|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
|
[Poll]
|
To Circ or Not To Circ
|
| We did circumcise |
|
| We will circumcise |
|
| We didn't circumcise |
|
| We won't circumcise |
|
| We are split on our decision |
|
| We have not even talked about it.... |
|
| What is circumcision? |
|
| Did circ and regret it... |
|
| didn't circ and regret it... |
|
Total Votes : 113
|
(last vote on : 7/26/2008 9:11:01 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:12:36 PM
|
|
|
3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2636
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
None, though I am sure I could Google and find something to counter with. I have no studies, nothing but personal opinion, empty rhetoric, guesses, and assumptions.
Well, you said it, not me. 
On the other points...
*it was not a rushed decision for us. It was well thought out, and long considered
*we did attend the procedure. Dh stood looking over the doctors shoulder to make sure it was done right.
*my husband is not American and probably 99% of the men in his nation are circumcised, and it is very common in Africa, from whence he cometh. I really question your 90% figure. Do you have a back-up for that one?
quote:
The fact that God did not require circumcision of new Gentile converts to Christianity in the NT leads me to believe that the command was only for a time and for a specific people. God knew the Jews would be going through a lot of difficult circumstances (wandering for 40 years) where cleanliness would be impossible. Also as Earthless mentioned, it was to make them different, set apart, and as an exercise in obedience.
I think this is a perfectly fine argument. I only want to know if those who are so passionate against circumcision to the point of calling it barbaric and mutliation consider God a barbaric mutilator for commanding it. 
_____________________________
 Moo
Shameless Self Promotion~This week's giveaway: For Young Men Only. Don't miss it!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:14:18 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5708
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
|
God's ways can, at times, indeed seem nonsensical to us, barbaric, etc..
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:17:12 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3287
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
God's ways can, at times, indeed seem nonsensical to us, barbaric, etc..
Our son is circ'ed, but what you've said is true. God often commanded the children of Israel's enemies to be murdered, and in today's world, while children are tragically killed in a war, we would never consent to the deliberate slaughter of little children.
ETA: And if woman was raped, she was either stoned to death for not making enough noise to draw people's attention, or she had to marry her rapist. But even such a distasteful law did have it's reasons.
Obviously, I am not comparing circumcision with the murder of children, just pointing out that in the OT, God often did seem extremely barbaric, even though He had His reasons.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 4/9/2008 3:28:39 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:24:00 PM
|
|
|
JoyfulWife
Posts: 276
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think this is a perfectly fine argument. I only want to know if those who are so passionate against circumcision to the point of calling it barbaric and mutliation consider God a barbaric mutilator for commanding it.
Oh, I'm not passionately against it. My quote you used was in response to the post saying people should circ because God had a good reason (health). I was just pointing out that if that were completely true, He would have wanted Gentiles to do it too. But He didn't.
I do think circumcision to be terribly painful for a baby. The numbing cream they use doesn't always work, and the injected anesthetic seems just as bad. Does requiring circumcision of the Jewish people make God barbaric? No - but He doesn't always call people to do things that are pleasant or that make us happy. He does things to make us holy. He does things that are for our own good. For the Jews, He chose circumcision at the time to accomplish that. Just because God loves us, doesn't mean we won't have to go through painful things sometime for Him to accomplish His purposes. That's as true then as it is now.
_____________________________
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:31:24 PM
|
|
|
PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
|
quote:
I do think circumcision to be terribly painful for a baby. The numbing cream they use doesn't always work, and the injected anesthetic seems just as bad.
IME, this is not true. The crying my boys did seemed to have more to do with not liking being restrained. They were also given sugar water on a binky, which is a proven pain killer in infants, and also nursed immediately after the procedure. I gave them Tylenol for a day or two, but they never showed the least bit of discomfort even when I changed their diapers.
Now the heel pr.ick in the hospital that tests for lots of stuff...THAT hurt them, and they were sure to let the world know.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:47:00 PM
|
|
|
JoyfulWife
Posts: 276
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoyfulWife
Would it be hard for an intact male to keep clean on a trip like that, or would it be okay with the nightly sponge bath?
He will be more than OK. 
Good!! I'll tell my husband that - that was his biggest worry after all our research. He didn't want our son (if we have one, that is) to miss out on the fun of camping or backpacking trips or be angry about the difficulty of going on them because of keeping clean (that is, of course, if our future son even likes backpacking!)
We are really hoping our kids will love backpacking because we've always hoped to go on an extended trip (a month or so) once they are pre-teen, teenage years. That is WAY in the future though.
_____________________________
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 5:39:11 PM
|
|
|
JoyfulWife
Posts: 276
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
just saying that you can't exactly rely on "scientific evidence" when they aren't exactly up to par with God and His divine wisdom. Obviously there is a reason God created the male body to naturally produce more Vit K on the 8th day then it ever will again in that person's lifetime.
I completely understand where you are coming from. My question is just, why wouldn't God continue to command it of all believers if it is the best and there is a really good reason to do it? It just seems like if that were completely true, then God would have commanded all His followers to circumcise when Paul was presented with the issue in the NT. My logic was that it must not benefit/disadvantage that much since God says both ways are fine in the NT.
quote:
I can not really comment on the "intact male" part of that, but my hubby is in the Army and often in situations where he can not exactly keep clean....such as spending months in Iraq or Kuwait where showers didn't exactly get you clean, etc. One of the things the Army is big on though is keeping clean...and any field exercise or deployment etc they have to have baby wipes with them. So I would say just make sure you have those with you wherever you go. My hubby is circ'd, but there are plenty in the Army that aren't...and they just all use wipes to keep cleanliness not really an issue for them.
Thanks - I hadn't thought of baby wipes, but that's a really great idea! As I was thinking about things this afternoon, the thought of what about military situations where you are in areas where there isn't access to showers popped into my mind, so it was funny you mentioned that! 
_____________________________
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:31:49 PM
|
|
|
TammyIsBlessed
Posts: 1662
Status: offline
|
The horrible heel blood tests they do are far more painful. Especially in my sons case. The nurse said she'd never had so much trouble getting blood from a baby before - he screamed so loud, the poor guy. 
_____________________________
I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do. Helen Keller
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/10/2008 3:26:20 PM
|
|
|
HomeSpunLady
Posts: 1241
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Lovely Pennsylvania!
Status: offline
|
Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
_____________________________
Kathryn
Just Me
Our little bun is here!
Rhys Athanasius
Sept 27
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 6:46:23 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoyfulWife
My question is just, why wouldn't God continue to command it of all believers if it is the best and there is a really good reason to do it? It just seems like if that were completely true, then God would have commanded all His followers to circumcise when Paul was presented with the issue in the NT. My logic was that it must not benefit/disadvantage that much since God says both ways are fine in the NT. Circumcision is/was a covenantal sign, specifically the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. As gentile believers, we do not related to God based on those covenants but on the basis of the New Covenant with a different covenantal sign: baptism.
Paul emphasizes that in Galations where he writes that anyone who recieves circumcision (which is the last step in formal Jewish conversion) in the flesh obligates themselves to the Law of Moses (Gal 5.3) which is something I think most gentile believers do not want to foist upon their children.
There is no medical benefit from the procedure, in fact it can have a negative impact on the nerves of that sensitive area if done incorrectly (too tightly). The reason it was started here in the US back in the 1800s - to decrease sexual sensitivity, presumably minimizing the urge for young men to masturbate. (BTW, the same reason the breakfast cereal industry started)
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 7:08:50 AM
|
|
|
3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2636
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The reason it was started here in the US back in the 1800s - to decrease sexual sensitivity, presumably minimizing the urge for young men to masturbate. (BTW, the same reason the breakfast cereal industry started)
Just because someone in the 1800's *thought* it would prevent masturbation doesn't mean it actually does decrease sensitivity. Lots of people have had lots of really, really silly ideas throughout the ages.  Or do I need to be stocking up on Special K, too, for when my boys are older?
quote:
There is no medical benefit from the procedure,
There are medical professionals on both sides of the issue.
quote:
Paul emphasizes that in Galations where he writes that anyone who recieves circumcision (which is the last step in formal Jewish conversion) in the flesh obligates themselves to the Law of Moses (Gal 5.3) which is something I think most gentile believers do not want to foist upon their children.
So, if it is done for medical reasons (real or percieved) or cultural reasons with absolutely no spiritual basis, do you still believe that the circumcised are "under the Law"? What about intent of the heart, and all that?
We didn't circ our sons for spiritual reasons, or to keep any law or command, or anything like that.
_____________________________
Moo
Shameless Self Promotion~This week's giveaway: For Young Men Only. Don't miss it!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 8:00:17 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
No - in most guys it does not lessen sensitivity. In some, it does a lot. It all depends on where those nerves happen to be. If they are close to the surface and the surgery cuts too tightly, they can be damaged or even severed.
As to silly ideas, you should look thru the archives of the "anti-masturbation" devices patented during last half of the 19th century. It is the stuff of serious horror movies.
No - I do not think that a medical procedure done on an infant necessarily carries spiritual significance unless the parents' intent was there. But that is only my opinion.
Actually, stock up on corn flakes and graham crackers; Drs Kellogg's and Graham's inventions.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 8:07:52 AM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3287
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady
Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
My doctor flat out told us there was no reason to circ, just as long as we taught our son proper hygiene. And let's face it, your daughter can get infections there too, but I'm sure you've taught her how to clean herself.
And the reduced sensitivity stuff does have some basis in fact; though I don't have the proper equipment to judge for myself.
My MIL is a teacher of 4th graders, and she's had one student that she knows of have a late circ, because he was not taught to clean himself. That being said, my husband did circ our son for purely cultural reasons. He was very torn about it, though.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:07:43 AM
|
|
|
HomeSpunLady
Posts: 1241
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Lovely Pennsylvania!
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady
Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
My doctor flat out told us there was no reason to circ, just as long as we taught our son proper hygiene. And let's face it, your daughter can get infections there too, but I'm sure you've taught her how to clean herself.
And the reduced sensitivity stuff does have some basis in fact; though I don't have the proper equipment to judge for myself.
My MIL is a teacher of 4th graders, and she's had one student that she knows of have a late circ, because he was not taught to clean himself. That being said, my husband did circ our son for purely cultural reasons. He was very torn about it, though.
Well and that's my thought, do we simply hack off an appendage just because boys are thought to be more dirty? We have taught Nadia from the beginning not to put anything in there and at diaper changes when there is bm in there we have to dig to get it out. She's learned that while yes, that hurts, if we let it in there she will get bigger owies and it's better to clean it out now, rather than get sick later. Why can't boys be taught the same thing? I've had UTI's, should I get the area sewn shut? Of course not, I practice better hygiene since those incidents and I don't have anymore problems.
_____________________________
Kathryn
Just Me
Our little bun is here!
Rhys Athanasius
Sept 27
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:17:32 AM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 5752
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
My ds is not circumcised and has not has a single infection during his nearly 19 years. In the early days, months and years, the area is self-cleaning. When our ds was about 4, we taught him how to clean himself whilst in the bath. That's it. No problems. Nor has my dh (who is 52) who is also uncircumcised, like the vast majority of males in the UK.
_____________________________
"I love Manda's suggestion to just laugh most of it off.."
Tinkerbell, September 2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:38:19 AM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3287
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
One thing more. My husband was allowed to view the procedure, and he was very happy with the OB who did it. But afterwards it was hospital policy that the baby be observed in the nursery for 30 minutes. Nathan cried most of the time.
I wasn't allowed in, and he wasn't allowed out. They called and asked me if they could give him formula to sooth him. I caved (because I wasn't allowed access to him to nurse for those 30 minutes), and he was still crying when they brought him into the room. He nursed for almost 40 minutes (the only time he's ever done that), then crashed out on my chest.
I had mixed feelings before he was born, but I was really hoping dH would change his mind once Nathan was born. It was awful. If this one is a boy, I'm guessing hubby will decide to circ again, but I'm not gonna like it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:00:10 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7909
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
I am reading a lot about cleaning the area, but in small boys, that is what creates problems. The foreskin should never be pulled back by parents, ever. It is supposed to be attached, like a fingernail is attached to the nail bed. When the boy gets older, around when he is potty trained, he will naturally pull it back himself, as it is loosening and will eventually be ready to detach. Before potty training, however, it is not read to detach and doing so can cause serious harm that may result in a need for circumcision. It is bad for a parent to try to clean under the foreskin. When parents do that, their uncircumcised boys are much more likely to have problems. When they leave it alone, he is much less likely to have trouble. When the boy is old enough to bathe himself, he should clean gently under it, but other than that, it ought to be left alone.
My son is almost nine. He has not had any trouble, because we never pulled it back. He is the only one that has done that, as he has been instructed for bath time.
The foreskin in meant to protect the penis. It has natural oils that protect it. This is not dirty. It is a protective barrier. Other parts of both male and female bodies produce bodily fluids to protect those body parts. That doesn’t make them dirty. We normally like to clean off the excess, like with our ears and so forth, but the reason for the production of fluids is to keep the person healthy.
I see no point in circumcising and could not imagine having done that to my son. It was a sign that the Lord gave to the Jewish people before Christ. It is no longer applicable for today and unless it became medically necessary later, I see no point in it. Circumcising as a preventative measure seems a poor reason. If any problem should arise in the future, the foreskin could be removed at that time. However, the possibility of this happening is remote. The main problem that people see with not circumcising their boys is when they push the foreskin back. Many doctors have given that erroneous advice to the detriment of the child. That alone is the main reason why uncircumcised boys have trouble. The foreskin is not meant to detach until the boys have grown and it naturally begins to loosen. When it is messed with previous to that stage, it causes damage that cannot be corrected. That is why so many boys had trouble.
_____________________________
When you stand up for what’s right, don’t expect the one in the wrong to be happy about. He may get very angry. That doesn’t mean you should back down and give in. It means you need to stand firm and diligently pray for him and for yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:03:04 PM
|
|
|
Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
|
I agree for the most part, Cynthia. But I would say that if there is a family history of men needing to be circ'ed later in life then the parents-to-be should probably have a talk with a Urologist. I recently had a discussion with one about it when DH was there (he knows I'm sharing this ) and we were told that because SO many of DH's uncles/cousins have needed it later in life that it's probably smarter just to go ahead and do it at birth. But I don't think such a strong family history is very common.
_____________________________
Ryanne
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:05:44 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7909
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
Ryanne, I would ask the parents if they all got the same advice to push the foreskin back during diaper changes. That used to be the standard advice and the source of most problems. I'm also wondering if those UTI problems were completely resolved by circumcision or if the problem could have been related to something else.
_____________________________
When you stand up for what’s right, don’t expect the one in the wrong to be happy about. He may get very angry. That doesn’t mean you should back down and give in. It means you need to stand firm and diligently pray for him and for yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:12:42 PM
|
|
|
PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
|
We don't have a strong family history of needing men or older boys needing to be circ'd, but that may be because they have all been circ'd as infants too.
The motivating factor for us was the time I worked in a hospital. I was shocked and horrified by the number of boys and men...8 to 88 who needed to have circumcision done. I personally would much rather have it done as tiny babies when the risk of complications is so much less and there isn't even a chance they will remember it.
We've had all our boys circ'd. None of them had any trouble at all with it and I am glad we did it. The ones I gave birth to, I was with them throughout the procedure, and any upset seemed to be more with being naked and strapped down than pain. Topical and injected local anesthetics were used and I would have insisted on that if it wasn't already the standard here. I nursed them both immediately afterward and the circ healed faster than the umbilical cord, believe it or not.
If this baby is a boy, we will have the same doctor circ him. Not even a question in my mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do not think people who don't circ their boys are bad or wrong. But I do not care for the "we chose not to, and so should everyone else" attitude. This is a personal decision to be made and agreed on by the parents of the child. There is not a right or wrong choice in this matter, IMO. It's not a moral decision. It's a personal one.
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
