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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 10:19:28 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
Why do we need a Pope?
Somebody has to keep Pete's chair warm....
John
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 1:00:21 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 1:03:31 PM
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 6:48:52 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Please address if you have a moment - i am particularly interested in your critique as of why do you think critical appoach to authorities by Protestant bereans is bad?thanks I'd love to, but I am not certain that it is on topic, and the law has been laid at our feet here...
Perhaps if we put it in terms of comparing a Protestant Berean's authority, or what or who they recognize as authoritative, and what those signs are, and comparing that to how Catholics view the authority of the Pope in those same terms.
But - you first (just to test the waters...)
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 9:49:06 PM
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PeterD
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Hello followers of the Pope.
John 19:8-13
Jesus Delivered to Be Crucified
8When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. 9 He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?" 11Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."
12From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar’s friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar." 13 So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic Gabbatha.
verse 11..."Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above." verse 13..."he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement,"
My question is does the Pope have a judgement seat where he makes judgments from and also in verse 11 is Jesus speaking about the Pope the same way Jesus spoke to Pilate saying, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above."
Also, verse 12 "Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar"???
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/9/2008 2:38:42 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/8/2008 11:41:38 PM
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Eleazar123
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The first question I have concerning the Pope is whether or not he recognizes that only the true Sons of Aaron are the only ones authorized by God to minister before his people?
Is the Pope willing to hand over church leadership back to the Messianic Jewish Bretheren who have suffered severely at the hands of so called "Christians".
If the Pope is not willing to hand over Church leadership back to the Messianic Jewish breatheren, then we do not need him. He is a false prophet using replacement theology as a means to maintain a political power base that is not biblical.
For those who do not know what a Messianic Jew is: these are Jewish brothers and sisters who believe that Jesus Christ is their Messiah.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 2:24:35 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
The first question I have concerning the Pope is whether or not he recognizes that only the true Sons of Aaron are the only ones authorized by God to minister before his people?
Eleazar:
Rome has tried to apply the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood to Christianity. But we should always keep in mind that God abolished the Levitical priesthood the day Christ died. Instead, He established Christ as our Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. He is not only the Divine High Priest, but the Lamb of God.
Which means that the only legitimate priesthood which God recognizes on earth today is the priesthood of ALL believers. He has made us a Royal Priesthood by his grace, and the Romish system is a sham.
The pope is a usurper. Only Christ -- and Christ alone -- can be the Head of the Church.
There are no "priests and laity" in the Body of Christ. We all are a kingdom of priests, who are also children of the King, therefore royalty.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/9/2008 2:35:47 AM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 3:05:57 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
The first question I have concerning the Pope is whether or not he recognizes that only the true Sons of Aaron are the only ones authorized by God to minister before his people?
Eleazar:
Rome has tried to apply the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood to Christianity. But we should always keep in mind that God abolished the Levitical priesthood the day Christ died. Instead, He established Christ as our Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. He is not only the Divine High Priest, but the Lamb of God.
Which means that the only legitimate priesthood which God recognizes on earth today is the priesthood of ALL believers. He has made us a Royal Priesthood by his grace, and the Romish system is a sham.
The pope is a usurper. Only Christ -- and Christ alone -- can be the Head of the Church.
There are no "priests and laity" in the Body of Christ. We all are a kingdom of priests, who are also children of the King, therefore royalty.
I've always found it odd that RC would attempt to justify their priesthood based on the OT Levitical priesthood. Most of the OT is types and shadows which were fulfilled with the coming of Christ who was both the High Priest and the Sacrifice.
RC totally ignored the fact Scripture is clear on this principle in order to establish their own priesthood and papacy - a result of that priesthood.
Historically, the further in time from the Apostles the more pronounced the novelty in doctrine has become. They allowed their traditions and church practicese to drive a wedge between their doctrines and that of the Apostles.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 6:22:42 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
The pope is a usurper. Only Christ -- and Christ alone -- can be the Head of the Church. Fine then, let's let Larry King interview Jesus on his show about Christianity in the 21st century...
Until that happens, we need a "spokesman", an "institutional voice", a "chief deputy" - i. e. a vicar - to sit in that chair across Larry King and discuss stem cell research, or to shame the US about their treatment of prisoners of war - in the name of Jesus, for the causes of Christianity. Or shame countries who regularly discard basic human rights.
That man for Catholics is the Pope. There are those who claim that spot for Protestants, as well.
Does Reverend Al Sharpton speak for you? How about Kenneth Copeland? Who is it that does voice your thoughts about stem cell research on a national stage, to national leaders, where maybe something can be done about issues we are facing?
Who in your Church can get a personal audience with Vladimir Putin or George W. Bush?
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 6:25:52 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Somebody has to keep Pete's chair warm.... This is actually one of the better answers I have seen in this thread...
Somebody does have to continue to occupy the seat of Peter. We can argue about what that seat does, what it is, what its role should be, and what authoirty it has.
But that chair has been kept warm continuously for 2,000 years now.
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 10:20:12 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
RE: Why do we need a Pope?
Because someone has to get an herb rub down in Mexico City to ward of evil spirits...
John
PS. This is in regards to the previous pope...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 5/9/2008 10:26:48 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 12:55:06 PM
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PeterD
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Matthew 19:23-30
The Rich Young Man
23And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?" 28Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
for my name’s sake,
28Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Look, the Lord Jesus Christ said to them including Peter, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do the Popes claim the twelve tribes of Israel as they claim Peter?
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 5/9/2008 1:03:56 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 3:41:54 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
I'd love to, but I am not certain that it is on topic, and the law has been laid at our feet here... Considering the Pope is the voice of Authority of the Catholic Church I am sure we will be allowed to debate the questions related to CC authority, how the decisions are formed and made and who the Pope (and all CC which he represents) is accountable to.
Pr. view of auth. figures should advance the debate as well,and I hope, be also OK. I see that you want to compare both camps’ views on authority.
quote:
Perhaps if we put it in terms of comparing a Protestant Berean's authority, or what or who they recognize as authoritative, and what those signs are, and comparing that to how Catholics view the authority of the Pope in those same terms. What is considered authority for P-s was, I think, recently explained by more able people then me , like Zhi, K-man, Papa and others. I addressed in the post HERE too. We obey teachers but we are vigilant and critical of theol. positions,not to be lured away by wolves in sheep’s clothing.
I see that approach as superior to trusting that group of men in various times over the course of history designed the perfect godly view of how church hasot function, that view is represented and sanctioned by Pope and is unfallible.
I understand and appreciate your view of CC approach to authority as:
quote:
B)DOG: if you find a conflict, then you clearly do not possess the instruction and you must further query the teacher for additional clarification to straighten out and further refine your understanding.
But Peter did try that and it didn’t work, he got kicked out of classes, I asked him to describe it. I see the RCIA’s point –to maintain discipline and put a limit on inquiring minds not to disrupt the classes. But thats the dead end for potential convert..
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/9/2008 9:41:17 PM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Somebody has to keep Pete's chair warm.... This is actually one of the better answers I have seen in this thread...
Somebody does have to continue to occupy the seat of Peter. We can argue about what that seat does, what it is, what its role should be, and what authoirty it has.
But that chair has been kept warm continuously for 2,000 years now.
Did it get extra warm when it was the place where the 'bump-n-grind' with the harlots and little boys happened a while back?
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/9/2008 9:49:20 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/10/2008 3:07:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3139
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quote:
quote:
The pope is a usurper. Only Christ -- and Christ alone -- can be the Head of the Church. Fine then, let's let Larry King interview Jesus on his show about Christianity in the 21st century...
Until that happens, we need a "spokesman", an "institutional voice", a "chief deputy" - i. e. a vicar - to sit in that chair across Larry King and discuss stem cell research, or to shame the US about their treatment of prisoners of war - in the name of Jesus, for the causes of Christianity. Or shame countries who regularly discard basic human rights.
That man for Catholics is the Pope. There are those who claim that spot for Protestants, as well.
Does Reverend Al Sharpton speak for you? How about Kenneth Copeland? Who is it that does voice your thoughts about stem cell research on a national stage, to national leaders, where maybe something can be done about issues we are facing?
Who in your Church can get a personal audience with Vladimir Putin or George W. Bush?
You act like these are "good" things for a true Christian to be involved in. They're not. No where are we told to get "political". God sent Peter and the other Apostles to preach the Gospel not to talk to Putin or Bush about what amounts to politics within a government. Besides, the pope is often on the "wrong" side of issues so even his politics should be taken with a grain of salt.
Hopefully, I'm just being gullible; but, the pope really wasn't on King's show, was he? It's gross even when serious politicians go on what amounts to "entertainment" shows. Who was King's next guest...Britney Spears?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/10/2008 3:42:07 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
We obey teachers but we are vigilant and critical of theol. positions,not to be lured away by wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Which is precisely the instructions and admonitions given in Scripture. The Bible hasn't the slightest intimation of an "universal infallible authority". That is simply a man-made tradtion established by RC and has nothing to do with God and His Scripture.
RC looks to Prot. "disunity"; and while certainly true, the heresy resulting from this disunity pales in comparison to that of RC.
Just as in any great democracy we must take the good with the bad. We have "free speach"; but, as a result of this great freedom we must also be exposed to disgusting, deplorable speech. Who among us would prefer to abolish free speech to rid ourselves of the "bad"?
We can liken the Reformation to free speech, a magnificent blessing from God. Still a great blessing even if abused by some.
quote:
quote:
B)DOG: if you find a conflict, then you clearly do not possess the instruction and you must further query the teacher for additional clarification to straighten out and further refine your understanding.
But Peter did try that and it didn’t work, he got kicked out of classes, Pared down to its essentials without all the attending gobbledygook, all the above means is: "who do you believe - me? Or, what your own eyes tell you?"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/10/2008 10:31:09 PM
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Papa-san
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(Peter,
The second link is broken.)
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/10/2008 11:13:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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RE: Why do we need a Pope?quote:
RE: Why do we need a Pope?
Somebody has to sign the checks....
John
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 7:44:39 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
We obey teachers but we are vigilant and critical of theol. positions A friend of mine told me this story once: He was living in Mexico City and one of his objectives for being there was to become fluent in Spanish (at least the Mexican variety of it...) He had a roommate who was interested in learning English, so they agreed to help each other.
So one day - they are working with each other and going over words for various things like "head", "face", "nose", etc. My friend points to his chin and says "knee". His roommate pointed to his own chin and said "knee". This went on for a few repetitions before my friend confessed and explained that he had just been messing around, and that "knee" was actually "chin".
The point is that if we truly don't know something and we truly wish to learn, we are at the mercy of the teacher to provide "fact" for us and are in a very poor position (at the time) to challenge that authority. Maybe down the road we can question what we have learned, but not at the time of the lesson. We have to take the instruction, learn and use it, until corrected down the road. If we accept correction, it is only because after scrutiny, we have determined the "new" teacher to be more authoritative than the old.
In my example, if the roommate had gone on referring to his chin as his knee, he would have been corrected by some other English speaker, and would have had to weigh the authority of that instruction, versus the one had originally received. The authority would have been weighed by a scrutiny or query - is the corrector an English speaker, does the corrector have an agenda or motive to mis-inform, etc.? Based on this scrutiny, a decision would have to be made regarding the authority of the instruction, and the source from which it came.
In your post, you talk about receiving instruction, which is then "checked". It begs the question - are you learning anything new? (how do you check that?), or are you learning different versions or twists of the old subject, and now have to perform the critical analysis of your previous instructors?
Agenda becomes important. Many here claim that Catholics are being duped by some "power play" or some other agenda. To which I say - what do you mean? What "power" is being exercised over me? I seek assistance with the development of my faith; and my Priest provides that. I seek fellowship and congregation with other Christians to worship God; the Parish provides that. I seek an institution to voice my personal concerns about what goes on in the world and the societal values present, with the authority to get results and to gain an audience on the world stage with heads of state; my Church accomplishes that. I seek a vehicle and means so that the blessings with which I have been provided by God can be shared with others less fortunate; my Church does that for me.
I contrast that to the rich pastor of the non-denom evangelical Church down the street, who regularly fleeces his flock so that he may buy a bigger lake house, or a bigger boat, or another Swiss gold watch, or a Porsche for his 18 year old son - all 100% tax-free. This pastor is highly motivated to continue to evolve his message in order to attempt to attract more and newer congregants who may continue to fill the coffers. This becomes a marketing issue - how do I grab people from other Churches in the area to fill my seats? Maybe I set up a billboard or to, or maybe I construct a huge youth center with wall-to-wall X-Box 360's, so that we can all praise God by playing video games until we drop, or maybe a do a "Harley Davidson give-away" to attract the baby-boomers...
So there is no absolute truth here, only a relative one that tends to reflect popularity and fashion, for the purposes of trying to maximize the number of seats filled. Worship has now become a "show" or a "production", whose purpose is to entertain the congregation, and not entertain God, as worship is supposed to do.
When I simply compare the two agendas at work - no thanks, I'll stick with the Pope. From there - the authority of the message follows...I am not being duped by some pastor with his hand in my wallet, I am being instructed by people who I perceive have their eyes on a greater prize (maybe even the greatest prize) - a right-relationship with God, through Jesus, and strengthened by the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments. If I want to keep my hand on my wallet, I may do so.
Go ahead ... call me naive ...
quote:
I see that approach as superior to trusting that group of men in various times over the course of history designed the perfect godly view of how church hasot function, that view is represented and sanctioned by Pope and is unfallible.
I don't see it as trusting an 80 year old man (or a group of them), but a 2,000 year old institution...I see the work of the Holy Spirit in preserving this institution for us when so many others have come and gone. I see that the Holy Spirit could have guided Luther in giving people an alternative to what he perceived were short-comings and compromises of the institution, but that lacking that guidance, there were flaws and defects created in the administration of this alternative (set aside the theology for a second...) that has led to the successive division and schism of this alternative into the thousands of variants and versions of faith seen today. I believe that if the Holy Spirit had been guiding Luther, the post "Theses" Church would have an entriely different, unified look to it, and could truly be an authority to lay claim on Apostolic faith the way the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do.
As it is - it is the mess that it is. How do we attribute that creation to the work and influence of the Holy Spirit?
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/11/2008 8:05:27 AM >
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 8:13:18 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 739
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quote:
But the document said that they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope – “a defect”, or a “wound” that harmed them." Reading between the lines - while the Pope recognizes the fullness of faith offered and instructed in the Orthodox Church, the concern is that buried within lies the same schismatic mechanism that has hurt the post-Reformation Churches, because of the lack of acknowledgment of one singular final authority. This "defect" or "wound" needs to be healed before the mechanism of schism can go to work on this institution. I believe that the Orthodox position on this is that Church was always meant to be administered by council - i. e. twelve Apostles. To which the Catholics then say "yes, but someone has to chair that meeting and break any ties..".
So the discussions regarding administration continue (there is also that sticky "filioque" issue...)
There are many Catholics such as myself, that hope to see a conciliation between Orthodox Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church in the next 50 years. There may be a Pope coming down the road that can finally get this issue figured out and put it to rest to the satisfaction of the Orthodox Church.
This would put the largest, unfied communion of Christian faithful under one Church at 1.25 billion souls - almost enough to compete with Islam...
_____________________________
John 14 - "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves...whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 12:29:13 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 408
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Pope Benedict XVI of Rome said, "that Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But the document said that they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope – “a defect”, or a “wound” that harmed them."
http://www.thevoiceoforthodoxy.com/current/editorials/Will_The_True_Church_Stand_up.html
http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/the-moscow-patriarchate-does-not-share-the-optimism-of-cardinal-kasper-concerning-a-breakthrough-in-orthodox-catholic-relations/
Peter,
Thanks for the links. I especially liked the first one. At least some Orthodox "get it." They're not buying the lure to submit to the Roman Pontiff. To submit would mean to change many of their beliefs. Beliefs which if they layed aside, would mean changing the Orthodox faith entirely.
When many Christians observe the Orthodox faith from the outside looking in, without studying the faith and worshipping with Orthodox believers, it may appear that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are very much alike. However, such is not the case at all.
The teaching model and standard whereby Eastern Orthodoxy interprets Scripture and understands salvation is taught from a completely different perspective. Thus, even the manner in which Orthodox express their faith in worship, practice and daily living is quite different than Roman Catholicism.
Heavendweller
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 5/11/2008 1:44:36 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 408
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
In your post, you talk about receiving instruction, which is then "checked". It begs the question - are you learning anything new? (how do you check that?), or are you learning different versions or twists of the old subject, and now have to perform the critical analysis of your previous instructors?
DH, I understand your point here. As I have stated on the "unity" thread, how can Scripture (the Bible alone) be the standard the church uses as a sole guide and yet have the confusion that exists? When this rubric is put into practice, we can observe that many who claim to have the leading of the Holy Spirit in interpreting Scripture, using it as their sole guide, disagree with others who make the same claim.
While I recognize the problem here, I do not believe that having a pope who claims supremacy is the solution. The history of the RCC and the lack of unity among RC shows that the pope has not solved the problem of disunity.
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Agenda becomes important. Many here claim that Catholics are being duped by some "power play" or some other agenda. To which I say - what do you mean? What "power" is being exercised over me? I seek assistance with the development of my faith; and my Priest provides that.
I have frequented enough Roman Catholic blogs and forums to discover that seeking assistance from one's priest, or even from one's bishop often does not solve the problem of disunity within the RCC. There are many RC who complain that their priests are liberal, going against the Magesterium, not following the rubrics of the Mass, teaching what is contrary to the Catechism. And nothing is done about it. So the Roman Catholic will go to another parish to worship where a priest is considered to be submitting to the Magesterium and the doctrine of the RCC. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't.
I've heard of many bad experiences with RCIA, where liberal nuns, or liberal priests, or poorly educated laity are teaching contrary to the Catechism. When confronted, these "teachers" explain away what they are doing by saying that they have the freedom to disagree with the Catechism, or they disagree with certain teachings of the RCC, or they want to bring about change within the RCC. So where is the unity?
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I contrast that to the rich pastor of the non-denom evangelical Church down the street, who regularly fleeces his flock so that he may buy a bigger lake house, or a bigger boat, or another Swiss gold watch, or a Porsche for his 18 year old son - all 100% tax-free. This pastor is highly motivated to continue to evolve his message in order to attempt to attract more and newer congregants who may continue to fill the coffers. This becomes a marketing issue - how do I grab people from other Churches in the area to fill my seats? Maybe I set up a billboard or to, or maybe I construct a huge youth center with wall-to-wall X-Box 360's, so that we can all praise God by playing video games until we drop, or maybe a do a "Harley Davidson give-away" to attract the baby-boomers...
Your contrast DH, is irrelevant to many who are on this forum. They would perceive this to be a "strawman" since they would not condone such behavior from a pastor.
But I have something to ask you. How do you look at all of those Roman Catholics who submitted to the authority of wicked popes, who claimed that Christ was their guide and was directing them to propagate the Crusades? Or what about the laity who trusted the pope and Magesterium when they were being misled about indulgences and Purgatory? There have been many times when the Supreme Pontiff, the Bishop of Rome, the Vicar of Christ, has misled the flock. These popes by their actions and declarations were blind guides, wolves in sheep's clothing. Yet all faithful Roman Catholics were required to submit to the Roman Pontiff, no matter how wicked he might have been. It isn't as though these bad popes said, "You needn't submit to me because I'm so wicked. Just follow the teachings of the Church and not my example since I am living in opposition to God's will." Is there something wrong with this picture?
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When I simply compare the two agendas at work - no thanks, I'll stick with the Pope. From there - the authority of the message follows...I am not being duped by some pastor with his hand in my wallet, I am being instructed by people who I perceive have their eyes on a greater prize (maybe even the greatest prize) - a right-relationship with God, through Jesus, and strengthened by the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments. If I want to keep my hand on my wallet, I may do so.
DH, what would you tell the folks out in California who have priests and bishops who have seriously gone off the deep end. You know, the parishes that allow gay people to run their Bingo games while they're dressed up in their "gay garb." Or the parish that serves Communion to cross-dressers and gays who openly defy the Church's teachings. Or the bishopwho blesses the laity who go to "gay" events in San Francisco? Or the priests and bishops that have harbored pedophile priests and have tried to hide documents that expose their wrongful behavior? Or what about the bishop that was shuffled off to Rome and provided a nice position with comfy lodging all under the auspices of the Pope of Rome himself.
Why hasn't the pope done anything about the renegade priests and bishops that are within many Catholic parishes across the country? Why doesn't the pope do anything about the liberal priests that are teaching contrary to Catholic doctrine within Catholic universities all across the nation. You know, universities like Boston college which have priests and nuns who openly oppose the Church on many issues.
Where I ask is this unity of which you speak? And how is the office of the Pope effective in solving this problem?
And then of course there's the chaos that ensued after Vatican II. This is admitted and well documented and understood by MANY Roman Catholics. Where was the pope when the "smoke of Satan" was running rampant with the RCC. A quote said to describe the condition of the RCC by none other than Pope Paul VI.
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...I see the work of the Holy Spirit in preserving this institution for us when so many others have come and gone.
So the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church to kill Jews, Muslims and Orthodox? The Hol | | |
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