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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/21/2008 4:00:32 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 460
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
And they should also know that Catholics consider all Christians who have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirt (ie, not Oneness) to be joined to the Church in some way, so they are not "outside" the Catholic Church in our view. So the idea that non-Catholic Christians are bound for hell is another of the strawmen.
You should know that many non-Catholics do not wish to be joined to the Catholic Church in any form, so being considered "outside" the Catholic Church -- which we are -- is no loss in our view. And, your insistence that I am "joined" is insulting to me.
It's unfortunate that you are consistently mislead by your own religion. The argument that non-Catholics are bound for hell is NOT a strawman -- it IS the accurate view of the Catholic Church.
To begin with, according to scripture, all men are bound for hell unless they accept the gracious gift of salvation offered through faith in Christ. Catholics believe they have a monopoly on being able to impart the gift of salvation -- only to those who are "joined in some way" to their one true church -- as they believe they offer the only true faith in Christ.
The whole idea is based on the faulty premis that the Catholic Church is the original Church (Body of Christ) and all others have separated themselves from it.
According to Catholic Answers:
Salvation outside the Church:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).
Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
It amazes me that some Catholics are being taught half truths in order to attempt to refute accurate claims against the church's official position. Why would the Catholic Church be ashamed of their official stance? It is clear that the belief of the Catholic Church is that if one knowingly and deliberately rejects or separates from the Catholic Church, no salvation is possible unless they repent and return to Catholicism.
Furthermore, a Catholic course on salvation teaches HERE
61. While affirming that "Outside the Church there is no salvation," (C.C.C. # 846), the Catechism of the Catholic Church further states, "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.'" (C.C.C. # 847)
62. For someone to have never heard of the Gospel of Christ or His Church, it means that the individual has never had an opportunity to be touched by the grace of God. It means that this individual has never seen a missionary, nor heard of any of the thousands of Christian religions that speak in the name of Jesus. It means that he has never heard of the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops, the priests, religious brothers and sisters, lay missionaries and even of Christians, over and above having never seen a Church or the symbol of the cross.
63. It would also mean that this individual has never heard of Catholic or separate Schools, Catholic Social Services, Catholic charities, the Catholic Church position on the subjects of abortion, divorce and homosexuality, never heard of or even saw a picture of the Virgin Mary or any of the saints, never questioned the origin of religions, etc...
Clearly, the "Church" they don't know is the Catholic Church. If I've never heard of the Catholic Church through no fault of my own, I have a chance to be saved -- if I've heard of the Catholic Church and do not choose to join them, I cannot be saved.
Additionally, the above Catholic study guide states:
IN SUMMARY
76. In Summary, for someone to be saved, he must,
(A) Have faith in Jesus,
(B) Be properly baptized, and
(C) Die in a state of righteousness.
OR
(D) Have faith in Jesus and the intent of converting to the Catholic faith prior to dying. While he may not have been baptized by water, he would have received the Baptism of blood or of desire.
There is no doubt that to be "properly baptized" is to be baptized in the Catholic Church according to their doctrine of baptism -- which is the heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
You can try to deny what your church teaches, but the fact remains: According to Catholicism, if you deliberately are not a Catholic and have no intention of becoming Catholic, you have no communion with God and cannot be saved unless you repent and convert to the Catholic faith.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/21/2008 11:27:45 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 167
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My dear Wild brother (or sister--no offense intended if you are female),
I will not copy your entire post, only you rcommentary at the end, because you have misunderstood what you have posted.
quote:
There is no doubt that to be "properly baptized" is to be baptized in the Catholic Church according to their doctrine of baptism -- which is the heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
You can try to deny what your church teaches, but the fact remains: According to Catholicism, if you deliberately are not a Catholic and have no intention of becoming Catholic, you have no communion with God and cannot be saved unless you repent and convert to the Catholic faith.
I am not a cradle Catholic, but one who was lead to join the church after years of study and prayer.
I was baptized when I was 12 years old, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
So, when I became a Catholic, I did not *convert*, as conversion implies a change of religion. I was already a Christian, and the Catholic Church considered me as such. Rather, I was received into full communion.
They did not require me to be rebaptized. The Church believes in *one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins* and I had already received that.
You have mistakenly decided from what you posted that the Church requires a "Catholic baptism." Not true. It is a *Trinitarian baptism* that is required (and whether or not you believe in baptismal regeneration or not is not a Catholic/Protestant issue, as many Protestants believe the same thing, so that is moot for this discussion.)
You also misunderstand this:
quote:
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
This does not mean that all Protestants are bound for hell. It does not even mean that all Catholics who leave the Church are bound for hell. What it *does* mean is that if someone is a member of the Catholic Church--and is convinced that it is the church Jesus established--and decides to leave it anyway, they have committed heresey. Heretics can, however, be restored  It really has nothing whatsoever to do with non-Catholic Christians--unless they are like me and become convinced the Church is right.
I think if you reread what you have posted, you will see that you have misunderstood what it means.
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/21/2008 11:39:53 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 167
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And, at the risk of offending someone, I think this is the relevant paragraph from the Catechism:
quote:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/23/2008 11:34:58 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 838
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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To further some of these points - In my neck of the woods, I find the Catholics to be much more accepting and genuinely cordial to Protestants than many Protestants are of Catholics. You see it on this website, for Pete's sake.
I have been told to my face on many occassions that I was going to hell because I was Catholic. You'd think people would just have better manners than that. I find this type of behavior to be consistent with the general class and civility of the people with whom I am conversing - the ignorant and rude tend to be a lot more mouthy than the classy and civil.
What ever happened to "if you don't have anything nice to say...just say nothing"
The official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that the NORMATIVE path to salvation is by participating in the Church and receiving the Sacraments (instituted by Christ - conveyed to the Apostles - and made available to all of us...). God may grab anybody He wishes, however, He has left us with instruction and an institution to assist us and formulate our walk.
We are not allowed to "invent" our own personal version of the way to salvation. This has clearly been instructed to us, and we ignore that instruction at our own risk.
Happy Easter. My Lenten refelction on my participation here has lead me to the conclusion that this is an incredible waste of time; that people are hardedend in their pride and arrogance regarding most of these subjects. My prayer is for epiphany - that the Holy Spirit may reveal to one and all the Way, the Truth and the Life that we are to lead to bring us to our hope and desire.
I have no doubts that all here desire salvation. I have some serious doubts about people's ability to get out of their own way and allow the Holy Spirit to make this happen for them.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/23/2008 10:22:29 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
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quote:
The argument that non-Catholics are bound for hell is NOT a strawman -- it IS the accurate view of the Catholic Church
No it is not the accurate view of the Catholic Church.
quote:
Catholics believe they have a monopoly on being able to impart the gift of salvation --
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ started a Church and through that Church would be the normative way to salvation which makes sense.
If Jesus started a Church and gave it authority on Earth (which He clearly did) then one would logically be expected to be a member of His Church if one wanted salvation.
quote:
The whole idea is based on the faulty premis that the Catholic Church is the original Church
So says you that is a faulty premise.
quote:
There is no doubt that to be "properly baptized" is to be baptized in the Catholic Church
It is not true that to be "propery baptized" you must be baptized in the Catholic Church.
To be properly baptized you must be baptized using the Trinitarian formula either by immersion or pouring of water and make a profession of faith (or have it made on your behalf in the case of infants)
As a convert who was previously baptized, I did not need to be baptized to enter full communion with the Church.
quote:
according to their doctrine of baptism -- which is the heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration
Heretical, no.
Scriptural, yes.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/24/2008 12:27:16 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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Happy Easter to all my brothers and sisters in all Christian faith traditions. Christ has risen!
Heavendweller
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/24/2008 9:53:03 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
To further some of these points - In my neck of the woods, I find the Catholics to be much more accepting and genuinely cordial to Protestants than many Protestants are of Catholics. You see it on this website, for Pete's sake.
I have been told to my face on many occassions that I was going to hell because I was Catholic. You'd think people would just have better manners than that. I find this type of behavior to be consistent with the general class and civility of the people with whom I am conversing - the ignorant and rude tend to be a lot more mouthy than the classy and civil.
What ever happened to "if you don't have anything nice to say...just say nothing"
Doghouse,
You are correct, and the reciprocal situation is correct. Depends upon the neighborhood we are in, I reckon. I must repeat your intent, though. When we fail to ask God to lead us and help us focus on Him and loving our neighbors, we are at very high risk of defeating the whole purpose of Christian dialogue. I have been guilty of that myself more times than I wish to remember, but I hope to continue to grow in my relationship with Christ and minimize myself in the process. 
In an attempt to register my astonishment at judgment of salvation:
You are going to hell??!! 
Let us pray that people learn to back away from God's providence. We simply don't have the capability to judge the heart.
I hope that everyone had a blessed and comforting Easter! It is truly joyful to know that He lives and has overcome the world for us!!! 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/27/2008 6:07:13 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6790
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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Sorry to bump in here, but a response tweaked my interest. This one in particular:
quote:
I don't believe that anyone can know for sure they are saved until they die. So the answer is... I don't know.
Actually, I found this to be consistent with responses from other knowledgeable Catholics that I know, and it is the reason why I could never be a Catholic - it would require me to exchange the certain knowledge I have now of salvation for uncertainty.
That being said, I still love and respect my Catholic brethren, and expect I will see many of them in eternity, even if they are uncertain.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 9:00:58 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Sorry to bump in here, but a response tweaked my interest. This one in particular:
quote:
I don't believe that anyone can know for sure they are saved until they die. So the answer is... I don't know.
Actually, I found this to be consistent with responses from other knowledgeable Catholics that I know, and it is the reason why I could never be a Catholic - it would require me to exchange the certain knowledge I have now of salvation for uncertainty.
That being said, I still love and respect my Catholic brethren, and expect I will see many of them in eternity, even if they are uncertain.
Jack,
I have pondered that myself many times. I still do not understand the argument to support it. I am very thankful for the peace granted to me in knowing that death holds no fear.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 12:43:34 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
I have pondered that myself many times. I still do not understand the argument to support it.
By definition you can't have absolute knowledge of your future unless you claim to be essentially "a god". That is the jist of the argument that you can only reasonably say you have "firm hope" in your eternal reward because you are "pre-judging" yourself before the "judge" has His say. And this attitude/approach isn't full of fear.
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Otis
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 1:13:32 PM
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bettyg51
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Once Saved Always Saved?
All of the verses below were addressed to people who already believed in Christ. They clearly show that serious, unrepented sin after coming to faith causes salvation to be lost.:
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: 'A dog returns to his own vomit,' and, 'a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire' " (2 Peter 2:20-22).
"But he who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13).
"But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father in heaven" (Matt. 10:33).
Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,"
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:26-29).
Romans 2:5-8,"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."
"Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS. Otherwise YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF" (Rom. 11:20-22).
Colossians 1:21-23 21 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister."
Rev 3:1 "To the Church in Sardis 1"To the angel[1] of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[2] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead."
Ignore these at your own risk.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 1:29:13 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11601
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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::whispers to Betty::
Where on earth have you been for so long?
Welcome back!
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 1:49:35 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
I have pondered that myself many times. I still do not understand the argument to support it.
By definition you can't have absolute knowledge of your future unless you claim to be essentially "a god". That is the jist of the argument that you can only reasonably say you have "firm hope" in your eternal reward because you are "pre-judging" yourself before the "judge" has His say. And this attitude/approach isn't full of fear.
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Otis
Otis,
If we live as Christians, salvation is a guarantee. This is not being God; this is believing God.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 2:39:52 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
If we live as Christians, salvation is a guarantee.
Wes,
That is a big "if" though that you miss in your own words. Paul himself implies directly in the quote you gave when he says we "hope" in the gospel.
Sorry there are no guarantees.
Otis
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 2:49:37 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettyg51
Once Saved Always Saved?
...
Ignore these at your own risk.
You know what? When I believed that eternal life really didn't mean eternal unless I kept my salvation by my works, I trotted out those same verses and a few more to "prove" that if I made it heaven, it would be by my sweat and my toil and none of that grace thing or being sealed by any Holy Spirit.
But little by little over my 41 years as a believer, I found that my pet verses didn't say what I thought they said but what I wanted them to say.
Eternal really does mean eternal.
Ignore that at the risk of a miserable existence trying to keep what God seals and is trustworthy to keep. As Paul wrote, "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
You committ, He'll Keep.
Saved by Grace, kept by Grace.
When people asked about doing the work the works of God, Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Let's get busy doing the work that counts to Him!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 3:00:02 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
If we live as Christians, salvation is a guarantee.
Wes,
That is a big "if" though that you miss in your own words. Paul himself implies directly in the quote you gave when he says we "hope" in the gospel.
Sorry there are no guarantees.
Otis
Wrongo - and sad if you are trapped in that sweat-shop. Try this on for size:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-1 John 5:13
In fact, read all of 1 John - it's not that long - and look for "know" and its variations. There is no reason, except bad theology, for a believer to walk around wondering or worrying when they can have an ironclad guarantee straight from the written Word (not yours or a denomination's interpretation of that Word).
You CAN know. You SHOULD know.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 4:10:32 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
If we live as Christians, salvation is a guarantee.
Wes,
That is a big "if" though that you miss in your own words. Paul himself implies directly in the quote you gave when he says we "hope" in the gospel.
Sorry there are no guarantees.
Otis
Wrongo - and sad if you are trapped in that sweat-shop. Try this on for size:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-1 John 5:13
In fact, read all of 1 John - it's not that long - and look for "know" and its variations. There is no reason, except bad theology, for a believer to walk around wondering or worrying when they can have an ironclad guarantee straight from the written Word (not yours or a denomination's interpretation of that Word).
You CAN know. You SHOULD know.
AMEN!!! The if is not conditional. When you are a Christian, you will live as one. Do we slip? Yes. Even David did, but God will keep us and chastise us when we need it.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 4:48:05 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 228
Joined: 1/3/2008
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JimboFletch,
You can Know and you should Know -
If (knock on something) I should die today, I would go to heaven (probably purgatory first) as I have no mortal sins on my soul. Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin.
Just remember that Jesus himself declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."
This pretty much sums everything up for me,
"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
Pax,
Mary
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 5:16:22 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
JimboFletch,
You can Know and you should Know -
...Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46)...
Actually, your interpretation is the cause of your unfounded angst. The verse states the evidence of genuine salvation is endurance. Perseverance is an evidence, not an accomplishment. A grain of wheat will remain wheat until the harvest.
A little secret: Anybody who hopes to make it to the end of life without any sin will be disappointed. Jesus was the only exception - and that is why His atonement is acceptable to God. And when you stand before God, your only hope of entrance is the righteousness of Jesus. Scripture does tell us that our righteousness is as the puss-stained rags wrapped around the open, festering wounds of a leper.
Paul, who called himself the chief of sinners, confidently proclaimed that upon death, whenever it came, he would be in the presence of Jesus. I think you will agree that Jesus is at the righthand of the Father in heaven, definitely not in hell nor a place called purgatory.
Go on, read 1 John. There is no reason, aside from a poor understanding of scripture, that a believer has to wonder about where they will spend eternity.
No reason at all.
Once I understood the truth, I've been free of the fear that used to follow me. And, according to scripture, fear is not from God.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/28/2008 5:48:51 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 228
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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JimboFletch,
I have no angst.
I never said I hoped to make it to the end of life without any sin, I have sinned and I will (unfortunatly) I am sure fail and sin again. I said was currently not in a state of Mortal sin, not that I wasn't a sinner.
I have read John, thanks for the suggestion, actually I have read the "whole" book.
Again I don't wonder where I will spend eternity I know that if I die in grace it will be heaven and in mortal sin it will be hell. As one can't accidentally commit a mortal sin I have no fear that I will "accidentally" end up in hell.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/29/2008 12:21:29 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Shouldn't a lot of this go in the Once Saved, Always Saved? thread?
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Glad we cleared that up.
