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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/29/2008 10:10:28 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2618
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
The official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that the NORMATIVE path to salvation is by participating in the Church and receiving the Sacraments (instituted by Christ - conveyed to the Apostles - and made available to all of us...).
quote:
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ started a Church and through that Church would be the normative way to salvation which makes sense.
Now that we know what the "official" position is of the RCC regarding salvation, the question is "Have the Catholics who come to this forum carefully examined the Scriptures to confirm whether the "official" Catholic position is true?" If not, they have done themselves a great disservice.
According to the above dogma, no one could have been saved before the RCC was established, and no Christian outside the RCC can be saved. This is patently false.
Before the RCC ever came into existence, sinners were being justified by God's grace through faith, and Abraham is the prime example. After the resurrection and ascension of Christ, there was no Catholic Church. Yet, on the day of Pentecost, several thousands were added to "the church" because they were saved, not the other way around.
When we read that beleivers were "added to the church" on the Day of Pentecost, we may interpret it in two ways, neither of which corresponds to Catholic dogma: (1) they were added to the ekklesia or called-out ones in Jerusalem and (2) they were added to the Church -- the body of Christ -which constitutes all believers who have been saved by grace through faith.
The sacerdotalism and sacramentalism of the RCC came much later, after many false doctrines had infiltrated the churches (see the book of Revelation). Therefore Scripture does not support the "official" position of the RCC. Salvation is in and through the Savior -- not in a church. Especially not in a church full of false doctrine. Period.
How aptly and truthfully spoken Ezra !
God's work of salvation began prior to the creation
of the RCC. Everything on the "other side of the cross"
was not Catholic, since there was no RCC yet.
Very prolific and thought provoking Ezra !
manna
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/29/2008 11:31:37 AM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 143
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
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quote:
According to the above dogma, no one could have been saved before the RCC was established, and no Christian outside the RCC can be saved.
The statements you referenced do not say what you claim.
What they DO say is that
1. Jesus Christ established a Church
2. Those seeking salvation would logically be in that Church, and
3. This would be the "normal" way to salvation.
quote:
Salvation is in and through the Savior
Preach that Catholicism !!!
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/30/2008 1:19:53 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 431
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
I will not copy your entire post, only you rcommentary at the end, because you have misunderstood what you have posted.
It is not I who cannot see the forest through the trees, my friend. I have studied more than what I have posted here, and only posted those bits from Catholic studies for the sake of brevity. Everything I quote in my posts is from Catholic websites regarding this issue.
Its no wonder that you won't respond to CCC #847, which clearly states that the only non-Catholics today considered to be exceptions to salvation outside the Catholic church are those who are saved by the "baptism of blood" (martydom) or "baptism of desire" (intended conversion to Catholicism) as explained here truecatholic.org: The Church does indeed teach that Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are means of salvation to those who through no fault of their own have not received Baptism of Water, but who have the efficacious (working on it) desire to enter the Catholic Church or who give their life for the name of Our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ.
Though your church teaches this, I would really like to know where the Bible even mentions such means of salvation as "baptism of blood" or "baptism of desire".
quote:
So, when I became a Catholic, I did not *convert*, as conversion implies a change of religion. I was already a Christian, and the Catholic Church considered me as such. Rather, I was received into full communion.
First, I did not choose the word "convert", the Catholic writers of the study choose the word "convert". If you have a problem with the use of the word "convert", you need to address it to those Catholic authors who use it. In fact, you better contact the Catholics at the "Catholic-Converts Blog" website, where they help non-Catholics who wish to convert to Catholicism, to advise them of their perceived error of the use of the word "convert".
Second, according to the Catholic Church, if you were a Catholic, left the faith and then came back -- you are a "revert"; if you were never a Catholic and became a Catholic -- you are a convert. So, you'd better call the Pope his misuse of the word "convert" too. (Oops, I forgot -- you believe he's infallible, so according to your own beliefs, you are definately mistaken about the use of the word "convert".)
Third, the word "convert" means: 1. to accept different religious or political beliefs or attitudes; 2. a person who has been converted or who has adopted new beliefs, esp. those of a specific religion. Since being a "Christian" is NOT a religion and being a "Catholic" IS a religion, you have converted to the beliefs of a specific religion -- Catholicism.
Sorry, but you converted -- you are a convert. No offense intended.
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They did not require me to be rebaptized. The Church believes in *one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins* and I had already received that.
You have mistakenly decided from what you posted that the Church requires a "Catholic baptism." Not true. It is a *Trinitarian baptism* that is required ...
I am not mistaken. What I stated is true according to the teachings of Catholicism.
You were lucky, but not all converts are. As I've said, they believe in "one Baptism", but it must be in accordance with the requirements of the Catholic church -- which is MORE than just a Trinitarian Baptism.
According to the Catholic church, in order for Baptism to be valid it must be administered with the proper 1) form; 2) matter, and 3) intention.
The proper form is to baptize the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (the Trinitarian Formula).
The proper matter is to use real water for the Baptism. Although the preferred method is to immerse one in water, it is valid to pour or sprinkle water over the head as long as there is enough water to flow on the head touching the skin directly. If the water only touches the hair, or does not flow, then it is not valid.
The proper intention of the minister of the Baptism must be to do what the Catholic church intends by the Baptism -- which intent is to wash away sins and regenerate the soul. Hence, the heretical doctrine of Baptismal regeneration must be the intent.
Any group that does not do these three things does not have a valid Baptism. While the Orthodox and some Protestants have valid baptism according to the Catholic church, many others do not.
Additionally, if it is not sure whether one received a valid baptism, the Catholic church performs a "conditional baptism", which is basically a safetly net "blessing" in case the person did not receive a valid baptism the first time. Its amazing how they can change the meaning of their own sacraments when it suits their needs, isn't it.
So one water baptism is all that's required by the Catholic church as long as it is done according to the requirements of Catholic faith -- otherwise, they believe in TWO water baptisms -- one for regeneration and one for a blessing, just in case the first one didn't regenerate you.
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(and whether or not you believe in baptismal regeneration or not is not a Catholic/Protestant issue, as many Protestants believe the same thing, so that is moot for this discussion.)
I agree Baptismal regeneration is not a Catholic/Protestant issue, however, it is not moot for this discussion as this thread is about "Salvation and Catholicism" -- Catholics believe in baptismal regeneration and many non-Catholic faiths do NOT.
Being a "good catholic", you show your ignorance in assuming that I am a Protestant just because I am not a Catholic -- which stems, once again, from the faulty premis that all non-Catholic Christian religions are simply schisms of the Catholic church.
quote:
You also misunderstand this:
quote:
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
This does not mean that all Protestants are bound for hell. It does not even mean that all Catholics who leave the Church are bound for hell. What it *does* mean is that if someone is a member of the Catholic Church--and is convinced that it is the church Jesus established--and decides to leave it anyway, they have committed heresey.
The teaching says nothing about being "convinced that it is the church Jesus established -- and decides to leave it anyway". If one is "convinced", why would they reject its teachings or leave? Makes no sense.
In the 16th Century, all Protestants were considered heretics -- surely they were not "convinced" and left it anyway.
Is a "heretic" saved? No. There is no salvation for a "heretic" or a "schismatic" unless they repent and return to the Catholic faith.
CCC #2089 also sets forth what a "schism" is: the refusal to submit to the Pope or to be a part of the Catholic church.
Those poor Protestants were not only heretics, but schismatics as well. There is no way you can tell me that teaching says they had to be "convinced".
quote:
Heretics can, however, be restored
Granted, Catholics believe heretics can be restored -- by returning to the Catholic faith. Duh. This teaching clearly states that if they are not restored to the Catholic faith, they will not be saved.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/30/2008 1:22:31 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 431
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
And, at the risk of offending someone, I think this is the relevant paragraph from the Catechism:
quote:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
I take no offense as this still counts me out as a separated brethren and destines me to hell according to the Catholic church. Thank you for assuring me, contrary to your argument, that I am not considered joined to the Catholic church.
I have not been justified by faith in Baptism -- I have been justified by faith in Christ. My water baptism fails to meet the "intent" requirement of the Catholic church because I don't believe my sins were washed away by the water (yuck -- imagine being dunked in sin scum  ), I believe my sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ; also because I do not believe I was regenerated by the water, I believe I was regenerated by the Spirit.
Therefore, I am not incorporated into Christ; I have no right to be called a Christian and am not accepted as a brother in the Lord by the Catholic church -- according to CCC #818.
Thankfully, I know the Lord says I AM incorporated into the body of Chirst, that I DO have a right to be called a Christian, and that I AM destined for salvation outside the Catholic church, so I really don't care what the Catholic church says.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/30/2008 12:36:43 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11537
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From: Here, now
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WBN, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think using truecatholic.org in a discussion with Roman Catholics is a good idea.
That site is not Roman Catholic.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 5:17:01 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I take no offense as this still counts me out as a separated brethren and destines me to hell according to the Catholic church. In my opinion, this one single sentence demonstrates and encompasses your complete and thorough lack of understanding and comprehension of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding the subjects of Baptism and Salvation.
A suggestion would be to use authoritative sources, with a genuine interest in learning the truth, instead of perpetuating mythology and continuing (knowingly or unknowingly) to bear false witness against this institution. If you know what the Church actually instructs, and then can evangelize against that, your evangelization will be all the more effective. As it is, your simply sound like you have an axe to grind with a big chip on your shoulder. While your passion is compelling, your mis-appropriation of fact is detrimental to your case. If you are willing to lie to evangelize against the Roman Catholics, you are also willing to lie to evangelize "for" your flavor of faith.
This willingness to compromise your values (telling the truth) to win over souls is a considerable stumbling block, in my opinion.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 10:36:49 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 431
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
WBN, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think using truecatholic.org in a discussion with Roman Catholics is a good idea.
That site is not Roman Catholic.
I only referenced that site for the definitions of the Catholic "baptism of desire" and "baptism of blood". I referenced many other sources that are credible.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 11:51:11 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 431
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
If you know what the Church actually instructs, and then can evangelize against that, your evangelization will be all the more effective. As it is, your simply sound like you have an axe to grind with a big chip on your shoulder. While your passion is compelling, your mis-appropriation of fact is detrimental to your case. If you are willing to lie to evangelize against the Roman Catholics, you are also willing to lie to evangelize "for" your flavor of faith.
This willingness to compromise your values (telling the truth) to win over souls is a considerable stumbling block, in my opinion.
You are calling ME a liar? Wow.
Your whole post is based on an assumption that I am trying to evangelize Catholics. Its interesting that you feel my asking Catholics to admit a teaching of their church is "evangelizing". It would seem that you feel if this teaching of 'no salvation outside the church' WAS ADMITTED, there would be less Catholics as I would be "winning their souls". Hmmm. "Winning their souls" ... this isn't a game to God, so ... who can be looking at this as a game ... Hmmm .... ??? Very insightful, indeed.
However, I have no "axe to grind" regarding the teachings of the Catholic church. I was simply asking that these Catholics be honest and admit the truth as to what their church believes -- that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church -- whether or not they are being properly taught this by their clergy or they believe it personally.
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion about "Salvation and Catholicism" when those who argue for the Catholic church are not being honest with themselves about what Catholcisim has always stated and always will -- there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.
I've noticed that on Christian boards, Catholics are less inclined to admit the teachings of baptismal regeneration and no salvation outside the Catholic church; whereas, on Catholic boards, Catholics are much more open and willing to admit the true teachings of their church -- and are able to present a respectable defense without having to resort to ad hominem accusations like: you don't know what you're talking about; you have a chip on your shoulder; and, you are lying.
I can respect the latter more than the former. And, I understand why it is this way. Since Vatican II, the Catholic church has had to change its tactics to get people to come "home" because so many were leaving the church. They started using "Christian" terminology but the meaning and intent was different; and, they led people to believe their view of non-Catholics had changed to them being simply "separated brethren".
However, it seems these new tactics are backfiring against the Catholic church. Which is why your Pope, who is suppossedly infallible, as recent as last year reaffirmed the long held belief of the Catholic church -- that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Yet, many Catholics don't want to go back to that belief and agree with him -- not now that they've accepted a different view and believe IT IS the correct view. The natural question is, then why are they Catholic if they don't want to listen to and agree with the Pope? Isn't that what the reformation was about -- papal fallibility? If there IS salvation outside the Catholic church, and they don't agree with the Pope, why aren't they willing to leave Catholicism? Is it because they feel guilty about leaving or is it because, deep down, they really have been taught to believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church?
Bottom line: You correctly sensed deception, but I am not the one lying to you, my friend.
< Message edited by WildByNature -- 4/1/2008 12:08:04 PM >
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 12:51:03 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion about "Salvation and Catholicism" when those who argue for the Catholic church are not being honest with themselves about what Catholcisim has always stated and always will -- there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.
Impossible because all Catholics are not being honest! When one continually hears the same thing time and time again from many sources practicing the same faith, why not accept that the error in understand may lie with you, and not that all Catholics are dishonest.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 7:13:57 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 431
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion about "Salvation and Catholicism" when those who argue for the Catholic church are not being honest with themselves about what Catholcisim has always stated and always will -- there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.
Impossible because all Catholics are not being honest! When one continually hears the same thing time and time again from many sources practicing the same faith, why not accept that the error in understand may lie with you, and not that all Catholics are dishonest.
I never said Catholics are dishonest, NOR did I say ALL Catholics are not being honest (with themselves). I was referring to the discussion I was having on this board. Its amazing that my 3 clearly misinformed, little posts (out of 1260!!!) could cause so much animosity to be directed towards me -- instead of towards my posts. Something for YOU to ponder, perhaps?
If you had continued reading my post, you would have read that I don't "hear the same thing again and again" as I have discussed this with Catholics who WERE honest with themselves about their faith and admit they believe there is 'no salvation outside the Catholic church'.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/1/2008 7:15:58 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion about "Salvation and Catholicism" when those who argue for the Catholic church are not being honest with themselves about what Catholcisim has always stated and always will -- there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. This is simply no true. To continue to repeat it is...well...I have already said my piece about that and you responded to it in your first paragraph.
A soul who has followed Mohammed and practiced the Muslim faith his or her entire life may be saved. If, before they die, God leads them to profess Christ as Savior and to have faith and hope (and presumably having practiced charity), then - they are saved. We cannot know what God has in store for anyone, so we are not allowed to presume the state of the soul. This, however, would hardly be the "normative" path by which someone who desires Salvation might actively seek it, or be instructed to seek it.
Jesus has left us with a clear normative path to Salvation - as deposited with Apostles and redacted for our benefit and instruction in Scriptures. If we have the means and are in a situation where this normative path is available to us, we are asked to take it, and to use its help and benefits to assist us.
We are not asked to look down that normative path, and rebel or practice self-definition or instruction when it comes to this information.
If one continues to perpetuate mythology in the light correction, then one is...put any label you care to on it. You may disagree and have opinions about what the Church teaches - your experience with these teachings is limited to whatever time you may have spent in the Church, plus whatever time it took you to mis-appropriate the catechism.
Have you completed RCIA? Have you attended Mass? Are you Baptized (Triune Baptism - doesn't matter where)?
If you do not accept the teachings, instruction and authority of the Roman Catholic Church to formulate your faith and define your walk, then you ARE sepearted from her. But - that is your choice, not the Church's. The Church is merely affirming the state in which you have placed yourself by your choice of beliefs. This is a state in which you are clearly comfortable to reside, and to that there is nothing to be said, except - you are where you are.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 9:52:21 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Jesus has left us with a clear normative path to Salvation
Yes indeed.
And that path is not "the Church" or "the Catholic Church". That path is Himself (John 14:6). It is Christ who is our Savior and our Salvation.
Any other path is false and misleading and not according to Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 10:32:19 AM
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Edward1114
Posts: 4
Joined: 12/16/2007
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Hello everyone,
I have read some of the posting concerning Catholicism and it seems to me that the Lord prayed for unity instead of Division and thats what we have now.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 1:22:21 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes indeed. And that path is not "the Church" or "the Catholic Church". That path is Himself (John 14:6). It is Christ who is our Savior and our Salvation. Once again, I find myself in 100% complete agreement with you, sir. But the second question then is - just what is to follow "Himself" as you have cited in your post.
To me - it is to receive the Sacraments, to participate in the Body of Believers and to avail one's self of the help, instruction and Grace made available through the Church - which Christ Himself established (if it makes you feel any better for the moment, "Church" in the previous sentence could just as well be your Church, or Fritz's Church or PS103's Church, or whatever...).
Do you agree that we are to participate in the Body, and that the Body is made up of believers, and that the believers are called to worhip and participate in relationship with God through Christ, and to choose or exhibit certain behaviors and passion such as a zeal for justice, a practice of charity and a feeling of compassion? Do you believe that some of the Body are lay-people, some are administrators, some are preachers, some are prophets, some are pastoral leaders, some are discerners and teachers? Again - use your own congrergation as a model.
If this is so - then how is the Roman Catholic Church not these things? And by participating in full communion with this institution, how am I not following the same instruction that you claim you are following?
My challenge back to you is that we are not asked to rebels and rogues, but to commune with the Body and to find our place within it to glorify God. We are not asked to dscern instruction alone but to take it from the Apostles - who got it from Jesus. This is the Magisterium - the passing of Apostolic teaching from one generation to the next. Some have chosen to sever this tie and denounce the Deposit of Faith in favor of 16th century Renaisssance re-hashing of an imagined version of what faith was supposed to be, not what it is and what it had become - including for some a dismissal of the Sacraments and a dismissal of charity, mercy and compassion.
No doubt, a reform was due, and the 16th century accomplished that. But reform should be from within, not by a schisming and splintering of the Body into a collection of loosely affiliated sole-discerners. You want a model for reform - look to the Eastern Orthodox.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 1:51:40 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2618
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
I never said Catholics are dishonest, NOR did I say ALL Catholics are not being honest (with themselves). I was referring to the discussion I was having on this board. Its amazing that my 3 clearly misinformed, little posts (out of 1260!!!) could cause so much animosity to be directed towards me -- instead of towards my posts. Something for YOU to ponder, perhaps?
If you had continued reading my post, you would have read that I don't "hear the same thing again and again" as I have discussed this with Catholics who WERE honest with themselves about their faith and admit they believe there is 'no salvation outside the Catholic church'.
Your words are kind, loving, and truth laden...
We should not be alarmed when people disagree.
Not all people understand their faith, therefore it
is difficult for them to articulate their belief system.
Regarding the RCC, they write their own material.
We know with absolute certainty what the RCC says.
It cannot be refuted. It cannot be explained away.
No need to interpret RC writings...they are explicit.
We have posted them before, and somehow the
RC here discard them. Another time-another place.
God NEVER changes; same yesterday, today, 4ever.
Yet, the evolution of the RCC is documented by RCC !
One must ask themselves if the RC here are RC.
There are many branches and tributaries of RCC.
Not all Catholics are catholic (universal). In fact,
it is confusing to us, because the RC are confused.
Talk to RC at the deli, at the theatre, at Starbucks,
at the PTA/PTO, at Rotary, at baseball or soccer-
Most of them are pretty cool people (most folk are)
but most of them are in the dark as to the RCC.
We have maybe a dozen "enthusiasts" here.
These folks also mean well, but are they a true
representation of the RCC ? Read their stuff !!!
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 6:25:30 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Talk to RC at the deli, at the theatre, at Starbucks,
at the PTA/PTO, at Rotary, at baseball or soccer-
Most of them are pretty cool people (most folk are)
but most of them are in the dark as to the RCC.
We have maybe a dozen "enthusiasts" here.
These folks also mean well, but are they a true
representation of the RCC ? Read their stuff !!!
Your right those you meet at the deli, theater, Starbucks are all clueless. ((((sarcasm))))
It couldn't possible be that they don't want argue with you at a soccer game. I know you wouldn't get much out of me at Starbucks, before or after my Coffee!
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 8:53:58 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4019
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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This, from the Catholic Library, which I believe is a good source?
quote:
Can you offer any biblical justification for the Catholic Church's former teaching that it's sinful to eat meat on Friday?
Yes, but, if you recognize the fact that Christ's Church is divinely authorized to teach, sanctify, and govern, there should be no need to "prove" it with biblical examples.
I've never been to the Catholic library before, but in scanning several dozen questions and answers, I found this to be a prevailing attitude. I'm not sure I could be down with a church that doesn't have to prove anything with scripture.
Anyway, I was looking for something about being saved, but I got distracted by that little gem. I actually grew up in an area that was predominantly Catholic, and I was told repeatedly that my friends--and their parents--feared for my "eternal salvation" because I wasn't Catholic. As an adult, I've had numerous conversations about salvation with Catholic friends. Only two or three have said I can be saved outside Catholicism. The others firmly believed I could not, even while professing a belief in salvation by faith alone. That simply says to me that there is, in fact, some teaching that says there is no salvation outside the RCC.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/2/2008 10:18:40 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
Status: offline
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quote:
Hello everyone,
I have read some of the posting concerning Catholicism and it seems to me that the Lord prayed for unity instead of Division and thats what we have now.
The Lord did indeed pray for unity, but the RCC introduced numerous false teachings into their system, and false doctrine brought division.
They are divided from the EOC because of this, and they have divided themselves from Protestants by refusing to believe the Scriptures. Therefore the division will remain.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 2:27:23 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
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Yes indeed. And that path is not "the Church" or "the Catholic Church". That path is Himself (John 14:6). It is Christ who is our Savior and our Salvation. Once again, I find myself in 100% complete agreement with you, sir.
If you are in 100% agreement, then you should also stop insisting that the normative way of salvation is through the Catholic Church. We can't have it both ways.
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But the second question then is - just what is to follow "Himself" as you have cited in your post.
Now this is an entirely separate issue, and does not pertain to salvation or justification, but sanctification or the "walk" of the believer. And to "follow" Christ is to do what He has commanded and to submit to His Lordship in all things.
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To me - it is to receive the Sacraments, to participate in the Body of Believers and to avail one's self of the help, instruction and Grace made available through the Church - which Christ Himself established
If, as you agree, salvation is in and through Christ, it cannot be in the Sacraments. Therefore they must serve another purpose. But the RCC teaches that salvation is in the Sacraments, thus denying that salvation is in Christ Himself alone.
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Do you agree that we are to participate in the Body, and that the Body is made up of believers, and that the believers are called to worhip and participate in relationship with God through Christ, and to choose or exhibit certain behaviors and passion such as a zeal for justice, a practice of charity and a feeling of compassion? Do you believe that some of the Body are lay-people, some are administrators, some are preachers, some are prophets, some are pastoral leaders, some are discerners and teachers? Again - use your own congrergation as a model.
I agree with all of this 100%, But none of this is "salvation". This is the "walk" and "worship" of the believer.
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If this is so - then how is the Roman Catholic Church not these things? And by participating in full communion with this institution, how am I not following the same instruction that you claim you are following?
The error arises when Catholics are taught that salvation is through full communion with the RCC. The Bible teaches clearly that salvation (eternal life) is God's gift to the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and repents. Period. That person receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, indeed the gift of God Himself.
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My challenge back to you is that we are not asked to rebels and rogues, but to commune with the Body and to find our place within it to glorify God. We are not asked to dscern instruction alone but to take it from the Apostles - who got it from Jesus. This is the Magisterium - the passing of Apostolic teaching from one generation to the next.
Had the RCC upheld and taught the true Gospel of salvation by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which automatically excludes Mary), no Christian would have separated himself from her. It is the RCC that departed from true apostolic doctrine by adding to Bible truth.
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Some have chosen to sever this tie and denounce the Deposit of Faith in favor of 16th century Renaisssance re-hashing of an imagined version of what faith was supposed to be, not what it is and what it had become - including for some a dismissal of the Sacraments and a dismissal of charity, mercy and compassion.
The Reformers were Catholics and initially believed that they could reform that church from within. They discovered very quickly that that was impossible, and they themselves were branded as heretics. As to the Catholic understanding of "sacraments", that was rejected by the Protestants. As to a biblical understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper, that was, and is upheld by all true Christians. And Christ is indeed really present at the Lord's Supper, but not in the way taught by Rome.
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No doubt, a reform was due, and the 16th century accomplished that. But reform should be from within, not by a schisming and splintering of the Body into a collection of loosely affiliated sole-discerners. You want a model for reform - look to the Eastern Orthodox.
You can't blame the Reformers for the schism and the splintering. Why didn't the RCC at the time accept the fact that these men were turning to the Scriptures for authority, and it must do likewise? We can safely leave the EOC out of this, since they too are at odds with the RCC and will maintain their "schism". And they have their own set of false doctrines.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/3/2008 8:32:17 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 310
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
You can't blame the Reformers for the schism and the splintering. Why didn't the RCC at the time accept the fact that these men were turning to the Scriptures for authority, and it must do likewise? We can safely leave the EOC out of this, since they too are at odds with the RCC and will maintain their "schism". And they have their own set of false doctrines.
Luther didn't just look to scripture for the truth and authority, he wrote scripture by his authority to fit what he saw as the truth. It is widely accepted (including for those outside of the Catholic Church as well) that Luther added the word "Alone" to Romans 3:28, the word is simply not there in the original text, and Martin Luther himself reportedly admitted this,
You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).
Pax,
Mary
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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