|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/2/2008 5:56:43 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 838
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Kneeling in worship before statues!
I copied this post from another thread that was veering off-topic: the material belongs here -
quote:
You shall not BOW DOWN to them or worship them for I the Lord your God, is a jealous God. So the discussion then is about the legalistic view of the apprearance of impropriety to those outside a person, observing their behavior and rendering judgment upon that observation, and not about the intent and content of the heart of the person assuming such a posture?
How is that different from just practicing Judaism and attempting to "fulfill the law", and attempting to label that fulfillment by rendering judgment upon conveniently defining a label for an observation of another's behavior?
I am not sure how the tradition of bowing before the Queen of England got started, but I am sure there was a time where perhaps this wasn't done. So this is a socialized behavior that one does reflecting a recognition of office. How do we equate that to "worship"? Especially if the "worshipper" is clear that the intent is not to "worship" but to "honor" or "respect" or just simply "recognize"?
If you define in your own personal dictionary the word "worship" to mean "assuming the posture of being on ones's knees", then I "worship" my cupboards everytime I go down to the lowest one to get my electric fryer out....(..."hail holy cupboards, yield thy treasure of thine holy Presto Fry Daddy, behind thine George Foreman Grill...")
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/2/2008 11:38:57 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1989
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
If you define in your own personal dictionary the word "worship" to mean "assuming the posture of being on ones's knees", then I "worship" my cupboards everytime I go down to the lowest one to get my electric fryer out....(..."hail holy cupboards, yield thy treasure of thine holy Presto Fry Daddy, behind thine George Foreman Grill...")
I see you deleted the "way too easy " comment...
Common sense tells us to not bow to the toaster god.
Your "argument", if one can call it that is predicated
on the physical submission, and not the heart's position.
Some of us will ONLY bow to God Himself. No man/statue.
Even under penalty of death; which will one day happen.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/2/2008 11:43:21 AM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
This is why traditions that aren't included in scripture are not a part of my life. I could personally care less what other people think about my actions...
It's a different story when it comes to God: When He says "Do not bow to anyone but Me" I'm not taking chances. I understand that this isn't so much because of there being a problem with my heart... The problem is what it can teach others who don't have their heart in the right place: What example am I showing to those who don't know Jesus?
What are they going to think if they know people aren't supposed to worship anyone but God, yet they see Catholics kneeling before all kinds of different idols? That's why God doesn't want you doing what you do... It's not me that has a problem with it. It's the God you supposedly serve who has made it VERY clear that you aren't supposed to do it... Yet you still do! THAT'S mind-boggling!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 2/4/2008 3:10:15 PM
|
|
|
mom_of_a_soldier
Posts: 152
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
|
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2113 - Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
********************************************************************************
I joined the CC when I was 21. I left it 8yrs. ago. I'm now 38. I will admit I haven't read the Catechism in full. But I do know that, the CC does not "teach" to worship statues. Although there are ppl in it who do. I have seen it 1st hand. But I have also seen it 1st hand, Non - Catholics, have thier own idolatry. We all have from 1 time. It may not be a statue, may not be something that anyone knows of but ourselves. But we all have them or had them.
I think we ALL should get off each others back, & remember who is the true one to be worshipped. Jesus!
_____________________________
If you can’t be a good example, then you’ll just have to be a horrible warning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/8/2008 7:49:06 PM
|
|
|
EssenceofExcellence
Posts: 10
Joined: 3/8/2008
Status: offline
|
I read the intitial post on page 1 explaining why there's nothing idolatrous about the statues and images in the CC. After reading the statements and arguments he made I could accept the fact that the intentions of the statues aren't idolatrous by nature and I'll admit the arguments using scripture are good (even though one could also agrue that the only time statues were ever made were when God himself commanded them to be made and as for the other statues used in the CC no commadment that we know of has been issued to make them), but they still don't totaly make it feel right to me.
The one thing I'd like to ask is a follow up to what was said about bowing down to statues, he emphasiized that they're really bowing to God and not to the statue which I can say okay to, but what about the times I've seen catholics including a priest KISS statues? That to me speaks of idolatry.
I'd also like to add that I voice these concerns as someone considering to start going to CC services.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/10/2008 9:13:28 AM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
The Catholic church does not encourage or condone the worship of statues, as the word "worship" is defined in any dictionary I am aware of. The Catholic Church forbids worshipping anyone (or anything) other than God and always has. According to Catholic doctrine, all that is not God is a creation of God and is not worthy of man's worship, as the quotation above from the CCC makes quite clear. I have never seen (to my knowledge) a Catholic worship a statue. I don't know how I would know, unless they were asking the statue to grant their request or praising it for miraculous works. The idea is ridiculous to me. I am amazed that people, especially intelligent, educated people, still believe this.
Some of the confusion appears, to me, to result from cultural differences between Catholics and Protestants. In many of the traditionally Catholic countries (Italy, Spain, Latin America, etc.) physical signs of respect, like kissing, for example, are much more common than in northern Europe. Catholic worship tends to be more sensory in general. Catholic worship involves different postures (kneeling), gestures (the sign of the cross), and objects, such as palms, ashes, holy water, candles, incense, etc. Kneeling is a common posture of prayer in the Catholic Church. We kneel at the most important parts of the mass. Traditionally Catholics kneeled before their bed to pray. We kneel before the casket of a deceased loved one to pray. We kneel during the stations of the cross and we kneel during prayer before statues, images of the models of our faith. In my experience Catholics do not "bow down" before statues. They kneel before them while praying, but they do not pray to the statue or worship the statue. Catholics traditionally bow before the altar and bow or genuflect (rest the right knee of the ground) before Christ's presence in the tabernacle (the container where the consecrated Communion host is reserved).
Kissing is also a common sign of respect (not worship) in Catholic culture. On Good Friday Catholics traditionally kiss a wooden cross as a sign of reverence (not worship), because of Christ's act of redemption that it symbolizes. At the beginning of every mass the priest kisses the altar. This is meant as a sign of reverence for the Eucharist and the altar as a symbol of Christ, the paschal lamb, and (at least in old churches) to reverence the bones of the martyr encased in the altar (a different topic!). At none of these times is the kiss a sign of worship. The Orthodox and eastern rite Catholics often kiss icons. This is also not an act of worship. A kiss, just like the kiss you gave your mother, is a sign of respect.
A statue in a church or home, like a painting, or a stained glass window, is a piece of artwork that depicts a person or angel, who is a model of faith. I can certainly understand when other Christians don't understand why we do what we do or believe that it is a violation of the Ten Commandments, but Catholics do not worship statues.
< Message edited by MichiganCatholic -- 3/10/2008 9:25:13 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/12/2008 12:13:38 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
I think the point here is that you guys revere these historical humans in a manner that exceeds what God wants us to limit it to. The prayers that are used, through the language used in them, place these saints and Mary in a position well beyond any capability attributed to them by God Himself. These prayers do this consistently...
The flaw in the Catechism (sp) quote above is pretty glaring:
It starts OK, by explaining that idolatry is making something other than God be divine, but then seems to limit idolatry to replacing God. Idolatry isn't limited to this... It is making something other than God seem to be more than it really is, or can do things beyond what God says they can do. Then this idol is worshipped when someone goes before it reverently and asks it to do something that only God can do.
You can try to candy coat the prayers and say that they are you asking these 'people'(?) to go before God with our petitions, when in actuality, by understanding the scope and language used in these prayers, it is pretty obvious that this isn't the case... These people have been made divine. They may not replace God, but they are placed up there with Him in a 'divine' standing... According to this Catechism, the majority of your prayers to Mary and the saints are the evidence of the idolatry you claim doesn't exist...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/13/2008 1:59:09 PM
|
|
|
EssenceofExcellence
Posts: 10
Joined: 3/8/2008
Status: offline
|
So you're saying you kiss statues because you respect the statue? So you respect a rock? If you respect the apostle (Peter or John, I think the statue I saw kissed was supposed to be Peter) then say you respect him, if you believe he can hear you prayers as well, pray, but why kiss a rock because you respect an apostle?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/13/2008 2:53:35 PM
|
|
|
Lurker
Posts: 731
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
So you're saying you kiss statues because you respect the statue? So you respect a rock? If you respect the apostle (Peter or John, I think the statue I saw kissed was supposed to be Peter) then say you respect him, if you believe he can hear you prayers as well, pray, but why kiss a rock because you respect an apostle?
Why kneel or kiss a picture of a loved one who's not there with you?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/13/2008 4:59:34 PM
|
|
|
EssenceofExcellence
Posts: 10
Joined: 3/8/2008
Status: offline
|
I've never knelt before a picture of a loved one, nor have I kissed a picture of a loved one that I can recall. But regardless that's not comparable to things done in a religious setting. Even if you can believe that showing a sign of "respect" on a statue is okay because your mind is really on what it depicts.....you have to admit or realize how at the very least this is dangerously close to idolatry. No other gods, no idols or graven images.........I don't think God wants us to revere in anyway anything but him especially man made images. If the statues and pictures used in the CC are only there to bring God to mind and bring rememberance to Him and specific events and the acts of the apostles and such, why go beyond that by doing something that brings unneeded attention to the statue or picture itself, where as the attention should be focused inwardly towards God.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/13/2008 6:26:31 PM
|
|
|
mariadreamer
Posts: 355
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: va
Status: offline
|
Welcome, essence! To answer your question, we do not believe that we worship God with only our minds. God does not hate matter, He made it, and He made our bodies. So we use our whole selves to worship God Who is glorified in His creation.
Using the words of St. John of Damascus: "Of old,
God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now,
however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I
make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I
worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned
to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. "
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/13/2008 6:47:39 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Essence,
The statue you are probably referring to is the large statue of St. Peter in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican. The foot of the statue is worn smooth from being kissed over the centuries. Kissing the statue is a purely voluntary, customary act of respect to St. Peter, not to the statue, which has particular meaning in the church where St. Peter is buried (at least according to Catholic tradition - I have to say it or someone will go on the attack). If we were respecting the statue as a statue it would probably be in a museum, far from the lips of tourists.
This is a fairly unique custom, BTW. I have never, personally, seen a statue being kissed in a Catholic Church although it would certainly not bother me. I have seen Eastern Orthodox faithful kiss an icon. It might be more common in other Catholic cultures or just an Italian thing. They love statues. One traditional practice is what is known as a May Crowning, in which a child (usually a young girl) places a crown of flowers on a statue of Mary (who is honored particularly during the month of May). During the crowning we sing "praise and worship" songs to May (sarcasm!). We do sing Marian hymns. I'm sure the sight of this would put most of our Protestant brethren over the edge.
Of course, the statue is just an object and doesn't deserve any respect at all for what it is (marble, wood, etc.), but for what it represents, just like a flag is just a piece of cloth, given respect for what it represents. It represents Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, who we believe was a pretty special lady. I have never understood why some Protestant churches hang pictures of Jesus in the hallway outside the sanctuary, or put a nativity scene on the lawn of the church, but get so angry when they see statues in a Catholic Church. I can understand if they don't want to pray before an "idol," but why would they even want them in their church? I know some Protestant churches have no decoration at all, like mosques, for this very reason. Why do they go to see The Passion of the Christ, which is two hours of moving images of Jesus and his apostles?
When my mother went to church as a child she went back and forth between her mother's very fundamentalist church, a "gospel hall", where musical instruments, of any kind, were forbidden, to her Irish Catholic grandfather's church, a evangelical's nightmare, a huge church full of marble statues, gold, and paintings. We obviously disagree as to the interpretation of the terms "idols" and "graven images" and I can understand that these practices may look odd to others. Catholics usually find it odd when "holy rollers" (no offense) jump pews, scream, and dance during church. We all have our quirks.
< Message edited by MichiganCatholic -- 3/13/2008 7:11:34 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 12:29:25 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mom_of_a_soldier
Catechism of the Catholic Church
2113 - Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
********************************************************************************
I joined the CC when I was 21. I left it 8yrs. ago. I'm now 38. I will admit I haven't read the Catechism in full. But I do know that, the CC does not "teach" to worship statues. Although there are ppl in it who do. I have seen it 1st hand. But I have also seen it 1st hand, Non - Catholics, have thier own idolatry. We all have from 1 time. It may not be a statue, may not be something that anyone knows of but ourselves. But we all have them or had them.
I think we ALL should get off each others back, & remember who is the true one to be worshipped. Jesus!
I have to agree to quite an extent, here.
The one thing I do have a hard time letting go of is the fact that ANY church worthy of being affiliated with Christ should make sure not only to avoid teaching statue/idol worship (which,supposedly the RCC does) But they also should make it a point to teach people NOT to. This is one place where I see the RCC fails to do the job of a true church of Christ.
If you also note in the catechism that it also states that idolotry is only in regards to a 'creature'. Somewhere, they missed the lesson in Exodus about the golden calf... That was a graven image... not a 'creature'. But, I guess that would make it wrong to do what they all do with their rosaries and statues... Evidently, one two many lawyers were involved in the writing of this...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 3/15/2008 12:41:06 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 12:39:19 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
In my experience, it just doesn't occur to people to worship a statue. What may be a very real concern to an outside observer, who sees behavior that appears, in his culture to demonstrate worship, but for those raised in Catholic culture, the idea of worshipping a statue is total alien. To teach the faithiful to not worship the statue at church is akin to saying don't take one home and marry it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 12:45:48 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
Are you saying (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic) that Christians should not make any images or (graven images) of anything for any purpose or that they should just not be used as a part of prayer? Is a crucifix (setting aside the issue of whether Jesus should be depicted that way) wrong because it is a graven image of Jesus, because it is a graven image of anything, or because it is used by Catholics as part of their prayer? Is the creation of other statuary wrong (like garden gnomes) or is it only wrong if we use it as part of prayer?
< Message edited by MichiganCatholic -- 3/15/2008 12:53:30 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 12:55:06 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
I just thought of an image of a creature that is in the New Testament. In the Gospels the Holy Spirit descends over Jesus like or as a dove. For this reason the most common Catholic image of the Holy Spirit is a dove. Now, of course, the Holy Spirit is not a dove, but Catholic church buildings (even St. Peter's Basilica) often include images (typically not statues) of a dove to symbolize the Holy Spirit. This is interesting because it is one of the few instances where the New Testament actually uses a symbol of an animal for a person of the Holy Trinity. Is it idolatrous to paint an image of a dove on the wall of a church where that image is explicitly used in the Gospels as a symbol of the Holy Spirit?
< Message edited by MichiganCatholic -- 3/15/2008 1:01:13 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 12:59:15 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichiganCatholic
Papa-san,
In my experience, it just doesn't occur to people to worship a statue. What may be a very real concern to an outside observer, who sees behavior that appears, in his culture to demonstrate worship, but for those raised in Catholic culture, the idea of worshipping a statue is total alien. To teach the faithiful to not worship the statue at church is akin to saying don't take one home and marry it.
If your church had a clue as to what Christ commanded us to do, it would end the practice. Christians are a light to the world, NOT a light unto themselves...
As to the rest, I guess it makes a difference as to whether or not the people kneel before it, kiss it, and/or pray to/through it... What are you showing to the pagans? What kind of example are you setting? You are setting stumbling-blocks in front of every non-Christian who sees what you so commonly and lightly practice... I think I read somewhere that this is not a good thing to do... But, I guess if the Great Commission means nothing to you, then don't change anything... You're doin' GREAT!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 3/15/2008 1:08:10 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 1:25:09 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
Why should I care how other people perceive my actions if they are ignorant of what I am actually doing? The practice of my faith is not part of a marketing campaign. I think more "pagans" are turned off by Christianity through experiences with the narrow minded and uncharitable (of all Christian denominations, Catholics not excluded) than by how any of us worship.
Catholics do not pray to or through a statue. You know this! It appears that the whole hang up is the kneeling before a statue. Catholics also traditionally kneel before the casket of a deceased love one at the visitation or wake. This is probably a practice you dissapprove of. Catholics may pray to or for the deceased love one, which is another topic altogether (for example, (May he or she Rest in Peace), but Catholics do not pray to the dead body. The fact that you kneel before something doesn't mean you are praying to it. As I think was said before on this thread, kneeling before your bed doesn't mean you are praying to the bed (Oh great bed, please grant me restful dreams). Come on!
< Message edited by MichiganCatholic -- 3/15/2008 1:39:03 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 2:01:46 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MichiganCatholic
Papa-san,
Why should I care how other people perceive my actions if they are ignorant of what I am actually doing? Because Jesus Christ has commanded you to be an example before the world, which means to avoid doing things that will cause confusion and hence the creation of a stumbling-block for them. THATS why you SHOULD CARE!quote:
The practice of my faith is not part of a marketing campaign. What a pity! Jesus Christ tells me that mine is, and that yours is supposed to be as well! (If you are part of His body, it HAS to matter.)
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 3/15/2008 2:09:24 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 2:26:30 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
Faith is something to be practiced, not something to be sold like an insurance policy ("just make these easy premium payments and you are assured of an eternal death benefit"). The fact that many Chrisitians see their roles as marketers for Christ explains some of the stuff I see on Christian TV. People flock to the most fun church, with the most handsome inspiring preacher who gives the most uplifting messages. If church was boring, confusing, or unpleasant in any way it would turn off the pagans.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 3:02:59 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
I do understand this concern. I see things done in the name of Christ that just turn my stomach.
It's not about 'selling' Him to people. We are to set forth a godly example of the things He has commanded us to do. My 'sales pitch' is the way I walk in my daily life. I have a good handle on what God has told us through the 6000 years of His communication with us, and I try to do my best so that at any time, someone on the outside will see Jesus Christ, not me.
He doesn't want us doing things that will cause people to question what we say. If you tell people that you serve and worship God alone, and then they see you kneeling in prayer before a statue of Mary, what they see is hypocrisy. You and I know it isn't the case, but to someone in darkness, it causes concern and confusion. Then, if they find someone kneeling in front of a tree in prayer, they are going to think that the person praying is worshiping a tree. They see both, so now they have an understanding that they can kneel before whatever they want to, and it's all good.
When Paul arrived at the shrine of the unknown god, he told them who the real God is, and that they needed to renounce their practice of going about and praying to these other statues. He and we know there are no gods 'behind' them, so why pray before them? Imagine what would have happened if he would have knelt before the statue of Athena and prayed to Mary... Well, you are kneeling before the statue of Mary and praying to God... There is no difference, and you don't know when you have an unsaved person in your midst observing what you are doing.
Don't give this opportunity for confusion. You know what you're doing, but those you are witnessing to may not understand. (Yes, when someone is watching you, whether you know it or not, you are witnessing to them.) What do you want them to see? Just food for thought. God didn't want people seeing Christs' disciples (or the Hebrews in Exodus, for that matter) kneeling and praying before idols... I just think that if there is a chance for a wrong impression to be made, we need to avoid unseemly actions...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 3:32:21 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
I disagree, but I see what you're getting at. I agree with you regarding your stomach turning watching some of the stuff on television. I try to use every opportunity to explain why we do what we do, to the best of my knowledge, to other Catholics and to non-Catholics. My church does a terrible job of that. Sometimes I think most of us forget how much our background and culture color how we see the world around us. There are many things we take for granted in our respective faiths that are totally foreign to other Christians, let alone non-Christians. Catholic practices, it appears, are very foreign to many Americans. Sometimes Protestants, especially evangelical ones, don't realize that their practices can be just as foreign to Catholics. Sometimes when my wife and I go to a Protestant wedding or funeral or watch preachers on TV we look at eachother and wonder what in the world are they talking about. We attended the beautiful funeral of my great aunt, who was a devout Baptist. The service was lead by my cousin, who recently graduated from a Baptist seminary. His wife got up a lead the congregation in the beautiful hymn "Blessed Assurance" without hymnals. Everybody new the words and tune, except my wife and I. Likely for doctrinal reasons, it is not sung in Catholic churches, although many hymns written by Protestants are. It was a funny moment.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 4:12:37 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
Clearly understood.
We all do come from different backgrounds, and that does tend to color our perceptions. I was raised Catholic, so your story of the hymn is very familiar to me. To this day, I go places and they sing these hymns by heart, and I haven't got a clue...
One of the first faults I found in the Catholic church is that absolutely no-one gave even the slightest concern as to whether I learned anything about God or not. As long as I showed up for Mass, obviously I knew all I needed to... By 25 years of age, I had no clue about any of it. I had obviously heard the name of Jesus Christ, but knew almost nothing about His teachings- only about His sacrifice, but not why. I asked- no-one answered. I saw people doing all kinds of rituals, but couldn't get them explained to me.
Then I asked someone who WAS willing to answer my questions, then I got into the word, and between those, I learned what I needed to. Through this, I was convinced that many of the things I saw in Catholicism were in direct contradiction to Gods word. The only thing I could assume about the way people were kneeling before and praying to these various statues is that it is idolatry.
All I know is what I saw, and what I have had revealed to me through study of His word. Who knows, things may have ended up quite differently if someone would have been willing to teach, but my gut feel is that none of my 'teachers' had a clue either...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/15/2008 4:28:20 PM
|
|
|
MichiganCatholic
Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline
|
Papa-san,
I am glad that you were able to deepen your relationship with Christ and saddened that it was not my faith that made it possible. No doubt your experience is a common one. I study the Scriptures and find that it confirms my faith, but I know that is not always the case. I am saddened when I hear people say that they were Catholic, until they read the Bible. Where were the Catholics in there life teaching them about their faith and the treasure that is the Word of God? This is a failing on the Catholic Church's part.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 3/17/2008 10:43:48 PM
|
|
|
sudzer
Posts: 29
Joined: 2/13/2008
Status: offline
|
Hi first time in this thread, and have read the post. Let me ask you just one question, why would you as a professed Christian pray to anyone or anything but God, through His Son Jesus. If you bend your knee, bow your head or pray to anything made of earthly materials it is an idol. Though shall not make unto they any graven images, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thous shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for the Lord they God am a jealours God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fouth generation of them that hate me. KJV. That is the law in a nut shell. He who keeps my commandments, and the testimony of Jesus. God will not be mocked. We have been taught the doctorines of men as commandments of God. May The Lord Our God give us ears that hear and eyes that see. Blessings Sudzer
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
