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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 8:59:18 AM
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librarian_ponderer
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Perhaps I am naive but I think that most Christians agree more than they disagree, at least in practice, on the issue of salvation. I think that the biggest difference has to do with how we conceptualize salvation. Granted, in Orthodoxy we do not believe that one simple profession of faith is sufficient for an eternally secure salvation. One must persevere in a true, living faith as evidenced by good works in order to be saved (in other words, we don't believe in "once saved always saved,". I believe that most Catholics and most Protestants, in practice, believe the same things. Where Orthodoxy would differ from traditional scholastic Catholicism is that we do not use the language of merit with regard to good works. Where we would differ with some protestants is that we do not hold that conversion is a one-time event, but rather it is a continual, daily event. But, and I can't speak for Catholics here, we would agree with most Protestants that one doesn't do good works in order to merit salvation. Christ is the only one who has merited salvation for us. We do good works because, having our faith in Christ and our love for Christ (because He first loved us), we show the fruits of that faith and the fruits of our faith contribute to our ongoing sanctification. Actually, I believe that some have written of the influence of the eastern Church fathers on John Wesley and among Protestant views of grace and free will, we would be closest to the Arminian view.
Joe
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 10:00:12 AM
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Heavendweller
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Wow Joe, thanks for your comments on the Eastern Orthodox faith. I think I'm getting to like EO more and more. BTW, I'm very familiar with John Wesley, having attended a Wesleyan College. What a wonderful man of God. Calvinists in his day argued with him quite a bit. His attitude was to unite in love, and though he disagreed with them, he was not obnoxiously arguementative.
Where does the EO faith teach about purgatory? Wesleyans believe they must seek to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Also, as you say, they are not OSAS. Wesleyans believe, as I do, that one must endure to the end to be saved.
Look forward to hearing from you, LP.
HD
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 12:28:57 PM
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librarian_ponderer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Wow Joe, thanks for your comments on the Eastern Orthodox faith. I think I'm getting to like EO more and more. BTW, I'm very familiar with John Wesley, having attended a Wesleyan College. What a wonderful man of God. Calvinists in his day argued with him quite a bit. His attitude was to unite in love, and though he disagreed with them, he was not obnoxiously arguementative.
Where does the EO faith teach about purgatory? Wesleyans believe they must seek to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Also, as you say, they are not OSAS. Wesleyans believe, as I do, that one must endure to the end to be saved.
Look forward to hearing from you, LP.
HD
HD, thanks for your kind words! I am reluctant to say too much because I don't want to derail this thread. In short, in Orthodoxy, we pray for the dead in Christ (Orthodox Jews also pray for the dead), but we have no officially defined "purgatory." One might find an Orthodox theologian or two postulating something like purgatory, but it is not dogma. Personally, I believe that through praying for our deceased loved ones we emphasis that death does not spiritually separate us (since we are all alive in Christ), and we believe that those who have gone before us in Christ pray in the presence of Christ for us, but I do not believe in purgatory as a place of punishment. The notion of temporal punishments that must be atoned for through passive suffering is rejected by the Orthodox Church. This is also why we reject the concept of indulgences. The most that any Orthodox is usually willing to believe is that somehow our prayers help our loved ones in growing closer to Christ.
Joe
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 4:20:08 PM
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cognitivemagic
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Heavendweller: I responded to my confusing comment about Rome in that other thread but I will repeat part of it here: I am Eastern Orthodox. Please read that post for the clarification on my ambiguous statement.
quote:
Because the EO practice of faith has 7 Sacraments and requires essentially the same practices and disciplines of its followers.
Actually, EO views everything as "sacramental". Only the Roman Catholic church puts a hedge around them by limiting them to only 7.
I highly recommend Alexander Schmemann's "For the Life of the World" on the subject of Orthodox Sacramental Theology. It was in large measure responsible for my desire to convert to Orthodoxy.
Also, the "practices" and "disciplines" are different. For instance, "confession" is not done in a veiled box that separates the priest from the penitent. The context of confession is reconciliation with the family of Orthodox faithful and for healing and growth in salvation. It's more like going to your dad or your doctor for help and advice than a lawyer who negotiates a sentence between you and the Judge.
And priests are allowed, and even encouraged, to marry!! They don't share the Augustinian contempt of the body and sexuality.
It's best to talk to a priest about this; but I hope this helps.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 4:26:31 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
For instance, "confession" is not done in a veiled box that separates the priest from the penitent. Catholics don't do it this way, either.
quote:
...more like going to your dad or your doctor for help and advice than a lawyer who negotiates a sentence between you and the Judge. I am guessing that its perhaps been a while since you compared confession notes with your Catholic bretheran.
Welcome to the site. Another voice of reason as far as I am concerned....
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 2/4/2008 4:33:18 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 4:40:22 PM
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Odeliya
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Otis
WHAT?!
you consider Lydia's home based church and other similar churches described in New testament cults?
Sir, I will not allow you to disrespect the Word of God like that. Not in the posts to me.
Please keep that in mind.
I explained to you my position on essentials, twice. Why do you ignore it?
I presume I cornered you withthis post You refuse to answer becasue I caught you on being contradictory! that is probably why you are so angry 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 5:02:27 PM
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Odeliya
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Mary,
I do apologize if “a lie” is not a polite word.
Please forgive me, I just know that if I were to say 2 contradictory, diametrically opposite to each other things, insisting that both are right at the same time my parents would call that a lie.
I can address the issue by using a more politically correct version of a lie :”providing an input radically different from the truth” ;)
quote:
You post the contradiction as you see it and I will try to answer.
With pleasure.
You kindly mentioned that you believe there will be Protestants in Heaven.You don’t deny that it Is possible, correct?
If that is the case then Protestants are a part of Church of Christ, the Bride. Then CC assumption that only Catholics aren’t a part of Christ’s Church that he will be with for eternity is “ information radically different from the truth”
And you are in direct contradiction with your church’s teaching. Sorry for being blunt, I didn’t mean to offend, just telling the truth.
That alone makes you a believer in something your church denies.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 6:15:48 PM
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librarian_ponderer
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Every Christian confession believes that it best represents what Christ had in mind for the Church. If you look at the old Lutheran and Reformed confessions and the writings of the reformers, you will see that they held that their particular Churches were the Church. Growing up, I heard baptist relatives and pastors say that only Baptist Churches were true New Testament Churches. They admitted that there were Christians outside of the Baptist Church but they rejected the notion that other denominations can be the Church in the way the Baptist Church can be. Catholics and Orthodox are no different. Each of us confess that we are the one, true Church of Christ.
What most Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have believed historically is that there are some who while not being visibly within Christ's Church, they are nevertheless by their faith invisibly present within. Also, there are many visibly within the Church who are not really of her, namely, those who are without true saving faith in Christ.
So I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape because one Church teaches that it is the true Church. With the exception of some contemporary megachurches, everyone believes that their Church is the true Church, or at least the most true. And as far as I know, not one major Christian denomination (including Catholic and Orthodox) teaches that those outside her visible boundaries will definitely be damned. Though I could be wrong about this I suppose.
Joe
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 7:26:47 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Every Christian confession believes that it best represents what Christ had in mind for the Church. If you didn't believe this, wouldn't you find the one for which you COULD believe this?
I mean, if I went to Pastor Bob's Evangelistic Temple of the Full Bore Gospel, isn't it because I believe this Church represents the fullest and most accurate version of Scripturally instructed faith? If I believed Brother Charlie's 4th Street Church of the Nazerene Redeemer offered a fuller and more accurate version of faith than Pastor Bob, I'd go there, wouldn't I??
That just seems like simple logic...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/4/2008 8:05:23 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: librarian_ponderer
Every Christian confession believes that it best represents what Christ had in mind for the Church. If you look at the old Lutheran and Reformed confessions and the writings of the reformers, you will see that they held that their particular Churches were the Church. Growing up, I heard baptist relatives and pastors say that only Baptist Churches were true New Testament Churches. They admitted that there were Christians outside of the Baptist Church but they rejected the notion that other denominations can be the Church in the way the Baptist Church can be. Catholics and Orthodox are no different. Each of us confess that we are the one, true Church of Christ.
What most Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have believed historically is that there are some who while not being visibly within Christ's Church, they are nevertheless by their faith invisibly present within. Also, there are many visibly within the Church who are not really of her, namely, those who are without true saving faith in Christ.
So I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape because one Church teaches that it is the true Church. With the exception of some contemporary megachurches, everyone believes that their Church is the true Church, or at least the most true. And as far as I know, not one major Christian denomination (including Catholic and Orthodox) teaches that those outside her visible boundaries will definitely be damned. Though I could be wrong about this I suppose.
Joe
Hello Librarian_Ponderer
I agree with what you believe about the invisible believers in Christ. I believe there are plenty of believers, such as Paul and the ethiopian, who were not part of any visible congregation in their beginnings, but yet strong believers in the Lord. I believe in the visible church, there are genuine believers in Christ, and there are the wicked together. But not so with the invisible Church. The invisible Church is only made up of genuine believers, regardless of denomination, because of this example we have of Paul. Since he himself said in Galatians 1:11-17
11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Acts 8:26-29
26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Acts 9:3-6
3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" 5And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/5/2008 12:29:38 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
You kindly mentioned that you believe there will be Protestants in Heaven.You don’t deny that it Is possible, correct?
Correct its possible. Seriously I hope there are lots and lots of people in heaven.
quote:
If that is the case then Protestants are a part of Church of Christ, the Bride. Then CC assumption that only Catholics aren’t a part of Christ’s Church that he will be with for eternity is “ information radically different from the truth”
And you are in direct contradiction with your church’s teaching. Sorry for being blunt, I didn’t mean to offend, just telling the truth.
That alone makes you a believer in something your church denies.
No it doesn't.
The early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847). The Catechism also makes it clear, that this is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his church (#847). We know that God can use extraordinary means to save any person, but the only ordinary means of salvation we know of is through the church.
Peace,
Mary
"For the sake of his sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world"
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 2/5/2008 12:58:20 PM >
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/5/2008 11:30:40 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
Actually I purposely called my pastor yesterday and asked “ Waheed, what denomination are we?” – he asked if I got too much free time on my hands, got some laughs from it..:)
It is a gathering of Christian believers in one family’s home. They are pretty wealthy Arabs and built an addition to the house for the church, even it’s pretty small, just 9 people.
It doesn’t’ have a name or denom name -What was Lydia’s denom? Neither any other churches mentioned in NT had a name. It is entirely not necessarily, don’t you agree?
O,
I'm sorry about my last post that I removed--I obviously didn't put much thought into it. But none the less, this of course opens the door for many questions and I often find around here that people are happy to take swipes at any aspect of the Catholic Church but make a comment about their specific "church' and somehow that is "unfair". In you case; who is your pastor accountable too? Who laid hands on him as is shown in scripture? There were no denominations in scripture so your search for one is a non-starter--they were called Christians or "the way". They followed the teaching of the apostles and were under their authority and you see throughout history that appealing to that connection was the primary way to fight herresey.
No I don't agree still--"The no-name church"; how is recruiting?
quote:
But we are talking about Essentials you absolutely need to know to get saved, that is.
Any protestant will add the hearty AMEN and sign under LP ‘s description of what is necessary for salvation.Yet Librarian Ponderer's and EO and Protestants' etc. ways of practicing faith are different from Catholic church ways
Some would agree and add other things. There is no established list--that is what I'm trying to get at. There are a multitude of various opinions with nobody willing to say exactly what is true. There is no sure guide.
quote:
Are Easter orthodox practices that differ from CC ones prevent every single EO from being saved?
You haven't scatched the surface of the EO faith. They have the same sacramental perspective as the Catholic Church and very much reject the protestant way of doing things.
Otis
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 10:07:28 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Wes
Any idea what he meant by it.
Was it more if I kill someone who is about to detonate a bomb that will kill 50-10-1 other person, my personal conscience to save the other people, over shadow in Gods eyes the sin of killing?
Or was it more if my personal consciences tell me that, even with the churches stance on abortion, I feel its right for me, God wont judge me.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 3:50:59 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
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My answer might sound not so pleasant because it’s truth in essence- but add 10 pages of pious demagoguery in between and it can pass for any authentic Catholic document, I just have no time to do it :)
quote:
This morning I heard a Catholic gentleman say: "In Catholicism, the personal conscience is sovereign. If we do what we truly believe is right, God cannot judge against us."
I heard that phrase before and debated it with a couple of catholics.
Don’t know what else it is used for, But in the nutshell: it's a neat legal loophole to "let" muslims, jews, and pretty much whoever RC needs to flirt with at the particular moment into heaven.
Whoever RC hires as a legal team are real geniuses. Don’t know what CC pays those sharks, but Johnny Cochran, may God rest his soul, was a naive baby in comparison.
When I asked why M. Theresa wasn’t big on letting people know about Jesus but rather encouraged them to pray to their gods, the answer was based on ccc 841*, plus throw in ccc 847**- this way it’s really hard to determine who doesn’t know Christ and his church “thru no fault of their own.”
Once clearly confronted with Scripture, iron clad contr -argument is given: ccc 97, which states: 97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God"
That alone keeps CC hands free from any restrictions, for:
Sacred tradition is a tricky beast and basically can have any meaning. Anything invented yesterday can pass for sacred tradition, as evidence shows. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 3:52:41 PM
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Odeliya
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My host mother is a corporate attorney and she says that way CCC is written is BRILLIANT. the whole purpose of a law document or contract is to provide possibility to be read situationally, or have many meanings that can be evoked as needed.
** 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
**847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 4:01:55 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
I'm sorry about my last post that I removed--I obviously didn't put much thought into it.
I commend your dignity, Otis.
It takes a real man to admit that.
We probably should stay away from debating the organizational structure of our churches - that is salvation thread, so not here...
quote:
you haven't scatched the surface of the EO faith. They have the same sacramental perspective as the Catholic Church and very much reject the protestant way of doing things.
No. That is unrelated.
LP made a post about salvation - he didnt include any practices in it.So I presume he doesnt consider those absolutely necessary for salvation.If he would have said:" unless one observes such and such practices one cant get saved" i would have argued that. He didnt.
WHat about your position? Honestly, i would like to know it for it feels i am debating something without knowing your position. What is absolutely essential for salvation, in your view?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 4:06:06 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
I agree with what you believe about the invisible believers in Christ. I believe there are plenty of believers, such as Paul and the ethiopian, who were not part of any visible congregation in their beginnings, but yet strong believers in the Lord. I believe in the visible church, there are genuine believers in Christ, and there are the wicked together. But not so with the invisible Church. The invisible Church is only made up of genuine believers, regardless of denomination, because of this example we have of Paul. Since he himself said in Galatians 1:11-17
11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Acts 8:26-29
26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Acts 9:3-6
3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" 5And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
Excellent point, Jessica!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 6:57:48 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
It really surprised me. Let me know what you find out, please.
Alright Wes here's what I found,
From the CCC1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53
1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.
Then in Dignitatis Humanae, a Vatican II document on religious freedom, "in forming their consciences the faithful must pay careful attention to the holy and certain teaching of the Church". Man cannot be free from truth. He is compelled by his nature to seek truth, as taught by the Church, and to conform his conscience and his life to it.
So - Yes we must always follow our conscience, but that conscience must be built around the holy and certain teaching of the church. The CCC is pretty clear that a choice of conscience can be the wrong choice.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 8:31:06 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 546
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Well said, Dear Mary.
Just to [hopefully] add to Mary's contribution here:
The Church believes a well-formed conscience plays a significant role in one's hope of salvation, but also understands, and graciously accepts the fact, that life circumstances, events, and individual bias play a role in one's ability to form a "good conscience" with regard to the Faith, especially since there are so many descendents of the "reformation."
Wes brought up the issue based on something he heard, and there is no way to know the source or confirm the accuracy of Wes's interpretation, not that I am questioning his integrity, but some things need to be said.
First and foremost, every teaching of the Church is directed to those who are in full communion and are meant to be understood and adhered to by those who are in full communion with the Catholic Church. Basic logic here. I personally am proud to say that anyone in the world can investigate the teachings of my Church online, in books, or by personal experience in any town in which they may happen to live. They are free to question, research, read, delve, visit any parish priest where they are, and if they still reject the Catholic Faith, go on their merry way without paying a dime to anyone. If one so seeking happened to find a Catholic priest he didn't "like," he is free to go down the road and find another, [which might say more about the seeker than the welcomer, IMHO, but that is beside the point].
Now that I've gotten that off my chest...
Dear Wes,
When one has developed a "well-formed conscience" according to Catholic teaching, it is a safe place to trust that God has met us there, too. Our conscience either convicts or acquits us in the quiet places of our hearts, when the noise of the world is shut out and it is only Him Who fills us. We can listen to that small, still, profound Voice that booms in our hearts, or we can choose to squelch it any way we can. I do believe any believer knows exactly the moments when we do that, and if any believer denies doing that at any given time, I might chalk that up to denial.
In short, if we profess to know, love, and follow the Lord, we best be doing that on a daily and ongoing basis.
Pax et bonum and Blessed Lent,
gatolover
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/7/2008 8:36:02 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 546
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Risking the wrath of PS103....
I can't stand Bill Belichek.
I wonder why he "couldn't" lead my Brownies to the Superbowl, but all of a sudden, he's a "cheater" and can lead the Patriots to an "almost-undefeated" season?!
I whooped it up when the Giants won! Anybody but the "Patriots" and their cheating coach.
Just had to get that off my chest.
Pax Christi and Happy Fasting to all this Lenten Season!
gatolover
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I know of no such across the board statement. 