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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/2/2008 8:31:21 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Talk about elitism--if what wasn't for those ignorant people the reformation would have happened so much sooner! So if they were so illiterate then how could they have applied solo scriptura???
It's called the printing press. These people finally gained access to God's Word, and were education and literacy was on the rise, and people started thinking for themselves.
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love.ben
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/2/2008 9:02:56 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
Talk about elitism--if what wasn't for those ignorant people the reformation would have happened so much sooner! So if they were so illiterate then how could they have applied solo scriptura??? BTW, Tyndal biographers point out that Henry had a role to play in his death and it was the secular authorities that carried out his execution. And what does praying to saints have to do with power? Yes, we all like a good debate also based on facts and not wild assertions.
Um... we're in the "Why do we need a pope" thread for the record.
But, as I said, as people became more literate, and the Bible was translated into their language, they were able to start reading God's Word for themselves, and they came to a few realizations about what the RCC was selling them.
What does praying to the saints have to do with power? It's a demonstration. "Here's all the great people that were part of the RCC and they're your lifeline to God... better not leave this church, all the saints are from the RCC and they won't like it... That's the entire basis of your argument, isn't it? That the RCC has all the good stuff and if you aren't part of the RCC then you're missing out?
Claiming that the secular authorities were solely responsible for killing Tyndale is like saying that the Romans are solely responsible for killing Jesus.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/2/2008 10:19:53 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1016
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
If you consider, Catholics, Orthodox, some Anglicans and a few other denominations all pray to the saints, that's roughly 3/4 of the worlds Christians. This is not a new idea nor one shared by only a few, it has been a longstanding accepted practice within Christianity. So I'm curious, to why those who don't pray to the saints -
Why are you so bothered that some Christians do?
Why do you think this practice went unchallenged for 1600 years or so?
Why does it bother us?
Simple...
"Wide is the gate, and broad is the way..." Not to mention your statistic about 3/4 of the worlds Christians committing idolatry... That is really scary to us. So is how scripture speaks of the elect being deceived.
This went unchallenged for such a long time because anyone who challenged it was usually put to death in some incredibly cruel and horrible manner. Knowing that is hanging over your head is a really good reason to stay silent...
EDIT... Argh! Wrong thread, again!
I guess it does fit here, as no popes have had the courage to set the record straight... If any of them was really as in touch with God as you seem to think they are, they would have rid the church of all these faulty teachings and beliefs... We all know that this won't happen because then papal fallibility would be proven and the house of cards would tumble to the ground...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/2/2008 10:31:03 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/2/2008 11:47:58 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
But, as I said, as people became more literate, and the Bible was translated into their language, they were able to start reading God's Word for themselves, and they came to a few realizations about what the RCC was selling them.
Oh please. First of all they heard the Word every week or daily and as far as I know they still had free will. And many people from the beginning split from the faith--Gnostics, etc. And as far as I can tell many people stayed in the Catholic Church.
quote:
What does praying to the saints have to do with power? It's a demonstration. "Here's all the great people that were part of the RCC and they're your lifeline to God... better not leave this church, all the saints are from the RCC and they won't like it... That's the entire basis of your argument, isn't it?
Always the negative take on all things Catholic. The large majority of saints are made so because the local people who saw the saint in action had to convince the Church that a person is indeed a saint. It is very much a grassroots effort. They are great examples and set the example for people to follow. So you lets burn all the statues like the good ole prot-days.
quote:
That the RCC has all the good stuff and if you aren't part of the RCC then you're missing out?
Exactly! You got it! The Church holds up all examples of exceptional virtue and faith. Numerous converts have realized that as well. Of course there is "good" in other faiths, but you can't realize the "full monty" if you will.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/2/2008 11:51:29 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Ezra what do the Jews need the Pope for?
Peter:
The Jews do not need the Pope. Benedict needs to conciliate the Jews (for his own reasons). See below.
quote:
In February 2008, Pope Benedict XVI made the decision to reformulate the Catholic Church’s traditional Good Friday prayers. The Latin prayers for Good Friday ask Catholics to “pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also make acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ,” and ask God not to “refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness." The new text will drop all references to the “darkness” and “blindness” of the Jews.
The Pope had issed a “Motu Propio” edict permitting the use of this version of the prayer from the 1962 Latin Tridentine missal in July 2007. But after protests from leaders in the Jewish community, the Pope drafted a new version to be used in time for the Holy Week celebrations in March 2008.
quote:
why is the Pope gathering, "with Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and representatives of other religions,"
---for peace---What kind of peace!
The false peace of the Antichrist. When the Antichrist appears on this earth, he will compel all men to follow one religion -- the worship of the Antichrist -- while he maitains a false peace for a limited period. We don't know how the RCC will fit into this, but that it will somehow is revealed in Scripture.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 3:52:46 AM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Appreciate the explanation on dogmas, Authorcrat,
would you also kindly give me an example of traditions and practices that are subject to change?Marty gave an example of priests celibacy, do you have some more? Limbo would qualify as what?
Hi Odeliya,
Thank you very much for your reply.
As a rule, anything that is not dogmatic or doctrine emanating from General Councils representing the universal college of bishops (episcopate), and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra, can change. Decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible, neither are theological opinions and disciplines. All of these can change.
Practices such as the liturgy of Mass, celibacy of the priests (as Marty pointed out), abstaining from meat on Fridays, can change to bring about a more worthy, Holy approach to the worship of God and doing penitence.
The belief in Limbo has always been a theological opinion because the Church does not know the fate of the souls of the unborn or unbaptised children. It was thought at first that they would enjoy happiness but not the beatific vision. Until there is more study and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to allow Scripture to illuminate a more definite teaching, it will remain a theological opinion. The Church’s position is to trust in God’s mercy and His special affinity to children.
Vatican document on limbo: Hope for Salvation of Infants
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 3:57:57 AM
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authorcrat
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Thank you, Zhi, for your reply.
Part 1:
I have always maintained the Church is not a building but the body of believers, the Mystical Body of Christ on earth. I am with you that it is those who believe on Jesus, regardless of color, language, style of worship, denomination, organization, or anything else. But the reality of the present situation tells us that there is no unity among all people who call themselves Christian. The challenge for each of us is to determine in which Church, since there are so many now, the true teaching of Christ is preserved, simply because there can only be one truth. This single Truth that Christ handed down to His Apostles unadulterated for posterity has got to be somewhere.
Part 2:
I admit that there is a possibility of a heretic succeeding the Chair of Peter that the Pope occupies. Honorius 1 was one of them. You could also include Liberius, where he supposedly gave in to the Arian heresy that rejected the term homoousios and condemn Athanasius for defending it. Then, there was the issue of Western Schism in the 15th century and the controversy of three popes.
Although today, with all the safeguards in place after the lessons of history, there is still a possibility of a heretic becoming pope, simply because we will never know what is in their hearts.
But in all cases in the past, with Liberious, Honorius 1 and the three popes saga, not one teaching of the Universal Church has been tainted. Nothing has been offered for universal belief to the faithful, nothing has been taught by the popes in this regard. For us Catholics, we belief that although the guardians of God’s Truth may sin, they will not be allowed by Him to propagate falsehoods to taint that Depository of Faith. That record is still clean.
Galileo is an interesting case. First of all the, Church was never against his theory of heliocentricity and had in fact encourage the study of it. If truth be told, the Protestants were claiming it to be heretical at the time. In fact the theory was put forward years before the birth of Galileo by a Catholic priest, Nicolaus Copernicus, in 1543. Galileo’s new findings on the theory were well received by the Catholic Church, especially among many Jesuit priests. The problem came when Galileo moved his scientific findings into the theological field after a controversial Catholic priest Tommaso Caccini called his scientific theory heretical. Had he left it alone, nothing would have come out of it, but when he pursued it to say it was Scripturally true, it became a point where it had to be clarified by a tribunal.
In short, Galileo was never charged for his heliocentricity theory, but for heresy because he claimed that it was scripturally true and therefore a doctrine. He was also never excommunicated as claimed by some. His claimed that heliocentricity is scripturally true was in the end proven wrong because the sun is not a stationary body as many believed in later years, but actually moving around the galaxy.
To be sure, the Catholic Church has not had any official teaching on science that is not related to faith or morals and which would bind the faithful and has always left these studies to the scientific community.
This is a lengthy discourse, but if you are interested to read the Catholic viewpoint on this go here: The Galileo Controversy
It is of course safe to rely on the Gospels written by the actual Apostles (not all of the writers were Apostles, some were writing in their names), because it is God-breathe and it is useful for teaching, for refutation and correction (2 Tim 3:16). But to come to the fullness of the Truth, it is also necessary to hear the good news from them (James 1:19), into whose ears the Lord spoke to and commanded to preach.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 4:12:20 AM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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Some has said that the Catholic Church has changed Her teaching on salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is false, the teaching has not changed at all. It is still that salvation can only come through Christ, which is through His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church.
How others outside come to be saved through the Catholic Church is a mystery of God, the Catholic Church makes no firm judgement on their fate. God is not bound by any rules and could therefore grant baptism to those who died that, for some reason, did not have the opportunity to know that He is the Way to the Father.
The last judgement scene in Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of the judgement of “the nations” on the basis of works of charity; belief in Jesus Christ is not mentioned. Romans 2:12-16 says that the “gentiles without the law” will be judged according to God’s law “written in their hearts” or “conscience”.
The Second Vatican Council, to which some has said changed the teaching, actually says:
quote:
… though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the church (cf 1 Cor 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. Hence, missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity”.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 5:01:08 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Not so. In fact, the church began at Pentecost as a result of the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and the Apostles which makes the church posteria to the Gospel.
Again Kelman this is illogical and unsustainable. Unless you say that everything the apostles wrote, said and did after pentacost is not part of the "gospel" message. Our point is that the church came before the BIBLE, your rule of faith right!? You are essentially saying the Church started after Christ preached--duh. And it was transmitted orally for many years. So you have no point essentially and you can't deny the point that the bible is a product of the Church.
Otis
And again, it is neither "illogical and unsustainable". It is simply your inability to recognize the natural progression. The written Gospels are nothing but the message itself consigned to writing by two apostles and by two disciples of the apostles
There is no question the Gospel came first and the church is the result of it. Without the Gospel there would be no church. The Gospels, therefore, are prior to the church; and, in fact, they have created the church. They are the formal cause of the church, Jesus being its efficient cause.
The writing of Scripture was fully accomplished about 90AD and RC did not emerge until centuries later. So obviously, it had nothing to do with the writing of Scripture. As for its compilation, it is as Eusebius wrote - the books were already widely read and accepted well before 340.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 5:05:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3693
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
If you consider, Catholics, Orthodox, some Anglicans and a few other denominations all pray to the saints, that's roughly 3/4 of the worlds Christians. This is not a new idea nor one shared by only a few, it has been a longstanding accepted practice within Christianity. So I'm curious, to why those who don't pray to the saints -
Why are you so bothered that some Christians do?
Why do you think this practice went unchallenged for 1600 years or so?
Why? Because it is a practice which is an abomination before God. Only God is worthy of worship and prayer is a form of worship. One need only read some of RC's Marian prayers to see worship there.
It makes little difference how "many" or for how long people commit an unscriptural practice. It remains what it is an abomination before God and an extremely dangerous practice to become involved in.
And, btw, it did not go "unchallenged" for 1600 years. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lactantius, Athanasius and Origen all spoke against the invocation of the saints or the making of idols. In fact, it became prevalent because the people who had converted from heathenism all along worshipped deified humans so they readily lapsed into the worship of martrys.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 5:09:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
Some has said that the Catholic Church has changed Her teaching on salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is false, the teaching has not changed at all. Actually, what is false is the above statement. What is true are the following declarations.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all can be saved." Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 A. D.
"The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, "
"No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441 A.D.
"We declare, say, and define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." ( Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302 A.D.
And, now one need not believe that Jesus Christ is even God to enjoy eternal salvation - with this "prophet".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 5:11:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3693
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
It's called the printing press. These people finally gained access to God's Word, and were education and literacy was on the rise, and people started thinking for themselves
Don't you mean the inspired printing press? Because you seem to be saying that even though the bible had been around for a long time, the printing press had to be invented in order for people to finally apply the protestant rule of faith, sola scriptura??
Of course I'll grant you that prior to the printing press there was no thinking taking place... 
Otis
Yep, that was the miracle of the inspired printing press which refused to print anything other than King James Bibles.....
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 6:43:13 AM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
How could an average church goer rely solely on Scripture when there wasn't any available for them to own? They were never supposed to, because the vast majority are ill equipped to deal with its contents, as amply evidenced daily on these very forum pages.
Jesus deposited the definition and instruction of faith in the Apostles, not every Tom, Dick and Harry that crossed His path. The thousands that heard the Sermon on the mount were not automatically deputized as authoritative teachers - if you recall, the way the tale is told, the twelve were the ones authorized - at Pentecost - given the Holy Spirit and charged with the mission of "Church"; to spread the Good News to everyone, everywhere.
The story is laid out this way for a reason - not everyone gets to be an Apostle and possess Apostolic Authority.
That's why Jesus authorized and instituted "Church". The idea that any ol' soul can sit down with a translation of Scriptures and have a go at discernment is a 16th century invention of people with less-than-pristine agendas, in my humble opinion.
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 10:05:37 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1016
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Jesus deposited the definition and instruction of faith in the Apostles, not every Tom, Dick and Harry that crossed His path. The thousands that heard the Sermon on the mount were not automatically deputized as authoritative teachers - if you recall, the way the tale is told, the twelve were...
... so boneheaded that in only a few hours they completely forgot the entirety of the lessons taught during that sermon and lost anything resembling the faith that one would assume an Apostle would have...
OOPS... was I not supposed to bring that up??/
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 1:56:09 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
How could an average church goer rely solely on Scripture when there wasn't any available for them to own? That's what I'm saying.
Well thats my point kind of. See Catholic's believe that Jesus left in place a rule of faith or "a way" that is like Him, unchanging and timeless and works now like it did then. You state correctly that the average Church goer couldn't read and didn't have a bible on their table. So the way we see it, the protestant rule of sola scriptura couldn't even be used until some time after the invention of the printing press. That sure doesn't seem to make much sense. It's like saying that Jesus didn't really want the average Joe to be good sola scriptura Christians until 1500 years later and someone invented the printing press.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 6:55:57 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1320
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
Well thats my point kind of. See Catholic's believe that Jesus left in place a rule of faith or "a way" that is like Him, unchanging and timeless and works now like it did then. You state correctly that the average Church goer couldn't read and didn't have a bible on their table. So the way we see it, the protestant rule of sola scriptura couldn't even be used until some time after the invention of the printing press. That sure doesn't seem to make much sense. It's like saying that Jesus didn't really want the average Joe to be good sola scriptura Christians until 1500 years later and someone invented the printing press.
Well, it wouldn't have been necessary if centuries of Catholic leaders had not perverted Jesus's message for their own political, financial, and power-hungry ends.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 7:19:02 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Ezra what do the Jews need the Pope for?
Peter:
The Jews do not need the Pope. Benedict needs to conciliate the Jews (for his own reasons). See below.
quote:
In February 2008, Pope Benedict XVI made the decision to reformulate the Catholic Church’s traditional Good Friday prayers. The Latin prayers for Good Friday ask Catholics to “pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also make acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ,” and ask God not to “refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness." The new text will drop all references to the “darkness” and “blindness” of the Jews.
The Pope had issed a “Motu Propio” edict permitting the use of this version of the prayer from the 1962 Latin Tridentine missal in July 2007. But after protests from leaders in the Jewish community, the Pope drafted a new version to be used in time for the Holy Week celebrations in March 2008.
quote:
why is the Pope gathering, "with Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and representatives of other religions,"
---for peace---What kind of peace!
The false peace of the Antichrist. When the Antichrist appears on this earth, he will compel all men to follow one religion -- the worship of the Antichrist -- while he maitains a false peace for a limited period. We don't know how the RCC will fit into this, but that it will somehow is revealed in Scripture.
Ezra how can this be...Is this what the Apostle Paul talked when the Holy Spirit gave him to write
1 Corinthians 10:16-22.
What is the Pope doing "with Buddhists and Hindus" in relations to
1 Corinthians 10:16-22?
1 Corinthians 10:16-22
Warning Against Idolatry
16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/3/2008 8:35:30 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 7:26:19 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1320
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
Part 1:
I have always maintained the Church is not a building but the body of believers, the Mystical Body of Christ on earth. I am with you that it is those who believe on Jesus, regardless of color, language, style of worship, denomination, organization, or anything else. But the reality of the present situation tells us that there is no unity among all people who call themselves Christian. The challenge for each of us is to determine in which Church, since there are so many now, the true teaching of Christ is preserved, simply because there can only be one truth. This single Truth that Christ handed down to His Apostles unadulterated for posterity has got to be somewhere.
There is unity in our reliance on and devotion to Jesus Christ.
I don't think the Truth really cares about things like whether or not you use drums in your worship. I personally don't think that the Truth has anything to do with how many elders you have or who they are or your organizational structure. That tends to be the main things that are different among Protestant churches.
quote:
I admit that there is a possibility of a heretic succeeding the Chair of Peter that the Pope occupies. Honorius 1 was one of them. You could also include Liberius, where he supposedly gave in to the Arian heresy that rejected the term homoousios and condemn Athanasius for defending it. Then, there was the issue of Western Schism in the 15th century and the controversy of three popes.
Although today, with all the safeguards in place after the lessons of history, there is still a possibility of a heretic becoming pope, simply because we will never know what is in their hearts.
But in all cases in the past, with Liberious, Honorius 1 and the three popes saga, not one teaching of the Universal Church has been tainted. Nothing has been offered for universal belief to the faithful, nothing has been taught by the popes in this regard. For us Catholics, we belief that although the guardians of God’s Truth may sin, they will not be allowed by Him to propagate falsehoods to taint that Depository of Faith. That record is still clean.
How do you know, though? How are you sure the record is clean? Teachings have changed, demonstrably. Popes have obviously been allowed to propagate falsehoods, even if on a temporary basis.
We check it against Scripture, and where the RCC diverges from Scripture, we trust the words of the Apostles themselves rather than millenia-old tradition... and therein lies the difference between an RCC and a Protestant.
As for Galileo, he asserted that primarily that Scripture did not necessarily conflict with a heliocentric view, and for that he was branded a heretic. It's really pretty simple, no matter how many "it wasn't all that bad" comments there were in the article (which, yes, I read, and you would think that such a slick PR brochure would have more pictures). In order to be a heretic, you MUST conflict with church DOCTRINE. Otherwise you can't possibly be a heretic.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 8:51:03 PM
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CropDuster
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From: Minnesota
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I'm sorry, Zhi, but you're wrong about Galileo and the effects of the Scientific Revolution. Heliocentrism's most devastating effect on Christian Man was psychological, in that it shattered his three-tiered perception and definition of existence (Heaven above, the flat Earth in the middle, and Hell below the Earth; AKA: Ptolemaic Theory), which he had derived from Biblical concepts.
The Catholic Church, secretly acknowledging the accuracy of heliocentrism and inexorable triumph of Science over a Biblical Universe, stepped up ongoing academic efforts to incorporate Platonic, philosophical concepts into its theology, specifically to make Christianity compatible with Science. The academic movement tasked to accomplish this critical feat was called Scholasticism, and St. Thomas Aquinas was its greatest champion.
Scholasticism's 'science-proof' assertion goes something like this: while scientific inquery will produce seemingly unlimited knowledge about the physical Universe, it will never penetrate the mind of God (e.g., the equivalent of the 'Divine Cosmos' in Platonic philosophy). God transcends matter, and exists and operates far beyond the reach of human endeavor.
The works of St. Thomas Aquinas constitute the official theology of the Catholic Church.
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"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 9:06:16 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3693
Status: offline
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The story is laid out this way for a reason - not everyone gets to be an Apostle Yep, that's very true...only the Twelve get to be Apostles. That's how the Lord set it up though there are some here who would disagree with Him.
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They were never supposed to, because the vast majority are ill equipped to deal with its contents, as amply evidenced daily on these very forum pages. Yikes, even the words of the "first pope" get dissed...what a numbskull he must have been to have declared the following when all the "other popes" would eventually disagree with him.
"And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Just in case some are not aware of what "shall prophesy" means, it means to declare the Word of God.
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The idea that any ol' soul can sit down with a translation of Scriptures and have a go at discernment is a 16th century invention of people with less-than-pristine agendas, in my humble opinion. LOL....too many dissed here to elaborate.
But, at least, we do know the "real" agenda of the great Reformers. And, that was to bring the church back to its apostolic roots by way of Scripture since by that time Scripture had been pretty much cast to the wayside. Sadly, it remains there to this day by those who did the casting away.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/3/2008 10:59:06 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2594
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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The idea that any ol' soul can sit down with a translation of Scriptures and have a go at discernment is a 16th century invention of people with less-than-pristine agendas, in my humble opinion. LOL....too many dissed here to elaborate.
But, at least, we do know the "real" agenda of the great Reformers. And, that was to bring the church back to its apostolic roots by way of Scripture since by that time Scripture had been pretty much cast to the wayside. Sadly, it remains there to this day by those who did the casting away.
Unfortunately, many ignore the words of Pope Jesus.
Jesus said to ABIDE in His words. That's The Bible !
Jesus doesn't say we require a translator, interpreter,
or teacher. Jesus says The Holy Spirit will teach us.
The same Holy Spirit that teaches the pope,
is the very same Holy Spirit that instructs us.
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Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw | | |
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