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[Poll]
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To Circ or Not To Circ
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| We did circumcise |
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| We will circumcise |
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| We didn't circumcise |
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| We won't circumcise |
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| We are split on our decision |
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| We have not even talked about it.... |
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| What is circumcision? |
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| Did circ and regret it... |
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| didn't circ and regret it... |
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Total Votes : 113
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(last vote on : 7/26/2008 9:11:01 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 3/8/2008 2:10:20 PM
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macokjc
Posts: 255
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What an interesting thread of conversation - to say the least. I don't know that much about it. We have one son (8) who was circumcised. I was in the next room when it was done and he barely let out a peep. I'm sure it's different for all babies and I don't have an opinion on the procedure one way or the other.
This is my comment. This is supposed to be a Christian website and forum. There is much direction in the Bible that the husbands are the heads of the house; and there seems to be an underlined theme of rebellion here. (I don't care what your husband says, etc........) We are not talking about abuse here, we are simply talking about a medical procedure that is very common and has been done literally millions of times over. So, if you are on opposite side of your husband on this matter (no matter what side it is), I think the Bible gives a very clear answer - it doesn't matter who will hold the baby most.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 3/8/2008 2:14:40 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10258
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I think this can be such a big issue for people that both parents need to agree on something. I think if either strongly feels it shouldn't be done, then it shouldn't be done, at least until both can agree. It's not something that can be undone.
Thankfully, it has never been an issue between my husband and I. We both felt strongly that it should be done for our boys.
_____________________________
He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
~Psalm 91:4~
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 3/8/2008 2:22:24 PM
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manda59
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
There is much direction in the Bible that the husbands are the heads of the house; and there seems to be an underlined theme of rebellion here.
Not at all - many here would disagree with your interpretation of men being the head of the house, and would say that submission to one another is mutual, and that husband and wife lead together as a team, not one lording it over the other. But that's a separate discussion for another thread.
quote:
We are not talking about abuse here, we are simply talking about a medical procedure that is very common and has been done literally millions of times over
To me it is (unless there are medical reasons or genetic predispositions) a non-essential medical procedure that brings with it too many risks. Why subject your baby boy to pain and risks unless it is necessary?
Thankfully it's not a decision we had to make, since in the UK only about 6% of baby boys are circumcised each year, and it is not done as routine - so it was a non-issue for us.
< Message edited by manda59 -- 3/8/2008 2:30:39 PM >
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 3/10/2008 3:28:33 PM
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reach
Posts: 1330
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I would because I know two boys that had to have it done when they were teenagers. Yikes. I would not want my son to remember that.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 3/12/2008 10:52:19 PM
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jennleigh
Posts: 91
Joined: 12/6/2007
From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
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quote:
27 weeks pregnant. It's a boy!! David William is due June 9, 2008!!
EmilyAnn,
I am due the same day as you are! Congrats and I hope you are even slightly less miserable than I am at this point; this is my fourth boy and I had forgotten how miserable those last 12 weeks or so can be!
As to the post:
We circ'd all three of our boys, simply because DH is circ'd and we didn't want them to be different. Looking back now, I can't see that as a seriously valid argument for circ'ing; however, we were very young and were flying by the seat of our pants. Now that we have another one due in a few months, the issue has once again presented itself and to be honest, I'm not sure what we'll decide, but most likely we will have it done. I can't give you any data or statistics or journaled medical reports to back up my argument (or lack thereof) but it just seems that we will.
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God Bless,
Jennifer
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/8/2008 1:40:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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I am sure a lot of what I am about to post has already been more than covered. But as a parent of a newborn baby boy, I feel inclined to share. These were my two posts from a thread where a mom was asking about what day to get it done for her son:
How about not doing it at all? How about not taking your newborn baby boy and mutilating his penis?
Circumcision destroys thousands (if not millions) of nerve cells and does away with a vital portion of a man's sexual organ. It is akin to taking a newborn girl and cutting her clitoris off or in two pieces.
And people wonder why so many men, in this country, have erectile problems, Viagra issues, problems keeping it up, etc..
Our baby boy was born just two months ago this week.. and it took a lot of talking and research for my wife to not want to circumcise him. My sister is an RN and was so happy to hear we had decided NOT to do it.
Our doctor, who delivered our baby boy, came into our room the day after my wife had given birth. He asked, "So, are you going to circumcise him or ?" When we told him we were not going to he was very happy to hear it.
Do look at the pros and cons of doing it/not doing it. My lowly advice is to leave him the way God is sending him.
Someone then replied by saying that it must be good and needed because God ordered the ancient Israelites to do the same
God commanded it of Israel as a way to differentiate them between other human beings. There is no need for it today, neither medically nor spiritually.
Also, the negatives linked to being circumcised are ever present. I am sure everyone posting in this thread is a female except for me, so how about we start splitting down the middle the clitorises of all newborn girls?
Same thing.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/8/2008 2:03:05 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5091
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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There *are* reason to circ and some of them are medical. Like I have stated earlier in this thread DH and his male relatives(cousins, uncle, father) all have problems with UTI's and other stuff in that region. Every last one of them who was not circ'ed at birth ended up needing it by the time they were in their teens. Will we take that chance? Nope, we won't.
Circumcision and FGM are not nearly the same thing.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/8/2008 2:24:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
There *are* reason to circ and some of them are medical.
Yes, and there are reasons not to as well. Reasons such as erectile dysfunction, lack of sensation, etc..
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Like I have stated earlier in this thread DH and his male relatives(cousins, uncle, father) all have problems with UTI's and other stuff in that region. Every last one of them who was not circ'ed at birth ended up needing it by the time they were in their teens.
Due to two things - lack of proper care and hygiene and or extreme lack of foreskin. And I understand this part of the argument, no problem.
BUT many babies (like I was and my son) are born with a good amount of flexibility there, good foreskin, etc.. so there is no need for it to be done whatsoever.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Will we take that chance? Nope, we won't.
I'd hope you at least see if it is even needed after his birth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Circumcision and FGM are not nearly the same thing.
Eh, many in the medical field would beg to differ. Of course there are two sides to this topic, but the process is only NOT seen as the same as FGM by some because of cultural reasons. In fact, the U.S. is one of the few places in the world where it is done on such a large and frequent basis.
In the UK only 5% of baby boys get circumcised. In Latin America it is also not widely seen.
It's largely a cultural thing and even here in the U.S. the trend to do this is declining rapidly.
Yes, and there are reasons not to as well. Especially when a baby is born with enough foreskin and flexibility to not need it. Some parents simply do it because they think it is required, as if it is the norm.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/8/2008 7:09:36 PM >
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/8/2008 8:41:05 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
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Some FGM's (depends on the region/country/tribe) consists of simply splitting the clitoris (just the clit) into two separate pieces. Not necessarily removing it entirely. So we're both right.. depending on what exact FGM we're talking about.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/8/2008 8:47:01 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5091
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some FGM's (depends on the region/country/tribe) consists of simply splitting the clitoris (just the clit) into two separate pieces. Not necessarily removing it entirely. So we're both right.. depending on what exact FGM we're talking about.
I've studied alot about FGM, and some of it involves sewing the vaginal opening shut after putting stones, sticks, sometimes cloth into it. There is no way you can compare that to circ'ing.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:07:29 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Some FGM's (depends on the region/country/tribe) consists of simply splitting the clitoris (just the clit) into two separate pieces. Not necessarily removing it entirely. So we're both right.. depending on what exact FGM we're talking about.
Even, so, FGM has absolutely *no* basis in the medical/health/cleanliness realm whatsoever. Doctors agree on that. It is generally born out of control of women's sexuality, and this mild form you talk of is not at all the most common. More common is the type Ryanne mentioned, coupled with no pain relief and unhygenic conditions in most of the world.
However some, even many, doctors agree that male circumcision *can* have health and hygiene benefits. Some doctors believe it is better than remaining uncircumcised.
I don't see how you can possibly compare the two.
Again, why do you think so many American/Western men need Viagra, have erectile problems, etc?
Due to the loss of sensation, due from the effects of being circumcised. We need some men in this conversation, this is like me being in a thread about menstruation and trying to tell a group of women how and what it feels like.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:09:24 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Some FGM's (depends on the region/country/tribe) consists of simply splitting the clitoris (just the clit) into two separate pieces. Not necessarily removing it entirely. So we're both right.. depending on what exact FGM we're talking about.
Even, so, FGM has absolutely *no* basis in the medical/health/cleanliness realm whatsoever. Doctors agree on that. It is generally born out of control of women's sexuality, and this mild form you talk of is not at all the most common. More common is the type Ryanne mentioned, coupled with no pain relief and unhygenic conditions in most of the world.
However some, even many, doctors agree that male circumcision *can* have health and hygiene benefits. Some doctors believe it is better than remaining uncircumcised.
I don't see how you can possibly compare the two.
had to mention also that God never called His people to do FGM's...He called the MALES to be circumcised. I am sorry, but there are too many things that science is way behind God's infinite wisdom on...there are too many times that it takes them ages to figure out that DUH, God's way was the best way all along. So I tend to lean more towards circ'ing simply because God wanted it done for His people. Obviously there was a reason there...and I don't think it was just so they would look different!!!
It was done for reasons of being placed separate for God - as a symbolism of things to come and them being under the Law.
What you're saying is a bit odd because it insinuates that God made a pretty big mistake in our design and it has to be remedied shortly after birth.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:17:34 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10258
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
Again, why do you think so many American/Western men need Viagra, have erectile problems, etc?
I personally don't think this has a whit to do with circumcision. I think it has more to do with other health issues AND I do think our cultures' focus on sexuality via pornography, soft porn everywhere, and false images of our bodies. Also, I think it is part of our culture's "forever young" mentality. When people get older, their bodies change.
Earthless, can I ask what your goal is here? Do you honestly think you will sway those of us who are pro-circ (or at least pro-circ if the parents want to do it)? We've heard all these things before, and for one reason or another, we ain't buying. Also, to compare circumcision with female genital mutilation destroys much of the validity of your argument. They are not at all the same, and God NEVER commanded FGM for any reason.
For us, the decision is mostly medical. I worked in a hospital and was astounded at the number of young men and old men who needed to be circ'd...anywhere from 12 to 92. I personally would rather have it done when my boys won't remember it.
< Message edited by PrincessDonna -- 4/9/2008 8:26:13 AM >
_____________________________
He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
~Psalm 91:4~
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:18:41 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2508
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
had to mention also that God never called His people to do FGM's...He called the MALES to be circumcised.
That was part of my point. Sorry, I should have been clear about that.
Earthless, do you have any studies to indicate that Viagra use is a result of circumcision? There are any number of things that cause impotence, and I've never read that circ is one of them. On top of that, I don't think *all* sales of Viagra are because men actually have any trouble. I had aquaintances in highschool who were experimenting it to "enhance" their promiscuity, thinking it would make things even better.  On the other side of that, just because people don't use Viagra doesn't mean that things are all fine and dandy. I am sure some folks accept loss of that particular ability as a natural result of aging.
My dh doesn't post on the net, but his male perspective is, circumcision is a good thing and beneficial for health and hygiene. He is much more insistent on it than, me actually, and in his own country as a health worker he performed a few himself.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:41:44 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6083
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Earthless, do you have any studies to indicate that Viagra use is a result of circumcision?
None, though I am sure I could Google and find something to counter with. I have no studies, nothing but personal opinion, empty rhetoric, guesses, and assumptions.
I just don't like how so many Americans rush to do things that may not be necessary. As long as people do know that it is not an absolute, not something that HAS to be done for every male. Again, please bear in mind that over 90% of all other nations in the world do not do it and those men are fine and reproducing. Often times at a much higher rate than Americans.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 11:21:40 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10258
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
I just don't like how so many Americans rush to do things that may not be necessary. As long as people do know that it is not an absolute, not something that HAS to be done for every male. Again, please bear in mind that over 90% of all other nations in the world do not do it and those men are fine and reproducing. Often times at a much higher rate than Americans.
Also bear in mind that there are legitimate reasons for doing so, and if the parents have done the appropriate research and decide to have it done, there is nothing wrong with doing so.
One thing I do take issue with is parents that are not willing to be there with their child during the procedure. If you'd be there while your child got an IV, had blood drawn, or had stitches for an injury, you should also be there for this. Many doctors and hospitals are not comfortable with mom and/or dad being there, but they will allow it if you insist. I think if neither parent is willing to be there and watch it be done, maybe they do need to rethink why they are choosing circumcision for their child.
_____________________________
He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
~Psalm 91:4~
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 2:14:18 PM
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JoyfulWife
Posts: 233
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: The South
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I am undecided at this point - but since we are expecting a new little one in October, Dh and I are starting to do some research. Right now we are leaning towards not circumcising.
I did want to comment on this though:
quote:
I am sorry, but there are too many things that science is way behind God's infinite wisdom on...there are too many times that it takes them ages to figure out that DUH, God's way was the best way all along. So I tend to lean more towards circ'ing simply because God wanted it done for His people. Obviously there was a reason there...and I don't think it was just so they would look different!!!
At first this makes sense and I would tend to agree with it....except that when Gentiles starting following Christ, they were not told to circumcise themselves, and God did not ask them to circumcise themselves. Paul went into long discourse over how it doesn't matter anymore. Just be circumcised in heart.
The fact that God did not require circumcision of new Gentile converts to Christianity in the NT leads me to believe that the command was only for a time and for a specific people. God knew the Jews would be going through a lot of difficult circumstances (wandering for 40 years) where cleanliness would be impossible. Also as Earthless mentioned, it was to make them different, set apart, and as an exercise in obedience.
Anyway, in our decision making, we found that at this point, the AAP does not recommend circumcision, and it does not discourage circumcision. The cons for both sides appear to be low, and some of them unfounded. I have been told that circumcision in the US is listed under "cosmetic surgery" and isn't covered by a lot of insurance companies anymore.
I think it's just personal choice at this point. I worry about little boy's ability to keep clean, but then I remember the multitude of people in Europe who seem to get along just fine.
Question for those who did not circ their sons: We are avid backpackers/hikers. We often are out several nights in the wilderness. There are no bathrooms, and you are not supposed to bathe in the creeks (they aren't big enough anyway). We do usually have two bowls of water per person (one with soap and water in it, one with just water in it) to take a sponge bath with. Would it be hard for an intact male to keep clean on a trip like that, or would it be okay with the nightly sponge bath?
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Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 2:45:00 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5091
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
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