|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 11:14:52 PM
|
|
|
superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
|
Seems like you know what you're talking about. There is a eastern rite church near me, I'll have to check into it.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 11:37:42 PM
|
|
|
jgarden
Posts: 62
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
The Pope is held in high esteem and is considered by some as the representation of Christ on earth.
Discuss the differences in this doctrine.
The Pope is the only Christian leader who can command attention and respect on the international stage. Neither Protestants nor the Orthodox Churches have an equivalent spokesman with the same prestige. A good Pope like John Paul can be an instrument for good throughout the world.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/22/2005 11:42:38 PM
|
|
|
superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
The Pope is held in high esteem and is considered by some as the representation of Christ on earth.
Discuss the differences in this doctrine.
The Pope is the only Christian leader who can command attention and respect on the international stage. Neither Protestants nor the Orthodox Churches have an equivalent spokesman with the same prestige. A good Pope like John Paul can be an instrument for good throughout the world.
That is certainly true. I do admire all the last one did. I once heard someone say "Ihate organized religion, and that's why I joined the Orthodox Church" 
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 3:30:17 AM
|
|
|
divinemercy
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
lurker says :
quote:
I don't really know much history about the catholic church, but I suppose that either the first popes were really "popes", but not the arrogant, boasting, and heretic popes we have today,
quote:
The idea of a pope is on its own boasting, arrogant, "lusty" for power, and generally satanic, and like the idea of the pope, so is any kind of heretic ideas. satanic.
The Popes are not satanic nor heretic Lurker!
I do forgive you for your untame tongue.
*confused look*
Where did I say that??
That's not my post!
Viva il Papa!
My sincere apologies lurker for my attributing those statements to you.
It was from Lord Storms post #172.
I will be more careful, I am sorry lurker. I edited my original post.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 5:00:59 AM
|
|
|
sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
The Pope is held in high esteem and is considered by some as the representation of Christ on earth.
Discuss the differences in this doctrine.
The Pope is the only Christian leader who can command attention and respect on the international stage. Neither Protestants nor the Orthodox Churches have an equivalent spokesman with the same prestige. A good Pope like John Paul can be an instrument for good throughout the world.
That is certainly true. I do admire all the last one did. I once heard someone say "Ihate organized religion, and that's why I joined the Orthodox Church"
Dear Superdave,
That's a take-off of a quote by Will Rogers. "I'm not a member of any organized religion. . . I'm a Baptist."
On the Feast of St. George
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
< Message edited by sdaw -- 4/24/2005 12:56:56 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 7:07:21 AM
|
|
|
superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
|
quote:
Dear Superdave,
That's a take-off of a quote by Will Rogers. "I'm not a member of any organized religion. . . I'm a Baptist."
The Orthodox Church was here way before Will Rogers so it's my opinion that we said it first  . On the other hand, I was Baptist for a very long time so can see why he felt that way.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 8:34:45 AM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: superdave
Seems like you know what you're talking about. There is a eastern rite church near me, I'll have to check into it.
Unworthyseraphim's absence of late was lamented earlier. I concur. Maybe he'll be back after Holy Week next week. Some people give up arguing on these forums for Lent. Lord have mercy if I should have. However, he once wrote that it is considered heresy for Orthodox to take communion at a Catholic Church, even Eastern Rite. And Catholics are not supposed to take communion at an Orthodox Church though they allow the opposite.
There was a Byzantine Catholic going through the catechumenate with my family and me who was still taking communion at his old church so that he wouldn't be without before he was received by the Orthodox Church. When our priest heard that he was doing this, he took him aside and told him not to do that anymore. That while a catechumen, he was receiving all he needed.
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 9:22:26 AM
|
|
|
superdave
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Atlanta, Georgia!
Status: offline
|
quote:
Unworthyseraphim's absence of late was lamented earlier. I concur. Maybe he'll be back after Holy Week next week. Some people give up arguing on these forums for Lent. Lord have mercy if I should have. However, he once wrote that it is considered heresy for Orthodox to take communion at a Catholic Church, even Eastern Rite. And Catholics are not supposed to take communion at an Orthodox Church though they allow the opposite.
That's correct as far as I know. Orthodox can not take communion with any other group other than those in full communion with us. You're really not even supposed to pray with the heterodox or attend their services.
_____________________________
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 3:41:56 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Hello Superdave,
You asked previously what I was referring to regarding Eastern appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle disputes. They are numerous and include the Western quashing of Arianism in the East, the appeal by St. Ignatius when he was unjustly deposed of his bishopric by Photius, and there are many others that I, unfortunately, do not have the time to address right now. I do, however, have a link to an article in the online Catholic Encyclopedia that you may be interested in reading.
I sure hope this works...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm
I look forward to further discussion with you and Andrea. Happy Pasch to all my EOC friends. Good to know Unworthy may be back soon.
Pax Christi,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 5:19:25 PM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Hello Superdave,
You asked previously what I was referring to regarding Eastern appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle disputes. They are numerous and include the Western quashing of Arianism in the East, the appeal by St. Ignatius when he was unjustly deposed of his bishopric by Photius, and there are many others that I, unfortunately, do not have the time to address right now. I do, however, have a link to an article in the online Catholic Encyclopedia that you may be interested in reading.
I sure hope this works...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm
I look forward to further discussion with you and Andrea. Happy Pasch to all my EOC friends. Good to know Unworthy may be back soon.
Pax Christi,
Michael
Dear Michael,
Arius was from Antioch, but he was defeated by the Synod of Alexandria (Egypt) and the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, championed by Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria. I looked this up just now because another Catholic said recently that Rome defeated Arianism, which was the first I had heard of that.
Thanks for the Pascha wishes. We just attended Lazarus Saturday services. I had not realized this resurrection miracle occured right before Palm Sunday which we will celebrate tomorrow.
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 5:50:06 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear Andrea,
quote:
Arius was from Antioch, but he was defeated by the Synod of Alexandria (Egypt) and the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, championed by Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria. I looked this up just now because another Catholic said recently that Rome defeated Arianism, which was the first I had heard of that.
Here's a link with some historical input...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm
Thanks for the Pascha wishes. We just attended Lazarus Saturday services. I had not realized this resurrection miracle occured right before Palm Sunday which we will celebrate tomorrow.
Indeed! He is Risen! How quickly some turned from experiencing such a profound miracle to unbelief. A lesson for us all.
Blessed Orthodox Holy Week [not sure what you EOC call Holy Week],
Michael
< Message edited by onelordofall -- 4/23/2005 5:58:42 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 7:47:01 PM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Dear Andrea,
Here's a link with some historical input...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm
Blessed Orthodox Holy Week [not sure what you EOC call Holy Week],
Michael
Michael, I just skimmed after the 3rd sentence in your link with it's flaming characterization. An Eastern attempt indeed! This is why I think re-unification cannot occur at present. Historical interpretation occording to New Advent (official Catholic slant?) is vastly different than the eastern take on the events.
It did confirm later in the article the summary of how I described the defeat of Arianism. It also said that Arian doctrine was condemned by the Bishop of Antioch where the school which nurtured it was. I didn't see Rome's influence in the matter anywhere, except to claim that because Alexandria was in communion with Rome, they deserve credit by association.
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 9:00:31 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear Andrea,
I posted the link because I hoped you would read the entire article and it is too long to quote here.
quote:
Michael, I just skimmed after the 3rd sentence in your link with it's flaming characterization. An Eastern attempt indeed! This is why I think re-unification cannot occur at present. Historical interpretation occording to New Advent (official Catholic slant?) is vastly different than the eastern take on the events.
Indeed, there are two sides to every story. I just want to make sure that you and Superdave understand that fact. Us Catholics have our own take on the sack of Constantinople, for example. Not a shining example of Christianity on the Eastern part during events preceding that sad day, to say the least.
quote:
It did confirm later in the article the summary of how I described the defeat of Arianism. It also said that Arian doctrine was condemned by the Bishop of Antioch where the school which nurtured it was. I didn't see Rome's influence in the matter anywhere, except to claim that because Alexandria was in communion with Rome, they deserve credit by association.
The article also confirmed that papal legates were present to affirm the decision of the council. Perhaps you missed that part. If nothing else, you should be able to admit Arianism was a heretical doctrine embraced by the majority of the Eastern bishops at one time. The point being, no such heresy has ever been promulgated from the seat of unity, the Bishopric of Rome.
I don't intend any disrespect, Andrea, but I will defend my faith as much as you do.
Pax Christi,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 11:03:36 PM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Indeed, there are two sides to every story. I just want to make sure that you and Superdave understand that fact. Us Catholics have our own take on the sack of Constantinople, for example. Not a shining example of Christianity on the Eastern part during events preceding that sad day, to say the least.
So if they don't shine, sack 'em? Not that I believe they weren't shining, but both our sides will probably not agree on that.
quote:
The article also confirmed that papal legates were present to affirm the decision of the council. Perhaps you missed that part. If nothing else, you should be able to admit Arianism was a heretical doctrine embraced by the majority of the Eastern bishops at one time. The point being, no such heresy has ever been promulgated from the seat of unity, the Bishopric of Rome.
I don't intend any disrespect, Andrea, but I will defend my faith as much as you do.
Pax Christi,
Michael
Indeed the Council of Nicea was Ecumenical. I have not heard the East diss Rome's participation in it. The article did agree that Athanasius (of Alexandria) was the champion in defeating Arianism, the same word I used. And we do not deny that some of our bishops have erred, which is why we don't claim the infallibility of any one person, and even if the majority were in error at any particular point, the Ecumenical decisions (1st 7) do not reflect that. This is why we claim to hold infallible doctrine, God preserved the faith despite fallible individuals. Also, erring bishops have not been canonized as church fathers or saints. I don't know that much about Roman history pre-schism, but the Nicene Creed was an ecumenical decision embraced by east and west, and changing it in the later part of the first millenium was a Roman papal decision, which goes against the Orthodox conciliar approach, hence we deem it Papal heresy. Changing it also deems the first council decision (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father) as in error, which is another un-Orthodox thing to do - going against a conciliar canonical decision.
Another thing, that article said that Arianism was an attempt "by" the Eastern Church .... If y'all are serious about unity, you shouldn't phrase disputed stuff in that way. If they had just said "among some" in the east who were influenced by Arius, it would have been slightly more conciliatory. It didn't even bring up Arius until after the very long first paragraph lauding Roman purity. Like it was some east-wing conspiracy and he was just the front man. Hardly.
Anywho, I completely expect you to defend your church just as I will. No personal offense taken, as I hope I did not offend you.
And I forgot to say earlier that we call it "Holy Week" too.
- Like a river! (tribute to my departed friend, Janelle, may God have mercy on her soul.)
Andrea
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/23/2005 11:07:09 PM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
Oops, duplicate post.
< Message edited by 1lightseeker -- 4/24/2005 9:28:32 PM >
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 4:08:48 PM
|
|
|
Konstantinos
Posts: 8648
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Greece Thessaloniki
Status: offline
|
How exactly are the popes not heretic, when they view themselves as above all others humans, whereas the Bible never says such a thing. And the Holy Fire/Light stuff, I don't really care for that story. And yes I do view most "priests" that are here in Greece as heretics too. Does it matter that they say they are orthodox? A man's tree is understood by its fruit. And for me, as long as churches, whether they call them orthodox or protestant or catholic or whatever, are so full with pictures, statues, and generally stuff that nowhere in the Bible commands the churches to be so, I will believe that some, if not most, "priests" are heretics.
Besides it is written in the Bible, that before the end, even the "priests" won't be priests at all.
_____________________________
I'm best friends with the boogie man.
I'm a beast.
I'm a HH.
Tiger hug.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 4:31:43 PM
|
|
|
bettyg51
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lord_Storm
How exactly are the popes not heretic, when they view themselves as above all others humans, whereas the Bible never says such a thing. And the Holy Fire/Light stuff, I don't really care for that story. And yes I do view most "priests" that are here in Greece as heretics too. Does it matter that they say they are orthodox? A man's tree is understood by its fruit. And for me, as long as churches, whether they call them orthodox or protestant or catholic or whatever, are so full with pictures, statues, and generally stuff that nowhere in the Bible commands the churches to be so, I will believe that some, if not most, "priests" are heretics.
Besides it is written in the Bible, that before the end, even the "priests" won't be priests at all.
The pope does not put himself above other humans. He does the job of shepherd that was given to Peter, as has been discussed in previous posts . He is the "servant of the servants of God" who like Peter washes the feet as Jesus does.
“Churches...are so full with pictures, statues, and generally stuff” because religious art is commanded by Scripture. The Ark of the Covenant was decorated with angel statues. So was the temple of Solomon. Moses was commanded to make a serpent figure on a pole to heal the people.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 6:59:15 PM
|
|
|
divinemercy
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lord_Storm
How exactly are the popes not heretic, when they view themselves as above all others humans,
Your knowledge of Catholicism is extemely poor as all your posts show in this thread.
Your false statements are the result of your lack of knowledge and whatever false assumptions you have formed in your mind because of this.
A rudimentary study of the very basics of Catholicism would be helpful to you.
It will help you not bear false witness as you keep doing time and time again.
Only then can someone discuss anything with you that would profit both parties.
quote:
A man's tree is understood by its fruit
Yes, You best remember that.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 7:01:10 PM
|
|
|
divinemercy
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bettyg51
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lord_Storm
How exactly are the popes not heretic, when they view themselves as above all others humans, whereas the Bible never says such a thing. And the Holy Fire/Light stuff, I don't really care for that story. And yes I do view most "priests" that are here in Greece as heretics too. Does it matter that they say they are orthodox? A man's tree is understood by its fruit. And for me, as long as churches, whether they call them orthodox or protestant or catholic or whatever, are so full with pictures, statues, and generally stuff that nowhere in the Bible commands the churches to be so, I will believe that some, if not most, "priests" are heretics.
Besides it is written in the Bible, that before the end, even the "priests" won't be priests at all.
The pope does not put himself above other humans. He does the job of shepherd that was given to Peter, as has been discussed in previous posts . He is the "servant of the servants of God" who like Peter washes the feet as Jesus does.
“Churches...are so full with pictures, statues, and generally stuff” because religious art is commanded by Scripture. The Ark of the Covenant was decorated with angel statues. So was the temple of Solomon. Moses was commanded to make a serpent figure on a pole to heal the people.
Nicely said Betty.
Lord Storm as well as learning the rudiments of Catholicism before you post, you should read the OT also.
_____________________________
Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God, and be not ashamed to give Him praise.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 9:04:14 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear Andrea,
What began this exchange was your comment on my post to Superdave, in which you said:
quote:
Arius was from Antioch, but he was defeated by the Synod of Alexandria (Egypt) and the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, championed by Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria.
With all due respect, Arius was not "defeated by the Synod of Alexandria;" he was defeated when the Ecumenical council including the papal legates of the Bishop of Rome, the seat of unity, ratified the Eastern Saint's view that Arius was a heretic, who misled many in the East.
That is the point. That is why we "need a Pope," and it just goes to prove that the Eastern Church relied on the "seat of unity" to settle their disputes...as I said.
Perhaps another time we can calmly discuss our understanding of the events surrounding the sinful and unfortunate behavior of some faithful on both sides of the sack of Constantinople. As it is, my time is limited right now.
God's Grace fill your soul during this Holy Season,
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 9:51:27 PM
|
|
|
1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
Michael,
The wording in your post is more palatable than the Catholic Encyclopedia.
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Dear Andrea,
What began this exchange was your comment on my post to Superdave, in which you said:
quote:
Arius was from Antioch, but he was defeated by the Synod of Alexandria (Egypt) and the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, championed by Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria.
With all due respect, Arius was not "defeated by the Synod of Alexandria;" he was defeated when the Ecumenical council including the papal legates of the Bishop of Rome, the seat of unity, ratified the Eastern Saint's view that Arius was a heretic, who misled many in the East.
Here's where I got my info: "Condemned by the synod of Alexandria (320), he left the city; but he was kindly received both by Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius of Nicomedia, and it was evident that not a few of the Asiatic churches favored his ideas." http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/arianism.html
Christian doctrine, though present since Apostolic times, had to go through a lot of troubled times until it got officially declared and set in concrete. We consider the first seven centuries pretty tumultuous, but thankfully the truth did prevail with the contributions of many saints in the east and west.
quote:
That is the point. That is why we "need a Pope," and it just goes to prove that the Eastern Church relied on the "seat of unity" to settle their disputes...as I said.
We need the whole body of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. The OC puts more emphasis on conciliar decisions which are ratified by the faithful.
quote:
Perhaps another time we can calmly discuss our understanding of the events surrounding the sinful and unfortunate behavior of some faithful on both sides of the sack of Constantinople. As it is, my time is limited right now.
I appreciate your broadening my view of history. As a protestant I knew nothing of the first 1500 years of the Church. Even now as a one year student of Orthodoxy, I did not know that Arianism was accepted by so many bishops. And it does seem that they were mostly in the east. But then again we don't claim the infallible teaching authority of any individual bishop. What we can both agree on is that it did not prevail in either of our canons.
The sack of Constantinople is another grievance between our churches, but I don't think it has the ramifications of disunity that the changing of the Nicene Creed and the infallibility and individual sovereignty of the Pope does.
_____________________________
My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/24/2005 11:48:38 PM
|
|
|
judeslice
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, when the Pope is utilizing His authority as given to him by the Lord Jesus then we can say with confidence that it is equal in authority to Christ's words since Our Blessed Lord Jesus gave them that authority.
lurker did you compare the pope to GOD ? Pope is equal to the authority of Yeshua the Messiah ? Don't you know that the word of God is GOD ? John 1:1 . So let me get this straight you are saying that the pope is equal to God , because God gave him Authority ? So no matter what the pope says or does you have follow him because he has the same authority as God . Where in the Bible does it say to call Peter the pope . As far as calling Peter the rock lets see what peter himself has to say about who the rock is .
1 Peter 2:4-9
2:4
Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God's sight chosen and precious;
2:5
and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6
For it stands in scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."
2:7
To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, "The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,"
2:8
and "A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall"; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
So according to you the rock is Peter . So in v4 the stone must be peter , v6 the stone , conner stone must be peter again in v7 the stone must be peter v8 the stone , and Rock must be peter also . We all know that the rock is Christ . In Matt 16 it does not say on you , peter , or on your successors , it says on this rock , and if you believe Peter in 1 peter 2:4-9 the Rock is Christ .
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/25/2005 1:00:05 PM
|
|
|
Lurker
Posts: 753
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: judeslice
Lurker, did you compare the pope to GOD?
No. Not really. I did point out that the Pope did exercise the authority given to him BY God though.
quote:
Pope is equal to the authority of Yeshua the Messiah?
Nope, he's only equal to whatever authority Jesus gave him. Which is the authority to bind and loose. To guide the Church here on Earth. It's right there in Matthew 16:15-19 iirc.
quote:
Don't you know that the word of God is GOD ? John 1:1.
Yeah. I read the Bible and am familiar with the gospel of John. It's one of my favourites! :)
quote:
So let me get this straight you are saying that the pope is equal to God , because God gave him Authority?
No, the pope is NOT equal to God, but he does have an immense amount of authority that was given to him by God. So, when he exercises his authority I tend to listen.
quote:
So no matter what the pope says or does you have follow him because he has the same authority as God.
Ahhh.... Sounds like you're confused over where the authority given to the office by Jesus begins and ends. Might be useful for you to check out this document. It explains when the Pope is considered infalliable and why.
quote:
Where in the Bible does it say to call Peter the pope.
The term "Pope" is actually a variation on the term "Papa", a term of endearment for the successor to Peter. :) We call him the Pope (papa) because he is our spiritual mentor and guides us towards Christ with patience and love.
quote:
As far as calling Peter the rock lets see what peter himself has to say about who the rock is.
Sounds good...
quote:
1 Peter 2:4-9
2:4
Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God's sight chosen and precious;
2:5
and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6
For it stands in scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."
2:7
To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, "The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,"
2:8
and "A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall"; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
*nod* I've always liked Peter's writings. :)
quote:
So according to you the rock is Peter .
No, according to Jesus, Peter is the rock. But continue...
quote:
So in v4 the stone must be peter, v6 the stone, corner stone must be peter, again in v7 the stone must be peter, v8 the stone , and Rock must be peter also.
In order....
No, no, nope, and no.
quote:
We all know that the rock is Christ.
Yep, the foundation of the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant is Our Blessed Lord and Saviour, Jesus! Praise His Holy Name!
quote:
In Matt 16 it does not say on you, Peter , or on your successors , it says on this rock, and if you believe Peter in 1 peter 2:4-9 the Rock is Christ .
I kinda disagree on your interpretation.You see, actually Jesus is quite clear that He is making Peter the head of His earthly Church. "You are Kephas (Rock) and upon this Kepha I will build my Church." Notice how Our Blessed and Most Merciful Lord immediately continues by giving Kephas (Peter/Rock) the symbols of authority. "I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven..." Jesus is the foundation of the Church. It is precisely because Jesus is the founder of the Church that we can rest assured that Peter (and his successors) has the authority to lead us. Jesus was heading back to reign at the right hand of His Father (Glory to Him!) and because of His Love for His people, made sure that we would have someone down here on Earth to guide us.
So I see no conflict to the idea that Peter is the Rock that the Church Militant (the believers still on earth) is founded upon, whereas Jesus is the Rock that the entire Church is founded upon (Church Triumphant (believers in heaven) and Militant).
*edited to fix a small spelling mistake*
< Message edited by Lurker -- 4/25/2005 2:56:21 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
