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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 1:31:34 PM
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mariadreamer
Posts: 332
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From: va
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Sovereign,
The verse you are looking for is probably summed up under St. John's statement that if all that Jesus said and did were recorded it would be hard for the world to contain all that could be written.
Is there a limit to what can be stuffed into what John is refering to? Or is this case of "if the Church declares it" so be it and it's on par with God's word...
John
Wasn't it the Church (to which the Scriptures were given) that determined which writings are in fact the Word of God and which aren't? So why leave the Church completely out of it? And even so, why does God command Moses (somewhere in the OT) to make images of the cherubim and says that's where He would meet him?
As far is bowing down to statues/icons being prohibited, this is not something I understand, so maybe some of you can explain? Where is the difference between bowing down to an icon vs. to Christ before the icon or someone else?
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 1:57:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3807
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quote:
Wasn't it the Church (to which the Scriptures were given) that determined which writings are in fact the Word of God and which aren't? So why leave the Church completely out of it?
I believe it was God who actually determined which writings are in fact, His word...
quote:
And even so, why does God command Moses (somewhere in the OT) to make images of the cherubim and says that's where He would meet him?
God specific commands to specific people or person isn't a blank check to all that follow...
God also commaned Moses to slay those who didn't choose God... As well Joshua to whipe out all of Jericho...
quote:
As far is bowing down to statues/icons being prohibited, this is not something I understand, so maybe some of you can explain? Where is the difference between bowing down to an icon vs. to Christ before the icon or someone else?
I an not quite sure what you're asking...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 1:58:09 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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schupfNoodle,
there is nothing in scripture forbidding Christians from entreating other Christians, on earth or in heaven, to intercede in prayer on our behalf.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/14/2006 3:23:50 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Dear Maria,
With regard to bowing, veneration, etc. as touching icons, the canons teach that we may show icons the veneration that we may give to a man, but no more. Bowing, kneeling, and prostrating before governors, kings, and emperors is all acceptable in most circumstances (not all). To this day it is still customary to bow or kneel in the presence of western kings or to prostrate before eastern kings. The physical body has a limited gestural vocabulary so context has a lot to say about what is or is not permissible. For example the Hebrew children in Babylon were free to show all the customary modes of respect to their rulers...bowing, prostration, etc...but when those rulers demanded they bow to a false god, they remained standing.
We should also remember that we are not venerating or bowing to icons per se but to the person shown to us through the icon. If you wave at your friend out a window you are not greeting the window frame and its glass, but rather the person you see through the window. It is the same with icons.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/15/2006 7:06:47 PM
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Erucolindo
Posts: 124
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I understand the whole ideal behind prayer to the saint.
Having them intercede for you. I understand the parrelels.
However, the idol worshipper were also entreating their idols for help. There were entreating for many things. There were praying to others outside of God.
IN this life, while we are still alive it is okay, to us to ask someone to prayer for us and with us.
Paul asked again and again for people to pray for him.
However, once a persons goes to on to eternity, then it is idolatry to pray for them. IT is no different than the Israelites praying to Baal or Ashtoreth. If anyone prayss to anyone outside of the Blessed Trinity, Father, SOn and HOly SPirit. Then you are sinning agianst God.
I am sorry to say it, but it is the truth.
May God be praised for ever and ever AMen.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/16/2006 1:27:01 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erucolindo
However, the idol worshipper were also entreating their idols for help.
But re-examine your own wording: they were idol worshippers. The worship of idols is clearly forbidden, and lifeless idols can in no way intercede for us to the living God.
quote:
However, once a persons goes to on to eternity, then it is idolatry to pray for them.
Support this with scripture, please.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/16/2006 10:27:53 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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While veneration of the saints is a related issue, i think this thread is more focused on the more material expressions of this piety.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/17/2006 11:04:17 AM
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colleague3674
Posts: 92
Joined: 12/3/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Dear Sovereign,
The verse you are looking for is probably summed up under St. John's statement that if all that Jesus said and did were recorded it would be hard for the world to contain all that could be written.
Is there a limit to what can be stuffed into what John is refering to? Or is this case of "if the Church declares it" so be it and it's on par with God's word...
John
Wasn't it the Church (to which the Scriptures were given) that determined which writings are in fact the Word of God and which aren't? So why leave the Church completely out of it? And even so, why does God command Moses (somewhere in the OT) to make images of the cherubim and says that's where He would meet him?
As far is bowing down to statues/icons being prohibited, this is not something I understand, so maybe some of you can explain? Where is the difference between bowing down to an icon vs. to Christ before the icon or someone else?
I believe that the difference can be clearly illustrated in 2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
Like the cherubim Moses was also commanded to make a brazen serpent...a foreshadow of our Lord and Christ, but unlike the cherubim upon the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies (which is a picture of the throne of God) the brass serpent became a fetish for people who found it easier to seek out that which they could see rather than an invisable God.
You see that these images, icons etc. appeal to the flesh. They give the lover of God an instant real time sense of connection to their Lord. Whether you burn incense or light candles, it is a fetish that brings comfort to the flesh when yet the Word says we are to crucify the flesh...to walk by faith. To walk in the Spirit.
Please don't misunderstand, I am not attempting to challenge or put to doubt your faith but where is it you have placed your faith? Is it in Christ alone or have you fallen under the traditions of men?
The pharasies live by the torah but they also lived by the talmud...Rabbinical teachings. These are the "traditions" our Lord spoke of in Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Please see that it is not my desire to attack anyone. There is no condemnation to those in Christ and certainly none from me. But I beseech you brothers and sisters. I earnestly plead with you to if possible study the scripture for what it says not what you've been told.
I wish you love, grace and peace
Kenny
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/17/2006 11:28:57 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colleague3674
I believe that the difference can be clearly illustrated in 2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
No, this is different. What you need to realize is that the act of burning incense was, in that day, considered a form of worship. People began to worship the serpent apart from the realization that it symbolized Christ who was to come.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/17/2006 12:36:42 PM
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colleague3674
Posts: 92
Joined: 12/3/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: colleague3674
I believe that the difference can be clearly illustrated in 2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
No, this is different. What you need to realize is that the act of burning incense was, in that day, considered a form of worship. People began to worship the serpent apart from the realization that it symbolized Christ who was to come.
Greetings big-bri
I beg to differ. You stated People began to worship the serpent apart from the realization that it symbolized Christ who was to come. I truely don't believe that they at anytime realized it's symbolic representation to the comming Christ.
They were however aware that the burning of incense was an acceptable form of worship to YHVH, for in the Holy place was an alter of incense yet they were not permitted enter. The serpent was holy in the aspect that it was commanded of God, concecrated/set aside for His purpose...and this they had access to.
If you were not a Levite you had no chance of ever even approaching the holy implements of worship. Imagine how one would feel if your only access to your God was through another. To bring your sacrifice to another to offer up for you.
No my friend, this is not different. It was not a pagan artifact. It was no carved image of a pagan god, no molten calf, no fallic symbol. It was commanded of YHVH and made of The Prophet and proven in the wilderness...Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
It did however become a fetish. They sought to worship YHVH through this image/icon which is unacceptable to God.
I wish you love, grace and peace
Kenny
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/17/2006 3:48:22 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colleague3674
Greetings big-bri
Greetings to you, too.
quote:
You stated People began to worship the serpent apart from the realization that it symbolized Christ who was to come. I truely don't believe that they at anytime realized it's symbolic representation to the comming Christ.
No, of course not. That is why I worded it the way that I did. They did not know that the serpent symbolized and foreshadowed Christ's propitiation on the cross for our sins. Had they known, then it would have been a little more understandable, i.e. they would have been burning incense to He whom the serpent represented.
quote:
It did however become a fetish. They sought to worship YHVH through this image/icon which is unacceptable to God.
Actually, I think that they were worshipping the serpent directly for what it "did", i.e. what they thought that it did. They were not using it as a meditative icon, nor calling upon God through it.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/17/2006 9:34:03 PM
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aldrine
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From: Manila
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i was into catholicism before and i never ever worshipped statues though others took good care of 'em.worship is different from taking good care of. 
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/21/2006 9:01:24 PM
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colleague3674
Posts: 92
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Greetings big-bri
What you propose is quite possible, however what exactly is the difference? Do we truely believe that Edomite-Ed and Moabite-Moe, after cutting down their selelcted tree to cook their meat, bake their bread, heat harth & home and then carved an effigy of whichever godlike flavor of the day was...that they truely believed that it was a god?
Or
More realisticly they were using it as a meditative icon to call upon their god(s). Consider the abundance of idols found through archeology, multiple images of the same diety in the same location or proximity. They obviously had to realize that their personal rendition wasn't THE Baal, Molech, Dagon etc. but a physical interpretation of him/her. It is the nature of mankind to desire such physical representations of their dieties. It is prevelent in almost every culture/religion. That is what seperates Judaism, Islam and some of Christianity from the rest.
I wish you love, grace and peace
Kenny
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/21/2006 10:20:11 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colleague3674
It is the nature of mankind to desire such physical representations of their dieties. It is prevelent in almost every culture/religion.
True, but it is also prevelant in almost every culture to believe their idols-images to be spiritually embued with that being(s). For instance, take the Hopi kachinas: the masks and dolls did not merely represent specific beings; they were thought to embody them to some degree. A person wearing a particular kachina mask in essence became the particular spirit being that the mask represented while they wore it.
quote:
That is what seperates Judaism, Islam and some of Christianity from the rest.
No, actually Judaism and Islam share one very big thing in common with other tribal religions: geophysical locations, i.e. holy sites and cities, holy mountains, holy lands, etc. Jesus specifically addressed this issue with the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4.
Only Christianity is truly non-geospecific in essence, although there is still the notion that Israel is the holy land, the Vatican is the holy city, and so forth. This is why people bother to make pilgrimages.
The thing that separates Judaism from Islam and Christianity, putting it more in common with other tribal religions, is their non-devotion to proselytizing. The Jews believed and still believe to a large extent that Jehovah is their God, even though He is Lord of the whole world. They believe themselves to be God's specific, i.e. "peculiar", people and He is their God specifically. One is born a Jew ethnically, not converted to. Even though an outsider can adopt the belief of the Jews, they are not considered true Israelites just because they "converted".
Anyway, getting back to the issue of statues, I think that the Catholic church teaches that statues are merely icons, not embodiments of living spirits. They would never, ever teach their congegrates to bow down and worship statues, even though some individual Catholics might actually cross the line at times. This isn't a right thing to do, but my point is that the Church does not instruct them in any way, shape, or form to worship statues. They teach them to venerate what the icons represent.
< Message edited by big-bri -- 12/21/2006 10:23:53 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/22/2006 5:08:37 PM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
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quote:
Exodus 20:3-10
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
This is from a few posts back, but what exactly is the prohibition and how do you see it relating to making a statue?
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/22/2006 5:13:19 PM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
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SovereignIsHe,
You asked:
quote:
If you can't reach a brother or sister on earth by phone, email or smoke signals do you pray to them to pray for you?
You could use snail mail, carrier pigeon, sky-writing, or message in a bottle.  You could even use a courier, but I don't think this is what you intend. Can you elaborate how this applies in any way to praying to saints for intercession?
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Worship Statues? - 12/29/2006 6:01:00 PM
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schupfNoodle
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
schupfNoodle,
there is nothing in scripture forbidding Christians from entreating other Christians, on earth or in heaven, to intercede in prayer on our behalf.
Sorry, I was responding to back atcha about a scripture forbidding the worship of statues.
Scripture does say that we pray for each other.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/23/2007 9:06:44 AM
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GracieRuth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
True, but it is also prevelant in almost every culture to believe their idols-images to be spiritually embued with that being(s).
I boldened this quote because this is the crux of the matter. Pagans truly did give to their statues something which catholics do not. For us catholics, our inspirational art is simply ceramics that merely represent a saint, and no more. The essense or spirit of that saint does not somehow embody the statue.
Another comment on this post, although off topic:
quote:
One is born a Jew ethnically, not converted to. Even though an outsider can adopt the belief of the Jews, they are not considered true Israelites just because they "converted". This is quite untrue. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. A convert is adopted into the covenant people. They aren't half-Jews or sort of Jews or untrue Jews. They are now Jews. Ruth in the Bible became a Jewess.
quote:
Anyway, getting back to the issue of statues, I think that the Catholic church teaches that statues are merely icons, not embodiments of living spirits. They would never, ever teach their congegrates to bow down and worship statues, even though some individual Catholics might actually cross the line at times. This isn't a right thing to do, but my point is that the Church does not instruct them in any way, shape, or form to worship statues. They teach them to venerate what the icons represent.
Thank you for articulating this so well!
_____________________________
Grace
In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2007 12:12:13 PM
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marquez_1
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The thing with the Catholic church is, they are too reliant on "visible, phisical" things to strengthen their faith. But the purpose of faith is completely the opposite, to believe WITHOUT SEEING. The bible makes this clear, "because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29) when Jesus was talking to Thomas after the resurrection. To me this makes it pretty clear that Jesus is not really against icons or images, but states that the believer who believes without seeing is a stronger disciple. So in my opinion and my experiences, the Catholic Church foundation didnt intend on idol worship or things like that by the creation of statues, BUT I have seen with my own eyes, mostly in mexico and latin america, where the people really do worship the statues and passed loved ones in every manner of the word "worship". They pray to the dead (praying to get them out of purgatory i might add), they cry to the saints, and beg at the statue's feet to save their loved ones etc... My wife and her entire family is catholic, so i have been immersed to see all this myself. I have read the book of Catechism, and i know the original catholic intentions were good, there are soo many people who dont completely understand the purpose of the sacraments, statues, mary, saints, etc... and they end up sinning by being confused of the real intentions. Now you may say well this is the fault of those people, they shouldn't do what they are doing, they are not listening or understanding the true meaning. But i say this is the fault of the Catholic church for having this confusion in the first place. I know the catholic church KNOWS that some of its members participate in sacraments and traditions in the wrong way, but they do nothing about it. As soon as the catholic church realized this (who knows when) they should of changed their ways, and removed the confusion, remove the temptations that make genuine followers do the wrong thing. Although no church is perfect, and i see many great things in the catholic church, this is one of the reasons i am protestant. In a protestant church the distractions are all taken away, there is only YOU AND JESUS, no more no less. No mediators, no statues, no praying for the dead or saints, or mary for help. The catholic church is just too bent on being "the right church" that they are too stubborn to accept mistakes. The bible is abundantly clear, EVERYTHING CAN BE DONE THROUGH CHRIST ALONE. It's Christ only, not Christ PLUS Tradition. And according to the Catholic book of Catechism, "let any man who deny these teachings be anathema" Well i guess i am anathema. I'll take my chances with CHRIST ALONE.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2007 4:20:22 PM
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GracieRuth
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Dear Marqez:
Why would you be anathema? You are surely mistaken in many ways, but I do hope to see you in heaven despite your confusion :D.
I think you overestimate the amount of heterodoxy among Catholics, nevertheless I will reply. The Catholic churches offer adult classes all the time. However, there is the saying, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink. Just because classes are offered, doesn't mean those who need them will take them. Its the same way in Protestant churches. I'm the sort that because I listen well and keep confidences, people seem to feel free to tell me everything, and you would be surprised the kinds of things people in churches REALLY believe. God have mercy!
As to Christ alone, it is so easy to say Christ alone, but what does that MEAN? We all follow christ! However, haven't you noticed in the Bible that it is God's Modus Operendi to work THROUGH people? Christ has chosen to establish a church, not just the invisible body of all believers, but a visible church with apostles and their successors, the bishops, presbyters and deacons, and with rites such as baptism, breaking of bread, annointing of the sick, laying on of hands, etc. To love Christ is to love what Christ loves. To follow Christ is to do things the way he has asked them to be done. Not to go off on our own, and make it some sort of "Jesus and me" thing. Our relationship with Jesus is intimate, but not private. :D
_____________________________
Grace
In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/26/2007 11:52:00 AM
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marquez_1
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You absolutely right Gracie. God wants to work through his people. As i mentioned in the Pope thread, of course we need some sort of structure in the church. And yes of course our relationship with Jesus is intimate and not private. It is our purpose on this earth to share about jesus with others. Maybe i said the wrong words, but I wasnt trying to say its a Jesus and Me thing, sure we need a church to go to, but when the church starts throwing traditions and rituals that make some people confused, then these kind of things need to be looked at. And the thing with Catholics and other similar sects, is all the fancy robes, super sized bibles, giant churches, etc.. to the outside world just seem to be like a stage show, and when you are actually in the mass it all seems so fake, everyone sings because they feel they have to sing, no one really wants to go to church, i even know a lot of people that fear going into catholic churches cause all the statues and crucifiction scare them! Now im not saying that all this is wrong, I'm just saying if it makes a lot of people uncomfortable why do it? Just because its tradition? No. In a protestant church like Calvary Chapel, all that is taken away, you might see some crosses here and there, maybe a fish or a dove, but there are no fancy robes, traditions etc... You probably couldnt even seperate the head pastor from anyone else in the church if you tried.
From my experiences, the Protestant church (i speak for Calvary chapels, i know some protestant churches differ), are much more aligned with what Jesus christ originally taught and would of wanted in his church rather than all the dress up of Catholic style churches.
Look at jesus, he didnt dress up fancy like a Pharisee he was plain clothed. He never asked for special treatment for him or his diciples, but yet look at the pope.
Its not really about which church is the "right church", there is none. There are churches for everyone. But i look at it from a different perspective. Our main purpose is to BRING MORE TO CHRIST. Well in this day and age, what do you think attracts more people, a big fancy church and lots of rules, traditions etc... or something plain and simple that anyone can feel comfortable in. Thats what i think Jesus wanted for his church. Everyone has their own opinion, thats just mine.
Sorry for getting off topic, but needed to put that somewhere. 
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/26/2007 1:27:15 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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"Well in this day and age, what do you think attracts more people, a big fancy church and lots of rules, traditions etc... or something plain and simple that anyone can feel comfortable in."
Purjorative couching aside...tradition and faithfulness to what has been recieved rather than fad chasing, a faith that makes demands rather than making us comfortable is exactly what people are hungering for. The Orthodox Churches in North America have been staggered by the number of converts coming in over the last 30 or 40 years....and they weren't out there missionizing and prosyletizin anyone at the time...just trying to be faithful to what they had received. Would be converts practially bustted down the doors. Just using my own diocese as an example. When our Archbishop came to it back in the 70s there were 14 parishes through out the South now we're over sixty and moving close to seventy...and this is just the OCA...other Orthodox Jurisdicitions are growing too. The same thing I think can be said for traditional Anglicanism worldwide, and probably the Catholic Church as well.
Especially interesting are the en masse conversions of whole congregations and even whole denominations...people are fleeing trendy, comfortable, feel good Christianity as soon as they can locate something better.
People are starving for sound theology, stability, and sacredness....ancient is the new new.
Icons, incense, chant...smells and bells...served up with tested sound theology, proven faith and a generous portion of beauty...that's home cooking to a hungry soul.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/26/2007 5:56:24 PM
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GracieRuth
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Dearest Marqez:
You say everyone has their opinions. Of course, and as brothers and sisters in christ, we are certainly not immune from opinions. LOL Feel free to disagree agreeably with me at ny time. Rather than use this post to state an argument, I'd like to offer you a view from the shoes of another.
quote:
ORIGINAL: marquez_1
In a protestant church like Calvary Chapel, all that is taken away, you might see some crosses here and there, maybe a fish or a dove, but there are no fancy robes, traditions etc... You probably couldnt even seperate the head pastor from anyone else in the church if you tried. Oh, I know Calvary Chapel, oh yeah. :D I remember the tent. I've seen old Chuckeroo standing beneath his "graven image" of the dove. (Sorry, had to sneak that in , LOL.) I was a teenage evangelical then, and VERY IN to the Jesus People movement. A huge amount of Calvary Chapel kids were at my own Church, Alamitos Friends, every Monday Night for Bible Study. The thing I found attractive about the movement was NOT its simplicity. It was its desire to emmulate the Apostolic church. (You can almost see the writing on the wall here for me, eh?) In its own small way, it did things like resurrect words such as "elder" (presbyteros), and discuss communal aspects of the early church. Much of the early music was based on the melodic minor scale that sounds so Jewish. I wanted that Apostolicity. The thing was, they didn't go back deeply or purely enough, as I soon found out. You're right, the dress can be superficial, although I have enormous appreiciation for it. The more I studied the history of the early church, especially that of the Apostolic Fathers, the more I realized it was NOTHING like Calvary Chapel or anything Protestant, but rather what I would call "proto-Catholic."
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Its not really about which church is the "right church", there is none. Ah, hooey. We ALL try to find a church MOST in line with what we think is truth. It isn't just all personality style and whether they have a good youth group. quote:
what do you think attracts more people, a big fancy church and lots of rules, traditions etc... or something plain and simple that anyone can feel comfortable in. The particular way you've worded it, neither sounds appealilng to me. I detest big, even with beauty and traditions, and though I like small communities, if its plain then how much reverence can they really have of God?
Ah for a small Catholic church by the sea, where everyone knows your name :D Yeah yeah I know. Dream on. :D
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Grace
In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/26/2007 5:58:12 PM
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GracieRuth
Posts: 69
Joined: 12/5/2006
Status: offline
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I just noticed, this is the STATUES thread. WE are WAY off subject.
I promise to be a good girl Fritzee.
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Grace
In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Worship Statues? - 3/14/2007 10:58:02 AM
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thebreeze
Posts: 162
Joined: 3/13/2007
From: albert lea MN.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
schupfNoodle,
there is nothing in scripture forbidding Christians from entreating other Christians, on earth or in heaven, to intercede in prayer on our behalf.
" come to ME all who are burdened and heavy laden."
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the blood will not cleanse you before you hear,believe,repent, confess Christ and are baptized for the remission of your sins. these are heavens conditions and you must meet them all. mark 16;16 acts 2;38..8;37
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