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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/18/2008 3:17:49 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 724
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Hi Ezra,
Thanks for your thots.
quote:
Justification by faith and imputed righteousness were not "innovations" at all. They had been buried under a heap of rubble by the Catholic Church, and because the Reformers returned to Sola Scriptura, it was inevitable that these fundamental Gospel truths be brought to the forefront.
So in essence you are saying that in the beginning the Church possessed the truth and then lost it. Then Luther and the Reformers rediscovered it again. But if that is the way it happened, then what evidence do you have, other than your present reading of the Scriptures through your particular interpretive tradition, that the Church originally believed that folks are justified by faith alone and that justification in its nature is purely imputational?
Good to hear from you and have a good Lord's Day.
ferd
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/18/2008 12:36:18 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
what evidence do you have, other than your present reading of the Scriptures through your particular interpretive tradition, that the Church originally believed that folks are justified by faith alone and that justification in its nature is purely imputational
ferd:
One of the most powerful evidences that this was the teaching of the apostles and their successors in found in the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. See below quoted from The Apostolic Fathers (Ethereal Library):
quote:
Clement of Rome
__________________________________________________________
Introductory Note to the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
__________________________________________________________
[a.d. 30-100.] Clement was probably a Gentile and a Roman. He seems to have been at Philippi with St. Paul (a.d. 57) when that first-born of the Western churches was passing through great trials of faith. There, with holy women and others, he ministered to the apostle and to the saints. As this city was a Roman colony, we need not inquire how a Roman happened to be there. He was possibly in some public service, and it is not improbable that he had visited Corinth in those days.
From the apostle, and his companion, St. Luke, he had no doubt learned the use of the Septuagint, in which his knowledge of the Greek tongue soon rendered him an adept. His copy of that version, however, does not
always agree with the Received Text, as the reader will perceive.
A co-presbyter with Linus and Cletus, he succeeded them in the government of the Roman Church. I have reluctantly adopted the opinion that his Epistle was written near the close of his life, and not just
after the persecution of Nero. It is not improbable that Linus and Cletus both perished in that fiery trial, and that Clement's immediate succession to their work and place occasions the chronological difficulties of the period.
After the death of the apostles, for the Roman imprisonment and martyrdom of St. Peter seem historical, Clement was the natural representative of St. Paul, and even of his companion, the "apostle of the circumcision;" and naturally he wrote the Epistle in the name of the local church, when brethren looked to them for advice.
St. John, no doubt, was still surviving at Patmos or inEphesus; but the Philippians, whose intercourse with Rome is attested by the visit of Epaphroditus, looked naturally to the surviving friends of their great founder; nor was the aged apostle in the East equallyaccessible. All roads pointed towards the Imperial City, and started from its Milliarium Aureum.
But, though Clement doubtless wrote the letter, he conceals his own name, and puts forth the brethren, who seem to have met in council, and sent a brotherly delegation (Chap. lix.). The entire absence of the spirit of Diotrephes (3 John 9), and the close accordance of the Epistle, in humility and meekness, with that of St. Peter (1 Pet. v. 1-5), are noteworthy features. The whole will be found animated with the loving and faithful spirit of St. Paul's dear Philippians, among whom the writer had learned the Gospel.
Clement fell asleep, probably soon after he despatched his letter. It
is the legacy of one who reflects the apostolic age in all the beauty
and evangelical truth which were the first-fruits of the Spirit's
presence with the Church. He shares with others the aureole of glory
attributed by St. Paul (Phil. iv. 3), "His name is in the Book of
Life."...
Chapter XXXII.--We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the
greatness of the gifts which were given by him. [130] For from him*
[131] have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the
altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ
according to the flesh. [132] From him [arose] kings, princes, and
rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory,
inasmuch as God had promised, "Thy seed shall be as the stars of
heaven." [133] All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made
great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the
righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His
will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not
justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or
godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart;but by
that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has
justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
*Abraham
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/18/2008 10:06:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Is it not true that Paul was "working out Salvation, in fear and trembling.." If Paul was not certain that he was saved, what assurance should yo have that you are?
On what authority to you claim Paul speaks of his salvation not being certain? The verse you speak of neither says nor implies what you claim... Nothing in there that states salvation hangs in the balance... It's more like work out what God is working in you...
Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
quote:
I believe within this statement, the burden of proof is on you to establish that there is a difference between the teachings of the RCC and "faith in Christ". They are one in the same. There is nothing instructed by the RCC that is not of Apostolic origin and instruction.
The bible doesn't teach that those who believe in Christ worship the same god as those of the Islamic faith, yet the RCC does...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/18/2008 10:34:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Everybody says this as if the Catholic teachings don't stand up to to Scripture. They do.
They don't here....
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964).
The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet... (Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate (3), October 28, 1965).
The Bible says:Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also (1 John 2:23)
The Vatican says: Together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one merciful God [even though the Qu'ran emphatically denies the Son: "Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son" (Sura 4:171)].
The chasm between Christianity and Islam is infinite, and I would not fool you by pointing out some superficial similarities between the two religions. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the one and only Saviour. Once He asked his disciples what the people thought of Him. They answered that the people thought he was a prophet. Well, he was not content with that answer, and asked the disciples what they thought of Him. Peter spoke up and confessed, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” And Jesus blessed Peter for making that confession. Indeed the Bible states that eternal life is dependent on this very thing - believing in Jesus, the Son of God.
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/19/2008 7:20:51 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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Sovereign,
It was reading the R.C. Catechism and documents such as these from Vat. II which convinced me I could not become a Roman Catholic. How any Christian can declare that the Muslims even remotely worship the same God as Christians is beyond me. When one reads the Quran, it is evident that this religion is opposed to Christ. They hate the Trinitarian God and condemn all those who worship such a God to destruction.
No, I do not worship the same God as the Muslims and they do not worship the Christian God in any way. To declare such a thing is misleading and opposed to Sacred Scripture.
Heavendweller
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/19/2008 9:24:31 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Ezra,
Clement's letter certainly evidences a belief in the primacy of faith with regard to justification. It could be taken to support the idea of the aloneness of faith with respect to justification. It doesn't seem to address the issue of whether justification is purely imputed or if it has imputational (forensic) and infused aspects.
What else is there? I will try to find Clement's letter on line to read it in its entirety. I suspect that a search of the patristic era will just produce tantalizing fragments such as this one but no clear and definitive articulation of the SF doctrine.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/19/2008 1:55:10 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
I suspect that a search of the patristic era will just produce tantalizing fragments such as this one but no clear and definitive articulation of the SF doctrine.
ferd:
If you are looking for a "definitive articulation" of the SF doctrine, all you have to do is carefully study the epistles to the Romans and the Galatians.
Since Catholics believe that these books are Divinely inspired, you can rest assured that this is God's definitive articulation, which is vastly superior to anything written by the church fathers.
The real issue is, are you prepared to believe God as Abraham did?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/19/2008 6:27:47 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Ezra,
When you read the Scriptures you see SF articulated therein. When I read the Scriptures, I don't. That is explainable in terms of our respective interpretive traditions which guide us. Looking at all the scriptural data, you organize it in a certain way and conclude SF is true. What is the history of your particular way of looking scripture? is what I am asking. It won't do to just point to Romans and Galatians, as if they settle the whole issue by themselves and in isolation from the rest of scriptures. They don't.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/19/2008 11:03:38 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
That is explainable in terms of our respective interpretive traditions which guide us.
ferd:
Never mind about our "interpretive traditions".
You tell us from your reading of those verses in Romans 4 quoted in post#1300, what exactly do they mean? This is not rocket science.
Clement says exactly the same thing as what Paul proclaims. So you tell us if they mean something else.
And if they don't, then you must believe them, as Abraham did, and as Paul and Clement did. And as we who believe the Word do.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/20/2008 12:08:45 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 550
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Sovereign,
It was reading the R.C. Catechism and documents such as these from Vat. II which convinced me I could not become a Roman Catholic. How any Christian can declare that the Muslims even remotely worship the same God as Christians is beyond me. When one reads the Quran, it is evident that this religion is opposed to Christ. They hate the Trinitarian God and condemn all those who worship such a God to destruction.
No, I do not worship the same God as the Muslims and they do not worship the Christian God in any way. To declare such a thing is misleading and opposed to Sacred Scripture.
Heavendweller
Hello Heavendweller!
I second you on that. I have a big fat book of the Vatican 2 documents and seriously, they do believe that the Muslims worship the same God. So, the Vatican is basically saying, they don't need to come to Christ in order to be saved, they do enough good works. By their works they can be saved.
That is the Roman Catholic teaching. In Roman Catholicism it is not justification by grace through faith alone, but rather it is a very works based salvation in Roman Catholicism. And because it is works based, that is why they can declare that Muslims are saved, because they do a lot of good works.
I remember one time, while I was still Roman Catholic, that my pastor was preaching a sermon against Martin Luther, and I remeber the sermon was about the book of James. The Book of James is , I would say, the most mis-interpreted book of Sacred Scripture. I was very upset at my priest, because at that time, I stopped doing all the Marian prayers and devotions, and thus, was a protestant in spirit, but still a member of the RCC. Now, I am glad to be out of that mess, and just this past Sunday, became a member of the LCMS.
Anyway, back on topic. The reason the Roman Catholic Church declares that Muslims are saved is because they do a lot of good works.
They even declare Buddhists are saved, and people of other false religions saved.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/20/2008 12:14:00 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11601
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Please provide links that say the Roman Catholic Church says Muslims are saved.
Thanks.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/20/2008 9:13:39 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Mornin Ezra,
It is undeniable, and critical to recognize in these types of discussions, that we each operate within and are informed by a tradition of understanding the Scriptures. Your tradition elevates a particular interpretation of Paul --and not the only plausible one!-- above all other others and views all of scripture through that lens. This is not without its problems. The first problem Luther and the Reformers encountered was how to reconcile their SF filter with James. And what about the words of Jesus! A whole new way of looking at scriptures had to be developed.
Today you see the scriptures through that lens. It enables you to see SF clearly in the Bible, and it is so clear to you you wonder how ferd can fail to see it. You point to Romans and Galations and plead with ferd to just read them and see the light, forgetting that the clarity you see derives from your SF lens.
For example, take Rom 3:28. "We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." You are conditioned to read this to say we are justified by faith alone. My tradition tells me to say we are justified by faith apart from the Mosaic system.
So where did your interpretive tradition come from? It begs the question to just point to the bible.
cordially
ferd
< Message edited by ferdgoodfellow -- 5/20/2008 10:12:05 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/20/2008 10:04:08 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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That you guys use one particular take on Paul as the interpretive key is cheerfully admitted by James White in his The Roman Catholic Controversy: "Instead, we must allow the primary expositor of this issue, in this case, the Apostle Paul, to speak first; his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians must define the issues, for it is in them that we have the direct discussions of exactly how justification takes place. Once we have consulted these sources, we can then move on to garner other elements of the biblical revelation that are found in tangential ways elsewhere...But he [Jesus] did not deem it proper to discuss the specifics of the issues prior to Calvary. In His sovereign will He left that to the Apostle Paul..." (pp.147-148)
The Reformers hermeneutic begins with the assumption of SF, reads specific verse of Paul in light of that assumption, and proceeds to subordinate the rest of scriptures, even the plain words of Jesus, to that interpretation. This is in contrast to the Catholic approach which tries to account for all the scriptural data.
< Message edited by ferdgoodfellow -- 5/20/2008 10:10:52 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/20/2008 3:46:51 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 550
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Please provide links that say the Roman Catholic Church says Muslims are saved.
Thanks.
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."
The Roman Catholic Church, through this article is saying that the Muslims worship the one true God, and they also praise the Muslims for their piety. Therefore, because of this piety, they are lifting up their works (such as how they lift up Mary, fasting, almsgiving) and that before lifting up Christ Jesus. That's giving an impression that the Roman Catholic Church believes these people are saved and therefore do not need to be evangelized in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
Look, they even praise other religions as well.
"Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions"
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/20/2008 8:09:10 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 1:29:26 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
For example, take Rom 3:28. "We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." You are conditioned to read this to say we are justified by faith alone. My tradition tells me to say we are justified by faith apart from the Mosaic system.
Had you continued into Romans chapter 4 (which I have already quoted) you would have discovered that over 500 years before "the Mosaic system" Abraham was justified by faith apart from "works" (Rom. 4:2).
The "works of the Law" are only one aspect of "works" in general, therefore the Bible speaks of "works" by themselves as applied to Abraham and those who lived long before the Law was given.
Also Eph. 2:8,9 speaks of "works" and Titus 3:5 speaks of "works of righteousness". But both these verses exclude works as the basis of salvation. The Holy Spirit says through Paul "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..." (KJV).
So, once again, ferd, what do you see when you read Romans chapter 4? What saith the Scripture? Let's not beat around the bush. You tell us verse by verse what you read. As I mentioned, this is not rocket science.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 1:38:13 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1903
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quote:
The Roman Catholic Church, through this article is saying that the Muslims worship the one true God, and they also praise the Muslims for their piety.
The RCC went off the rails a long time ago. That's why I am directing ferd to the Scriptures to see how wrong is their teaching on salvation. If salvation is by God's grace through faith then it cannot be of works. And if it is of works, it cannot be through faith. Islam is a "salvation" by works, and so is the RCC's doctrine of salvation. In both systems, the finished redemptive work of Christ has little value.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 8:18:06 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Mornin Ezra:
quote:
The "works of the Law" are only one aspect of "works" in general, therefore the Bible speaks of "works" by themselves as applied to Abraham and those who lived long before the Law was given.
Indeed. "Works of the Law" refers to the entire Mosaic system. Paul tells us that we don't git right with God merely by observing the works of the Mosaic system. But beyond that, as we read in Rom 4:4, Paul rejects any kind of work by which we attempt to obligate God. So Paul has eliminated works of the law and works of obligation as factors in our justification. Does that exclude absolutely any and all things we do? e.g, does Paul mean that we are justified apart from works of love performed out of faith? No, the scriptures don't go that far.
But the sola fide mindset drives one to organize the scriptural data in such a way that, in the final analysis, only faith (which is really, really alone) justifies. This is not the only permissible inference from scripture. Nor is it the most plausible one, taking into account all the data.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 8:41:10 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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The fact is Paul never used the phrase "faith alone." If the solitude of faith in regard to justification was on the forefront of Paul's mind, why didn't he just say it? Yet he used the word faith and its cognates (according Robert Sungenis) over two hundred times, often in contexts dealing with faith and justification, and never qualfied them with the words "alone" or "only." And what's more, the only time the Scriptures use the phrase "faith alone" is in James 2:24, where the plain meaning of the text denies sola fide. "man is justifed by works and not by faith alone."
Small wonder there was no tradition of sola fide until Luther. The Word of God itself militates agin it.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 9:02:11 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Ezra and Jessica,
If the Church fell off the rails immediately after the time of the apostles, and the true gospel was only rediscovered by Luther et al, then that means folks were denied the true gospel for 1500 years. It would seem the Holy Spirit was on strike the whole time. Not!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 11:16:01 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 550
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Ezra and Jessica,
If the Church fell off the rails immediately after the time of the apostles, and the true gospel was only rediscovered by Luther et al, then that means folks were denied the true gospel for 1500 years. It would seem the Holy Spirit was on strike the whole time. Not!
Hello ferdgoodfellow!
There was increasing corruption happening in the Church, especially beginning around the dark ages, after the era of the Early Church Fathers. The Dark Ages are 500-1000 A.D. The corruption that began was the worship of the saints and Mary, and the church started to fall away from absolute truth. So around the time of the High Middle Ages, many things started to happen. For example, Marian Apparitions (which encouraged and even demanded worship of Mary), also indulgences started to to be practiced during that time. So there was increasing trouble and corruption. The Church was only asking for a reformation. And God appointed Martin Luther for the work. I see him as having the character, very similar character, to the Apostle Paul. Basically, all Martin Luther did was restore the teachings and practices of the Early Catholic Church, before all the corruption started. Martin Luther did hold on to the Early Church Father's writings, but even 100x more did he hold on to Scripture. Sacred Scripture is the final authority, as was practiced in the Early Church.
Confessional Lutherans call ourselves Evangelical Catholics. We are Catholic because of the historical creeds, worship, and sacramentalism, but we are Evangelical in our trust in the good news of Christ, that in His cross, He has saved us by sheer grace for a life of Christian freedom.
And about your comment on the Holy Spirit being on strike. The Holy Spirit is always on strike against false teachings. That is why God appointed Martin Luther for reforming the Church because that is what needed to happen. Reality set the standard.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/21/2008 11:22:03 AM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 12:57:27 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Jessica,
I'm supposed to be at work, so not much time to play around.
Who was the Martin Luther of the Patristic era who taught sola fide as Luther understood it?
Have a great day!
cordially
ferd
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 2:19:55 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11601
Joined: 4/16/2005
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quote:
The Roman Catholic Church, through this article is saying that the Muslims worship the one true God, and they also praise the Muslims for their piety. Therefore, because of this piety, they are lifting up their works (such as how they lift up Mary, fasting, almsgiving) and that before lifting up Christ Jesus. That's giving an impression that the Roman Catholic Church believes these people are saved and therefore do not need to be evangelized in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
Thank you for responding, Jessica, but I do not see anywhere in there that is says anyone of another religion is saved.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 2:34:12 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 550
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Hi Jessica,
I'm supposed to be at work, so not much time to play around.
Who was the Martin Luther of the Patristic era who taught sola fide as Luther understood it?
Have a great day!
cordially
ferd
The Apostle Paul.
Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
There are many others also, Romans 4 is also another good example, but what these verses are saying is our salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. Works cannot justify us, for our works are dirty rags in God's eyes.
Sola gratia, Sola fide, Solus Christus
We are saved by grace alone, throguh faith alone, in Christ alone.
The alone part, is for emphasis that it is only by grace through faith that we are saved. Not works. Works cannot justify us before God.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 2:44:35 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 550
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
The Roman Catholic Church, through this article is saying that the Muslims worship the one true God, and they also praise the Muslims for their piety. Therefore, because of this piety, they are lifting up their works (such as how they lift up Mary, fasting, almsgiving) and that before lifting up Christ Jesus. That's giving an impression that the Roman Catholic Church believes these people are saved and therefore do not need to be evangelized in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
Thank you for responding, Jessica, but I do not see anywhere in there that is says anyone of another religion is saved.
I understand the document did not say the word 'saved.' But to say that the Muslims worship the One True God, that alone, gives the impression that the Roman Catholic Church believes that Muslims can be saved through their own religion, and therefore do not need to believe in Jesus Christ as true God.
Seriously though, I never see Roman Catholics go out and evangelize people. And, if they do, they are Marian missionaries. Bringing people to Mary, not Jesus Christ.
Anyway, to get back on topic, what the Vatican is doing is a play on words. To say the Muslims worship the One True God is to say they are saved. You may not see the word 'saved' in the document, but the document is a play on words. Again I am going to post the last sentence of my previous post.
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions."
The Catholic Church is not rejecting any religion is basically what it is saying. They, by not rejecting these religions, are promoting them. Promoting that these religions have God's truth in them. To say that is just pure wrong.
The Catholic Church has a very universalist mindset.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/21/2008 2:51:16 PM >
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 3:05:53 PM
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Ps103
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