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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/10/2008 5:41:54 PM
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Heavendweller
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On that Imputed Righteousness idea, I was thinking of something just recently.
Remember that game you used to play as a child when you would cover your face with both of your hands? And you thought your parents couldn't see you? Well, that's kinda how I see IR. God, you can't really see my sin, instead when You look at me, all You see is Jesus.
Along this line, I once knew a guy in Bible college. Every single time I asked him how he was he would reply, "I doing fine in Christ Jesus." After responding this way several times, I finally said to him, "But how are you personally? What's going on in your life?" He always hid behind "being fine in Christ Jesus."
Well, one day my husband and I were walking downtown and who should we bump into but, "Fine in Christ Jesus" man. And guess what? He was pimping! And at the same time, he was conducting a "Christian" radio program. Our actions cannot be separated from who we are. Our actions, both private and public, bear witness to who we are. "The sins of some men are conspicuous, pointing to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. So also, good deeds are conspicuous; and even when they are not, they cannot remain hidden." I Timothy 5:24-25
We cannot serve two masters, for either we will hate the one and love the other, or we will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Heavendweller
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/12/2008 10:46:00 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Well, one day my husband and I were walking downtown and who should we bump into but, "Fine in Christ Jesus" man. And guess what? He was pimping! I have never seen this extreme a case of a disconnect between a faith verbally professed, and a faith actually practiced. In my neck of the woods, its much more subtle - and more widespread, it seems.
My wife and I went to a "seminar" for a buying club, which shall go unnamed, but basically consisted of paying an upfront fee in order to get a discount on furniture, carpet, cabinets, etc. The structuring of the fee was in such a way that the total cost of the transaction was fairly well hidden. This was a local franchise of a national business, and the local franchise had several complaints with the better business bureau about the deceptive nature of the transaction (we found all this out doing research after the seminar). We figured we had to spend $20,000 on our house to get to the "break-even" on the fee.
Anyway, at the end of the pitch (which my wife and I wanted no part of...), when my wife and I realized we had been duped into wasting a couple of hours of our time, the pitchman left us with one final thought...that we should take Jesus into our lives and accept Him as Lord and Savior, and that we should do so at the XXXXX Church.
"Perfect", I thought....
So here is a crew basically giving us all a bad name. For some reason, I tend to see a lot of this kind of shenanigans in my community - from unscrupulous and abusive employers to shady car salesman to the above example. Treating people like dirt, and then inviting them to accept Jesus into their lives, just like they themselves have done.
I'm not sure what kind of Christianity that is, which allows one to be deceptive and dishonest, and yet still claim salvation. Except to label it "false" Christianity.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/12/2008 10:52:01 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/13/2008 7:33:51 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Mornin HD and DH,
As I said earlier, we tend to act in accordance with our self image. Therefore, tis vitally important that we understand who we are in Christ. If we think we have undergone merely a change of status and not a change in nature, then that belief has consequences.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/13/2008 7:47:52 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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So the "imputed righteousness only" view definitely has its downside. And it is the predominant, although not the only, view within Protestantdom today.
It is interesting that even though the germ of the idea of IR came from Luther, his original insight and positive contribution to the Church's understanding of justification, salvation and all that were spot on. It is all God's grace. We do indeed apprehend it by faith. But with regard to keeping the law in a general sense, our faith does not dispense us from fulfilling the law. It empowers us.
In Luther's words, "We are enabled to accomplish what we are bound by the law to do; for the latter is so high and of such range that no human power is capable of keeping it. Consequently, it is absolutely essential to teach faith, so as to know how we can keep the ten commandments as God exacts of us, we should need neither Creed nor Prayer." [from the Great Catechism]
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/14/2008 8:10:40 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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I've been reading Louis Bouyer's The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism. Regarding the source of the innovation of a purely imputed righteousness or "extrinsic justification" he writes (p. 184):
quote:
To the historian, the reply is obvious. The Reformers no more invented this strange and despairing universe than they found it in Scripture. It is simply the universe of the philosophy they had been brought up in, scholasticism in its decadence. If the Reformers unintentionally became heretics, the fault does not consist in the radical nature of their reform but in its hesitation, its timidity, its imperfect vision. The structure they raised on their own principles is unacceptable only because they used uncritically material drawn from that decaying Catholicism they desired to elude but whose prisoners they remained to a degree they never suspected. No phrase reveals so clearly the hidden evil that was to spoil the fruit of the Reformation than Luther's saying that Occam was the only scholastic who was any good. The truth is that Luther, brought up on his system, was never able to think outside the framework it imposed, while this. it is only too evident, makes the mystery that lies at the root of Christian teaching either inconceivable or absurd.
< Message edited by ferdgoodfellow -- 6/14/2008 4:46:52 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/14/2008 8:14:43 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Bouyer continues:
quote:
What, in fact, is the essential characteristic of Occam's thought, and of nominalism in general, but a radical empiricism, reducing all being to what is perceived, which empties out, with the idea of substance, all possibility of real relations between beings, as well as the stable subsistence of any of them, and ends by denying to the real any intelligbility, conceiving God himself only as a Protean figure impossible to apprehend.
In these circumstances, a grace that produces a real change in us, while remaining purely the grace of God, becomes inconceivable...
< Message edited by ferdgoodfellow -- 6/14/2008 8:53:21 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/14/2008 9:09:42 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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I am still reading and trying to understand McGrath (gonna hafta learn some ecclesiastical Latin). He says this on the subject of the effect of the via moderna on Luther (pp.233-34):
quote:
Luther's relation to the via moderna is rather more complex, and remains the subject of investigation. There can be no doubt that Luther's early theology, up to the year 1514, as well as some elements which persist until 1515, is essentially that of the via moderna. This is particularly evident in the case of his understanding of the covenantal foundations of justification, his interpretation of the axiom facienti quod in se est Deus non denegat gratiam, his understanding of the notion of iustitia Dei, and his critique of the inmplication of created habits in justification. Is is also clear that Luther's 1517 dispute against 'scholastic theology' is actualy directed specifically against Gabriel Biel. The question which remains to be answered, however, is whether Luther appropriated any elemnts of the theology of the via moderan in his later theology of justification...Neither Biel nor Ockham, iof course, develops a doctrine of the imputation of righteousness, which enormously weakens the case for any putative positive influence from the via moderna in this respect. We must look elsewhere for the origins of Luther's understandings of the reputatio of the iustitia Dei aliena to believers....
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/14/2008 4:19:21 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Bouyer continues:
"What, in fact, is the essential characteristic of Occam's thought, and of nominalism in general, but a radical empiricism, reducing all being to what is perceived, which empties out, with the idea of substance, all possibility of real relations between beings, as well as the stable subsistence of any of them, and ends by denying to the real any intelligbility, conceiving God himself only as a Protean figure impossible to apprehend.
In these circumstances, a grace that produces a real change in us, while remaining purely the grace of God, becomes inconceivable...
Goodfellow,
Yesterday I attended a funeral. Afterward, my husband and I spent many hours with a Calvinist brother in the Lord. At one point, we were having a discussion about the first time we heard the Lord speaking to us. At one point I began speaking about the first time I encountered "evil" knowing that it was actually evil and that this evil came in the reality of Satan.
Our Calivinist friend brought up the movie "Lion King." He said that he had a spiritual awakening when the father lion said to his son, "Remember who you are." Our Calivinist friend then said that it hit home to him that he was actually a child of the King. And then he said that if we kept this reality before us at all times, imagine the choices we would make and how we would live.
I say this in that while people may ascribe to a certain soteriology, they can also recognize the necessity and importance of actually living the Christian life by deeds and not only professing it. Simply put "Ya gotta walk the talk." I remember that one from a brother in the Wesleyan church. 
Heavendweller
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/14/2008 7:54:18 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hey HD,
Yes, there no escaping that our faith has to produce fruit, and I think all serious Christians believe that and live that.
The danger for all of us, no matter what soteriology we operate under, is that of presumption. It seems that scripture decisiviely rules that out for all of us.
Wishing you and your hubby (and kids, dogs and cats) a wonderful weekend, and you husband a nice Dad's Day.
I got a Dewalt cordless drill. Real manly power tool. Already fixed sumptin.
cordially,
ferd
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/15/2008 7:52:28 AM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
If we think we have undergone merely a change of status and not a change in nature, then that belief has consequences. A big, fat, up-top, stretching-my-calves high-five amen to this....
I believe the conclusion of this thought process is that if the faithful believe by whatever means that they are "saved", then that should be evidenced by charity. So, if charity is absent, self-reflection and examination is warranted to understand why, or to resolve to fix that problem.
Does this make charity "required"? I am saying it does. Not to earn salvation, but to demonstrate it.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/17/2008 9:29:50 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
I got a Dewalt cordless drill. Real manly power tool.
Now Ferd has enough toys to be dangerous.
quote:
Already fixed sumptin.
We know. Ferdie fixing sumptin.
Appreciate overview of Bouyer's book- the guys isnt an idiot, and not hysterical,I liked it. THey should have elected him a Pope, not ecumenical to the point of losing his identity yet respectful to protestantism.
Looks like we all agree that faith has to be lived and demonstrate itself in charity. Now from practical standpoint, Ferd, do you think, based on your (personal) experience , that SF, SS etc. hinders the christian walk ? Or is your objection to it merely theological? I dont see any practical advantage of either position, honestly.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/18/2008 8:36:06 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Odeliya,
Thanks for the cartoon. Not too far from the truth!
quote:
Looks like we all agree that faith has to be lived and demonstrate itself in charity. Now from practical standpoint, Ferd, do you think, based on your (personal) experience , that SF, SS etc. hinders the christian walk ? Or is your objection to it merely theological? I dont see any practical advantage of either position, honestly.
Yes, SF, SS etc. hinder the christian walk. But to explain this properly will take time and I will be out of commission traveling for the next two weeks.
God bless you all
ferd
ps. I also very much appreciate Kate the mod.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/18/2008 6:32:47 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
But to explain this properly will take time and I will be out of commission traveling for the next two weeks. Be safe.
I'll request the prayers of St. Christopher for your safety, and will request the same from St. Joseph (just in case that whole "Christopher is a legend" thing is for real), who I understand is the "new patron of travel" for safely escorting Mary and the newly-born Jesus out of harm's way...
...that's another thread, I suppose...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/7/2008 8:29:32 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Greetings all,
Thank you for your prayers whilst I was out and about.
Back to Odeliya's question, "Does SF hinder the Christian walk?" I think we all tend to act in accordance with our beliefs, whether about ourselves, God or udders. When I step out of the confessional, freshly shriven, it is important to know and internalize who I am, what has happened to me, who is God and how does God see me now. Now I can certainly and truly feel forgiven. I can know in that moment that Satan, my accuser, stands mute because God has absolved me of all my past sins, big and small. What can he say? There is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
But have I merely been forgiven (as great a gift as that is), or have I also been transformed and recreated? If, as Luther believed, justified man is like a pile of manure covered in snow, then that puts limits on my expectations for growing in holiness. If I believe I am sin and nothing but sin, then that's what we're gonna get. And we know where that leads. But if, as St. Paul reminds us, I have the Spirit of God in me, that I share in the inner life of the Trinity, and that I am a restored child of God, and that when God sees me he sees his righteousness in me, that puts things in an entirely different light. We tend to act in accordance with our spiritual self-concept.
Luther's great insight and re-discovery was that salvation is entirely due to God's grace. It is, as St. Theresa Avila once exclaimed, "all grace." But Martin spoiled his Reformation by putting limits on what God does when he justifies sinful man. Martin's innovation, his "theological novum," as Alister McGrath calls it, was that justification is purely an event external to man. It is all about how God sees us now and now about what has been imparted to us.
This led to the complete separation of justification and sanctification. Luther himself recognized the problem when complained about the prevalent antinomian attitude and general decline in holiness present after his revolution took hold. And it does seem that the subsequent waves of Reform (except the antinomian types) in one way or another tried to reform this.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/10/2008 10:39:53 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
If, as Luther believed, justified man is like a pile of manure covered in snow, then that puts limits on my expectations for growing in holiness.
Ferd:
Welcome back.
I have no idea of whether or not this was Luther's teaching. We'll let the Lutherans tell us. But this is certainly not the Scriptural or evangelical position on the nature of the believer.
quote:
If I believe I am sin and nothing but sin, then that's what we're gonna get. And we know where that leads.
I doubt very much whether anyone in evangelical Christianity teaches this.
quote:
But if, as St. Paul reminds us, I have the Spirit of God in me, that I share in the inner life of the Trinity, and that I am a restored child of God, and that when God sees me he sees his righteousness in me, that puts things in an entirely different light. We tend to act in accordance with our spiritual self-concept.
This is exactly what Scripture and evangelical Christianity teach. However God sees His righteousness in us only because He justified us by His grace when we believed the Gospel and repented. This is imputed righteousness.
At the same time, He does not eradicate our sin nature, but He does give us the gift of the Holy Spirit in order to empower us to overcome sin and temptation. This is where sanctification begins and continues until glorification. You can call this "imparted righteousness" or "progressive sanctifiction" or being transformed into the likeness of Christ day by day. But while this is happening, the sinner is seen as a saint by Christ (but not by Catholics).
The real issue is whether or not justification means that we are indeed saved and have also received the gift of eternal life, and that if we were to die tonight we would be in Heaven with Christ. That this is a present reality is true for evangelical Christians. But this is not so for Catholics, who must travel through Purgatory (fundamentally another hell) before they can reach Heaven. And that is the real problem.
Catholicism is not content with the fact that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved. Period. It has added numerous other conditions to salvation by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. Therefore Catholicism is a denial of the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit. Hence it is "another gospel".
Now the onus is on you to come out of Catholicism and believe the Bible.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/13/2008 9:02:36 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
However God sees His righteousness in us only because He justified us by His grace when we believed the Gospel and repented. This is imputed righteousness. God sees us as we are - period. If we are sinners wallowing in the mud if human wants and desires, then that is how we are seen. If we are sinners trying to pick ourselves up out of the mud, shaking ourselves off and reaching up to the hand of Jesus to pull from the pit, then that is also how God sees us. Righteousness then is not imputed, but it is something we actually become as we choose to accept and follow Jesus. Should we elect at anytime to dismiss that profession and dive back into the mud, freely, of our own will, then we are back to wallowing in the mud.
There is no "fooling" God, or whitewashing what we really are by covering ourselves with the "snow" of "imputed righteousness". Unfortunately, God has x-ray vision and can see right through the snow. The only one fooled by the doctrine of imputed righteousness is the believer, not God.
quote:
But this is not so for Catholics, who must travel through Purgatory (fundamentally another hell) before they can reach Heaven. Hell is eternal separation from God and is aplace that the human soul chooses to place itself in. Purgatory is a place where the soul is refined in order for it to be pristine for entry into heaven. There is an entire thread running on that subject.
If dirty souls can enter heaven wrapped in the gift wrapping of imputed righteousness, then there is no need for purgatory. However, Scriptures (Corinthians, Matthew and Luke, and Revelations) are pretty clear that the soul must be spotless to enter heaven, and that if we don't work to make this happen on earth, there is a place and process where it can happen when we die - if we have faith.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/14/2008 11:44:48 AM
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Odeliya
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Ladies and gentlemen,
I would say we can successfully let the “I am a piece of snow covered dung” argument be put to rest.Nobody believes it,as Ezra said,may I also assure you I don’t know of any chirstian that considers himself that. We are pure as snow or white as wool in God’s eyes. We are not paying for our own sins, Jesus paid for them.
If Luther said it, whachu gonna do, he was a rare idiot at times. He is lucky his anti-Semitic babbling quit flowing way before I was born! Otherwise that son of a gun would have a real reason to perpetually hate Jews. I would teach him a lesson or two about unwiseness of being an ass and need to act as a polite, respectful human.
So forget it, friends DH and Ferd, will just let it go. He was dumb sometimes, just as all of us humans are.
As for the rest of the post, I appreciate your input and opinion, Ferdie, as usual.
Another thing- I just read on Turret.blog interesting thing.2 reasons i am not a romanist:!Because (1) you can do everything Rome tells you to do and still perishI think that is pretty brilliant of His Curly Highness to point out, that is what I also am afraid of in case of my catholic friends.How would you answer that and what do you and other RC’s do to ensure that is not the case for them and their loved ones?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/15/2008 7:18:29 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
We are pure as snow or white as wool in God’s eyes. Only if we are really pure. Not if we are wretched sinners, pretending to be pure under some "halloween costume" of imputed righteousness. Plenty of people believe this, in my experience - enough to bring it up here when evangelizing faith.
quote:
2 reasons i am not a romanist:!Because (1) you can do everything Rome tells you to do and still perish I haven't been there in a while. I could just as easily do a blog on the grave errors of the reformed, but choose rather to spend my time here talking with you in a dynamic forum, than pontificating on a static blog page.
I found turret's blog to be so repleat with strawmen that I could feed 100 head of cattle with it. I too can claim that some believe the world is flat, and then cite all the evidence that we have to show that the world is round.
Oh, what a hoot that would be...
Stating a false hypothesis and then spending time proving it false isn't particularly clever now, is it?
quote:
How would you answer that and what do you and other RC’s do to ensure that is not the case for them and their loved ones? Simply by observing the fruits that faith produces. This is all it takes to guess as to the effectiveness of faith and a Church - observe the behavior of its followers and practicers.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/15/2008 7:26:07 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/15/2008 3:05:22 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
If, as Luther believed, justified man is like a pile of manure covered in snow, then that puts limits on my expectations for growing in holiness.
quote:
I have no idea of whether or not this was Luther's teaching. We'll let the Lutherans tell us. But this is certainly not the Scriptural or evangelical position on the nature of the believer.
Hello everone!
About the pile of manure covered in snow thing, I have never heard myself that this was Luther's teaching, and I am a member of the LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod). Anyway, I decided to get out Table Talk of Martin Luther, since it has some really good stuff in there.
Table Talk
223
Original sin, after regeneration, is like a wound that begins to heal; though it be a wound, yet it is in course of healing, though it still runs and is sore.
So original sin remains in Christians until they die, yet itself is mortified and continually dying. It's head is crushed in pieces, so that it cannot condemn us. (Martin Luther)
Basically Martin Luther is saying after we are justified by faith in Christ, Christ's righteousness becomes our own righteousness, and becuase of this faith, good works naturally follow, making us more into the likeness of Christ (sanctification) . But original sin still remains. Sin is still there, because of the fact that we are conceived and born in sin (Psalm 51:5). So, God does look upon a believer through the eyes of Jesus, but our sin still remains, and there remains a need to repent daily, which is part of our sanctification. Sin is filthy, sin is icky, sin is eeeeewwwww. Anyway, because we have faith in Jesus Christ, God looks upon us through the eyes of Christ because of His atonement, even though we didn't deserve this grace. But because we are growing in holiness, original sin becomes less and less, even though it does remain, but it cannot overcome us.
Isaiah 1:18-20
18"Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."(ESV)
Basically this passage is saying the same thing Martin was saying. If you have faith in God through Christ Jesus, His righteousness becomes your own, and naturally good works will follow, making you more like Him. But your sin remains, and your sins are filthy. There is no good work that we can do to be saved, it is only by faith that we are saved. So God didn't have to send His One and Only Son to die on the cross for us, but He did, because of His abundant mercy. So when we have faith in Jesus, no matter how bad our sin is, Christ's righteousness becomes our own and in a way, God does look over our sin. But when we are justified by faith, God reveals to us our sinfulness, and we will see the need to repent daily. But for those who do not see the need to repent, beware, lest you fall from the faith and become worse than an unbeliever.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/15/2008 3:28:24 PM
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Odeliya
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Dear Jessica,
thank you for clarification from a Lutheran viewpoint.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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We love you, mama Kate, to bits. Even it's obvious that theo threads bunch is armed and dangerous - God won't forget your hard work. We here can only do gumflapping, otherwise we are talentless - but i think snarkies written you an Ode to Mod, no? Someone is finally grateful :))
