28/2008 8:11:20 AM >
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 11:16:40 AM
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stellaluna
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Most parents I know with small kids don't do timeouts in bedrooms. They do them wherever they happen to be, or in a common area, so that they can keep an eye on the kid and make sure they stay where they are supposed to. (And not playing!)
And 4 1/2 seems kind of old for a nap.
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 11:59:39 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
And 4 1/2 seems kind of old for a nap.
My two were in full-time school by then (9.15-3.15)! They did have a "chill-out" area, with beanbags and cushions, where children could lay down, or even nap, if they wanted to, and they did have a "quiet time" after lunch, when a story was read, but most children most days didn't nap.
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doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 12:59:23 PM
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zoebob
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The preschool part of the school where I work has a nap time. Some of those kids are there from 7:15-5:30. They have mats and turn off all the lights and have a nap time.
My DD2 slept for 2 hrs a day until she started Kindergarten at 5.
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RE: discipline question - 9/28/2008 3:49:48 PM
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pbaribeault
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Firstly, pay really close attention to what locomom posted. Nothing is going to work in controlling his temper if he does not understand his anger and/or does not actually have the skills to control it if he wanted to.
Secondly,
If he will not stay in the room where you are confining him (for a time out, whether during nap-resistance or not) you have some options:
(1) Continue to replace him until he learns that trying to leave is pointless
(2) Stand outside the door and hold it closed
(3) Use child-proofing equipment to make it impossible for him to open his door during these times
(4) Use a real lock on his door
(5) Add an extra consiquence every time he leaves his room when he has been told to stay (lots of options here)
(6) Have a 'worse' location that you can take him to if he leaves his room when he has been told to stay
Having a means of actually containing him, if that is your chosen means of giving consistences for throwing & hitting, will give your parenting more 'teeth'.
Thirdly,
As far as nap / quiet time resistance -- try making it a nicer time for him. Perhaps a snack, or a stash of 'fresh' library books dolled out one-per-day for quiet time, or a set of toys that he only sees at that time, or a call from the not-at-home parent to settle him in... lots of options here. Then, if he resists his 'quiet time' you can say, "If you don't want a quiet time, you can have a nap instead." and then prepare to take away all the nice quiet time things. Just watch him backtrack to wanting his quiet time!
Also, do find the time just before over-tired behavior starts to be noticeable. If you are doing this only when you've already seen that he is coping poorly with life, then, yeah, he's gonna cope poorly with being settled for quiet time.
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RE: discipline question - 9/29/2008 6:43:07 AM
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nerakr
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I'm not confining him only when he seems over tired. I try to put him in his room for either nap or quiet time (his choice) at 12:30. Saturday I decided not to, then at 2:00 he started hitting "just for the fun of it." He knows what is expected of him. When his father is home at naptime it's a different story. Yesterday my husband walked into the living room and clapped his hands twice (which he's never done before). My son allowed his father to pick him up and take him to his room. He didn't sleep, but he played until 3:00. And, yes, he still needs a nap. Some days, when he chooses to stay in his room, it may be after 2:00 before he goes to sleep. If he doesn't sleep, my husband may find him asleep in the living room well before his 8:00 bedtime or he'll put himself to bed early.
I can't move naptime on a consistent basis. I work four nights a week and have to take him to a babysitter around 3:00. That's why I'm trying to change into a quiet time instead.
I have tried taking his toys, holding the door closed, etc. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
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RE: discipline question - 9/29/2008 8:59:22 PM
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pbaribeault
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So, it sounds like your son understands you very well when it comes to discipline. If he resists stuff, sometimes his tactics work. That's why he's doing it. As long as his tactics keep working, he'll keep on using them to arrange his life the way he wants it.
So, you've got 2 choices:
(1) Let him run his own life
(2) Find a way to give your commands teeth
Either way, arguing with him and having daily grief over nap/quiet time is not sensible. If you are not going to win the argument, 'trying' to make him do what you want just hurts your relationship. If you are going to win the argument, you have to be prepared to do what it's going to take to actually win. That takes patience, determination and a level head.
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RE: discipline question - 9/30/2008 5:59:59 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nerakr
If he doesn't sleep, my husband may find him asleep in the living room well before his 8:00 bedtime or he'll put himself to bed early.
Personally, I'd consider 8 oclock quite late for a 4 yr old's bedtime. If his bedtime was brought forward by an hour or so, to 7 or earlier, he might not need the nap in the day anyway.
Your son might well be in the phase of, at a certain time of day, being too tired to behave properly, but not tired enough to sleep. An earlier bedtime, plus a quiet time in the day, might well sort that out.
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RE: discipline question - 9/30/2008 6:38:32 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Your son might well be in the phase of, at a certain time of day, being too tired to behave properly, but not tired enough to sleep. An earlier bedtime, plus a quiet time in the day, might well sort that out.
True. That's what we've discovered with our middle child. He doesn't nap anymore but he *needs* an earlier bedtime or he's miserable.
However. OP, it sounds like in your relationship with your son, he's "the Boss". You need to find a way to reverse that. In our family, spanking gives weight to commands if they are disobeyed. If you're not willign to spank, there are a lot of good suggestions here. The most important thing is that you are consistent. If you discipline 90% of the time, but let 10% slide, he will keep doing whatever it is he's not supposed to do in the hopes that you will let it slide.
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 9:02:18 AM
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buckifn
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this is drastic- but it's been proven to work quite a few times. If his tantrums continue when he is placed in his room strip his room of everything besides the bed and sheets.
Allow him to earn back a toy, an item he likes, on a gradual basis as he learns self control.
He has got to learn you the adult are in control and not him.
Are you calm when you correct him? If he sees you angry etc it is going to be more of a reason for him to be that way.
I didn't notice if you are the mom or dad, but how does the other parent handle this? It's very important you both are on the same page.
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 10:00:42 AM
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emjayzee
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I have an almost-5 yo who could still nap every day, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I have found that I cannot let her nap everyday or she will not go to bed at bedtime. I have opted for quiet time instead of nap time on most days. If she's really tired, she'll fall asleep on her own (sometimes just laying on the couch, which is fine with me!) and if not, she just recharges a little.
What do you do for quiet time? It may help to transition him from play time to quiet time by reading a story or setting out specific books or toys to choose to play with. Also, let him know quiet time is coming up so he can be prepared for it. One of the biggest problems I have with my 4yo and 6yo is if I try to rush them or suddenly change activities. Giving them a 5-minute warning lets them know what to expect, and what is expected of them.
Maybe 12:30 is too early? If it is right after lunch, he may need to run around a little. Try 1 o'clock instead. That still gives him at least a solid hour of down time before going to the babysitter.
The most important thing, as others have noted, is to be consistent. Time-outs should not be in their room, but somewhere you can keep an eye on them. I recommend using a timer so the kids know without a doubt when the timeout is over- no them getting up to ask you, no you forgetting how long it's been- standard and reliable.
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 10:43:44 AM
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RichLP
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Question.
What if the adult bends over and looks at the "violent, about to hit" child in the eye, but from a standing-up position which clearly shows the child the adult is bigger and towers over him, and says, "what? Do you want to hit daddy(mommy/uncle/grandpa)?"
Is this excessive? Or simply intimidation, which means the child may well learn not to hit (but not because it's wrong and because he will be responding to a figure that instills fear in him?)
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 11:10:46 AM
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Mrs.X
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Not sure, Rich.....It doesn't sit well with me though. I don't think our kids should necessarily fear us (in a scared kind of way) but respect us because they want to, because we are their loving parent, not because we are bigger than them. Who knows, some kids could take that as "I can do what I want because I'm bigger" and then start picking on the smaller kids.
I just re-read what you wrote, and it's impossible for me to hear the tone your voice when you say, "What? Do you want to hit ____?" I think it all depends on the tone and body language. I often give my kids the evil eye and point because that is my silent command to tell them to stop doing what they're doing.
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A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 11:18:32 AM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.X
Not sure, Rich.....It doesn't sit well with me though. I don't think our kids should necessarily fear us (in a scared kind of way) but respect us because they want to, because we are their loving parent, not because we are bigger than them. Who knows, some kids could take that as "I can do what I want because I'm bigger" and then start picking on the smaller kids.
I just re-read what you wrote, and it's impossible for me to hear the tone your voice when you say, "What? Do you want to hit ____?" I think it all depends on the tone and body language. I often give my kids the evil eye and point because that is my silent command to tell them to stop doing what they're doing.
I didn't scream or shout and I didn't grimace. But I did say firmly to him, "do you want to hit Uncle Rich?" with a firm tone and a serious face. He backed down and eventually put his arm down.
Now tell me if I overdid it with this scenario.
One time while visiting this same family, this temperamental 3 1/2 year old slapped his older sister (who is 8) very hard in the face. I thought she was going to cry, and I've only seen her hit him back once (by stomping on his foot).
I immediately picked him up and placed him on a piece of furniture that put him on the same eye level as me. I was angrily and asked him in a slightly raised tone of voice and with an angry face, "why did you hit your sister?"
For the first few seconds, the boy was furious. He has a bad temper, and his chest heaved with anger; his face said "I am MAD!"
But I insisted, and continued to stare straight into his eyes with the same firm face. And I asked, "why did you hit her?"
Eventually he softened and I then said in a calmer tone, "say sorry."
He did say sorry. I then called his sister over, put him down, and told them to hug each other. They hugged... and they moved along.
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 11:32:49 AM
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Mrs.X
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From: Newberg, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I immediately picked him up and placed him on a piece of furniture that put him on the same eye level as me. I was angrily and asked him in a slightly raised tone of voice and with an angry face, "why did you hit your sister?"
I think the motions you went through were absolutely correct as a babysitter. If he was my kid, he would have gotten a spanking by me, but as a babysitter timeout is perfect. But, I do think a more of a dissapointed tone and look would have been better than an angry tone and angry face. Making a big deal about the victim helps too. "Oh, sister are you OK, are you hurt? You poor thing."
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From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: discipline question - 10/1/2008 7:40:41 PM
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pbaribeault
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As I've mentioned (probably too thoroughly) before, I don't think anger is necessary in this situation -- whether it's a real emotion in response to the incident or a 'false' anger intended to intimidate through theatrics. (1) I think it's lazy and (2) it's an example that emotional regulation is not so important when you get to be an adult.
Real "intimidation" is the demonstration of where the power lies in a relationship. That power lies with me, and I don't have to be angry to do the right thing and discipline my children. My 3 year old knows that the most "dangerous" thing I can say is a calm, matter-of-fact, almost cheerful, "Nope." That's when she knows that I'm through with giving commands and I'm about to give a demonstration (usually the removal of an item, turning something off, or offering her the chance to use her 'spot' or be carried to her room until she wants to use her spot). All of this I can do in a cool adult manner, without theatrics or indulging my own negative reactiveness.
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). If this is mostly a naptime behavior, I'd try a new approach & make it just quiet time.
