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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/5/2008 11:57:04 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
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Dearest Heavendweller,
Perhaps you should "lighten up."
I added smileys! 
Get a good night's sleep.
Pax et bonum,
gatolover
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 12:35:20 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
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BTW, Heavendweller,
Do you believe in "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" as stated in the Creed?
Not sure what you found so offensive in my post to Zhi, but I do not like being lumped into a virtual nudge with Papa from someone with no authority to do so!
You really shouldn't expect to come here without taking a few answers along the way...FYI.
Pax et bonum,
gatolover
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 1:45:30 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
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Hey Papa,
[Isn't it anti-biblical to call any man, "Papa?"] Hmmm....
quote:
I think it was in reference to the 'Pope Zhi' thing...
Whatever it was, it was undefined, inappropriate, and uncalled for, IMHO.
quote:
However, I'd have to do some white smoke, cause her doctrine is more sound than that of many, many popes...
And grandstanding is the norm in this thread, so go for it, Papa. Planning to join the EOC, are you? 
Good night.
gatolover
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 2:46:58 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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Naw... My kids call me that all the time. But "Holy Father"... Yeah, there's only one of those, and He doesn't live in the Vatican...
I think I got her in a bad mood, and she spanked you at the same time as me... Sorry... I'll take the blame for that one!
Grandstanding? No, I don't think that's the norm here. Biblical truth vs. anti-scriptural practices is the norm here...
and,
No, I would not be joining the EOC. Other than the whole 'pope' thing, I don't think they are fundamentally too different from RCC. If it's in reference to the white smoke thing, I seem to remember that from the election of JPII... Isn't it Black for no-go, grey for 'were still workin' on it', and white when they have the next pope voted on?
If I got that wrong, I apologize. After wasting the time to watch way back then, I discovered I had much better things to do than worry who was going to be the next figurehead for the invent-o-matic church...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 2:58:14 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
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To whom this may concern, including me,
Ephesians 6:10-20
The Whole Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
Ephesians 4:32
The New Life
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
I'm also sorry, if I have sinned against any of you, please forgive me.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/6/2008 3:11:04 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 3:25:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3368
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quote:
...it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God."
"Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory." Further evidence of contradictory RC explanations of their own doctrines.
On the inside of the cover of the New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism published in 1969, there is a prayer. After the prayer, it says the following: "An indulgence of five years. A plenary indulgence on the usual conditions, provided this prayer has been recited daily for a month." This means that by saying the prayer properly, five years is removed from a person's time in purgatory!
On the same page of the New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism, it says: "The faithful who devote 20 minutes to a half hour to teaching or studying Christian doctrine, may gain: an indulgence of three years. A plenary indulgence on the usual conditions twice a month, if the above practice is carried out at least twice a month."
So, if one prays properly he is able to lop off five years from some lucky person's purgatorial stay. Or if you're lazy and only devote 20 minutes you chop off a mere 3 years. Pity the poor guy or gal who can't get an indulgence granted for him/her. He serves his full sentence, I guess.
Further evidence for the use of indulgences to lessen time served in purgatory which actually does contradict the op's statements:
* indulgences may be applied to the souls detained in purgatory; and
* that indulgences are available for them "by way of suffrage" (per modum suffragii).
* but when there is question of applying an indulgence to one in purgatory it is only "per modum suffragii satisfactorii" and for this reason "the pope does not absolve the soul in purgatory from the punishment due his sin, but offers to God from the treasure of the Church whatever may be necessary for the cancelling of this punishment".
That an indulgence may avail for those in purgatory several conditions are required:
* The indulgence must be granted by the pope.
* There must be a sufficient reason for granting the indulgence, and this reason must be something pertaining to the glory of God and the utility of the Church, not merely the utility accruing to the souls in purgatory.
* The pious work enjoined must be as in the case of indulgences for the living.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 7:25:46 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 840
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Now the question number next – how so we know that teachings of a particular Church, like RC’s,are right ? What is the criteria, what do we use to judge that What is a measuring stick ? Catholic know it’s right , because … why ? There is a personal decision that every faithful must make - to which "version" of truth will I gravitate, or - will I create my own? Once a decision is made regarding the role of pastoral leadership and whether it is required, then it becomes a matter of working out the best leader or the best source of leadership.
As I have stated, in my case it was simply a choice to recognize that of all the versions of faith out there, there was one that represented the fullest and most accurate practice as reflected not only in Scriptural instruction, but in the pracices of the earliest followers of Christ. For me, this faith lay within the teachings, instructions and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Once I decided to be in (or remain in) communion with this body fo believers, then everything else falls into place pretty easily.
What has surprised me in my time here (I can't remember when I signed up, but it hasn't been that long) is this notion of self-deputization when it comes to the actual discernment and development of faith that seems to exist outside the Roman Catholic Church. I had no idea, or I guess I hadn't thought about it much, but my word. What makes people think that they alone are the fittest to discern their own faith, rather than assent to a known authority (whether that be a knowledgable and properly trained and prepared pastor, or whether it be the Catholic Church)? I see this as both arrogant and misguided; I have an 8 to 5 job in the secular world; I want pastoral leadership from someone else, who's 8 to 5 job is to instruct me in my faith and its practices.
Why do we need a Pope? Because darned few of us have the resources or are prepared to be our own pastoral leader. A lot of what is being discussed and proposed here makes zero sense to me - the student cannot be the teacher. The follower cannot be the leader.
Plain and simple.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/6/2008 7:32:29 AM >
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:01:34 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
Dear Otis,
I was never asked to leave RCIA. You have me mixed up with Peter.
Oops, my apologies.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:10:39 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
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quote:
Further evidence of contradictory RC explanations of their own doctrines
Not at all, because if the article is read closely there is no implication that indulgences can obtain salvation or that a person is released from purgatory.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 9:30:40 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1937
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Why do we need a Pope? Because darned few of us have the resources or are prepared to be our own pastoral leader. A lot of what is being discussed and proposed here makes zero sense to me - the student cannot be the teacher. The follower cannot be the leader.
Plain and simple.
I guess I can't speak for all Protestants. . . but I have never claimed to be able to figure everything out on my own. I have great pastors, men of God, that I follow and learn from. They have taught me and showed me many great things and have helped deepened my faith.
. . .much like your pope.
The main difference is, his word is not infallible in my life, and I will test what he says against Scripture, and not take his word as Scripture itself.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 10:35:20 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
BTW, Heavendweller,
Do you believe in "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" as stated in the Creed?
Yes, I do.
quote:
Not sure what you found so offensive in my post to Zhi, but I do not like being lumped into a virtual nudge with Papa from someone with no authority to do so!
Dear Gat, all I said was lighten up, calm down, and you have a "rough edge" to you. Yes, I can see why you don't like being lumped in with Papa. Your theologies are quite different from each other.
When you alluded to me being asked to leave RCIA, you did so in a rash and unkind manner. I think that sometimes we (myself included) can let our fingers fly before thinking what we've said.
quote:
You really shouldn't expect to come here without taking a few answers along the way...FYI.
Indeed. To be forthright, I really don't have an ax to grind with you, Gat. Whatever I may have said to offend you, I apologize.
In Christ's Love,
Heavendweller
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 10:42:07 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 11:05:01 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Dear Otis,
I was never asked to leave RCIA. You have me mixed up with Peter.
Oops, my apologies.
Otis
Your apology is accepted. And now I must make another apology to Gatolover. Gat, I mixed you up with Otis. See, that's what happens when one is on this forum past their bedtime. So here it is.....
I'm sorry for any way in which I offended you, Gatolover.
Even though I may disagree with you on needing a pope, Christ has taught me to apologize if I have wronged someone.
BTW, it isn't that I don't understand the dogma of Papal Infallibility, and why RC think they need a pope. Rather, it was through much study, prayer, and counsel with a priest that I came to realize I could not submit to the Bishop of Rome. My conscience wouldn't allow it. You may not understand that, and that's ok. But I knew that I would be insincere toward the Lord Jesus Christ and lying to myself if I became Roman Catholic. You, otoh, have been able to make the choice to submit to the Roman Pontiff. We both must answer to God for our decisions.
In Christ's Love,
Heavendweller
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 12:53:37 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 802
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I am kind of surprised that an RC would insult both me and the papacy by snarky comments about "Pope Zhi". I thought the papacy was supposed to be sacred to you. I was merely answering a question that was asked to me directly. I will not be making further comment on the baptism issue due to the fact that it's not the topic.
No, most of us do not have the resources to interpret Scripture on our own, but we don't. All Protestants have teachers available to them. We do filter their teaching, though, through what we DO know the Scripture says. We also filter their teaching through the way they live, because we DO consider the fruits of the Holy Spirit to be an important indicator of whether or not a person has the relationship they claim, and we try to avoid hypocrits who tell us to do one thing doctrinally while doing another themselves. This is what bothers me so much about the historic papacy... the fact that the actions of so many of the Popes in the past did not match the doctrines the church supposedly represented. Since a Protestant considers him or herself responsible to ensure that the leaders he or she is following are correct and consistent in their teaching (both in what they say and how they live), it is basically impossible for us to accept that apostolic succession could go through so many truly evil, corrupt, and depraved people and remain intact. When we see that the current successor has been working hard to more or less let child molesters off the hook, it merely confirms our opinion.
Kielbasa, I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience with Protestants. I have seen similar things with Catholics, though they mostly just do what they want and keep attending the church, rather than leaving because they don't get to sin how they want... I have members of my own family who claim to be Catholic and have been living in sin for over 20 years now, members of my own family who are Catholic and have gotten divorced, some of whom have gotten remarried (civilly) anyway. And yes, there are Protestant churches that don't address these things. I've seen their advertisements too, I've attended a couple, and I decided not to join those churches, because they weren't being Scriptural, to find one that is. But the elephant in the room here is that the Catholic church hasn't addressed these things either. Your own Pope was involved in reshuffling the priests who were molesting children to give them more victims and hide the molestation. Your own Pope currently will not turn them over for prosecution, for the most part they are retiring to cushy vacation spots. Sure, your Pope claims to be upset about the whole mess, but where's the proof?
So you say the differences between Protestants mean we need a Pope. I'd note that you HAVE one and you have the same problems, they're apparently just not as obvious to you. The difference is really that if I have a leader who isn't practicing what he preaches, who isn't following Scripture, then I can reject his teachings without suddenly not really being a Christian anymore.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 1:37:19 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1696
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Oh, sorry, sister,i apologize. I did figured you are almost 3 times my age based on 50 years as a protestant alone, but never thought a girl would give herself a handle like “kielbasa” if anything food related it would be cherry or hersey’s kiss or marshmallow. So you are into serious, ungirly, substantial foods, just like I am..…:)
Please explain a bit more here:
quote:
What I meant when I said that the differences among Protestants was a primary reason in my mind that a pope was necessary is this: When Jesus prayed for his disciples He asked the Father that they "may be one, as we are one." In order for Christians to be one, there needs to be a central authority to settle matters of dispute.
I agree with point Zhi just made. Many CC’s hold to different beliefs just as Pr-s do too. In which way are catholics more "one" then protestants are "one"? The only thing Pope provides is maybe doctrinal unity of the Church teaching,which doesn’t affect individual beliefs. Once it’s down to personal convictions it’s still up to a person,everybody decides for himself.
If a C thinks abortion is fine or a certain P thinks so .. what benefit is to them what their church’s stance is?
quote:
....that Protestants do not think they need anything but a copy of the Bible and the Holy Spirit as their authority (I was one, remember)--but why is the Holy Spirit not telling them all the same thing when they read Scripture? And why is He telling some "Oh, He didn't mean that!" when they read certain passages, and telling other Protestants that He most assuredly did mean it?
For the same reason catholics believe different things- personal discernment and judgement of Church teachings. I like to ask people what they believe on theological and moral issues and so far see that just as protestants vary in the area of personal religious beliefs, catholics vary just the same.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 1:42:20 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 560
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Hey Papa,
[Isn't it anti-biblical to call any man, "Papa?"] Hmmm....
Hey my Grand kids call me Pa Pa.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 6:45:32 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 840
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
...but I have never claimed to be able to figure everything out on my own...
...and I will test what he says against Scripture...
I see these two sentences as incongruent, per my example.
If the pastor is to instruct you as to the finer points of Scripture, and you are then going to test his words to you against Scriptures, then
A) either he is not teaching you anything and you have no need for a pastor, as you may already test his instruction against your own interpretation, and may discard his instruction in the event of a conflict with your own personal interpretation;
or
B) if you find a conflict, then you clearly do not possess the instruction and you must further query the teacher for additional clarification to straighten out and further refine your understanding.
The problem I stated is that I believe the Protestant model for dealing with Scriptures lie in option A) above, whereas the Catholic model is clearly B) above. The layperson assents to the authoritative teaching of the Church and subordinates or defers his/her "understanding" of Scriptures in favor of the Church's, and seeks a deeper meaning or set of instructions, in light of a perceived conflict, to resolve the errant interpretation of the faithful or student, in order to resolve the perceived conflict.
The Luther model described in A) above means that I assent to no one (which is what I believe the phrase "...Scripture is the final authority..." is really saying), and if I disagree, I may always schism and go my own way, and possibly create my own flock of like-minded schismatics.
You claim "Scripture is authoritative" and then deal with discrepancies in its interpretation with a variety of mechanisms, whereas I say "Church is authoritative" and assent to her interpretations of Scripture for me, realizing that Scriptures is but one of the tools at her disposal to formulate and shape my faith. And I believe people vote with their feet on this point- which gives you a billion Catholics and 0.075 billion Methodists, as an example.
This underlying understanding of authority is a huge gulf between Catholics and Protestants. It will have to sort itself out if Christianity is ever to all get back on the same page ever again.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/6/2008 7:00:17 PM >
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:48:25 PM
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shalada
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Joined: 5/6/2008
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It bothers me that Jesus said to call no man Father except God. What justification is there for calling the Pope father in the light of this Scripture? And I would also like to know why, if we are all priests through Jesus death and resurrection and He is our High Priest who intercedes for us - then why is confession to a priest necessary? why do Catholics pray to or go through Mary? Seems that it would be easier to go to the High Priest without all the "middle-men". Besides, it might lose something in the journey by going through so many others.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:53:27 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shalada
It bothers me that Jesus said to call no man Father except God. What justification is there for calling the Pope father in the light of this Scripture? And I would also like to know why, if we are all priests through Jesus death and resurrection and He is our High Priest who intercedes for us - then why is confession to a priest necessary? why do Catholics pray to or go through Mary? Seems that it would be easier to go to the High Priest without all the "middle-men". Besides, it might lose something in the journey by going through so many others.
Hello shalada,
1 Corinthians 4:15
15For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Isaiah 59:1
1Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
James 5:16
The Prayer of Faith
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
"The prayer of a righteous person has great power" is the pope righteous person?
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/6/2008 9:17:00 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:56:07 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
No, most of us do not have the resources to interpret Scripture on our own, but we don't. All Protestants have teachers available to them. We do filter their teaching, though, through what we DO know the Scripture says.
That really makes little sense. On the one hand you admit you really can't interpret accurately but even with that you feel obliged and empowered to reject and judge the very teachers you claim all have????
quote:
We also filter their teaching through the way they live, because we DO consider the fruits of the Holy Spirit to be an important indicator of whether or not a person has the relationship they claim, and we try to avoid hypocrits who tell us to do one thing doctrinally while doing another themselves. This is what bothers me so much about the historic papacy... the fact that the actions of so many of the Popes in the past did not match the doctrines the church supposedly represented.
So the next time Zhi makes a mistake and sins you should be evicted from your church. This concept that somehow members of "the church" must remain perfect is counter to what the bible shows. And where do you get this "so many"? What about the many good Popes? And like other human being they sin, but the amazing thing is that the doctrine of Church hasn't changed despite "all" these terrible people. The Church is much bigger than any one individual or their sins. Jesus did hire the man who would hand Him over right?
quote:
Since a Protestant considers him or herself responsible to ensure that the leaders he or she is following are correct and consistent in their teaching (both in what they say and how they live), it is basically impossible for us to accept that apostolic succession
This method is completely unbiblical unless you can show where Paul is rejected by individuals and yet Paul says "oh thats ok, you should work it out for yourself and not listen to me." And its really not impossible since many protestants have converted and some would say the best and brightest.
quote:
When we see that the current successor has been working hard to more or less let child molesters off the hook, it merely confirms our opinion.
That is of course complete poppy-cock.
quote:
But the elephant in the room here is that the Catholic church hasn't addressed these things either.
Again don't focue on individaul experiences since man is well...man. Of course I would encourage to read the lives of Catholic saints as that is one of the many reasons people experience a conversion of heart. Yes people sin, but there are numerous "success" stories of supernatural faith. There are protestant churchs that do endorse and teach sin--homosexuality, abortion ok, etc--please direct me where the Church teaches a sin is no longer a sin.
quote:
The difference is really that if I have a leader who isn't practicing what he preaches, who isn't following Scripture, then I can reject his teachings without suddenly not really being a Christian anymore.
No you have leader who you sit in judgement of based on your own confessed flawed interpritation and hence you are being "papal" and so technically you are a "Zhi-Christian" because you follow your own "teaching" on matters of faith.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 8:58:49 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
It bothers me that Jesus said to call no man Father except God. What justification is there for calling the Pope father in the light of this Scripture?
Talk to St Paul...you ever sing "father Abraham" at Sunday school? Well then when Jesus said that He must have meant it in another way than literally you can't call anyone "father" to include your dad.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 10:21:27 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Dear Heavendweller,
quote:
And now I must make another apology to Gatolover.
No apology necessary, sister.
I was a bit confused and must confess I'm not horribly disinclined to being confused with Otis....at least online.
Peace of Christ,
gatolover
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/6/2008 10:39:29 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 560
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Dear mcleod,
quote:
Hey my Grand kids call me Pa Pa.
As they should.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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